Star Wars Star Wars: The Last Jedi - THREAD PART 2 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS*

[edgie]

No, JJ threw a lot of things out, like Rey having a historical connection to the force.


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[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Problem with last Jedi is you don't make a big deal about who's Rey parents are in TFA only to tell us she's a nobody in the second film.

Also you cant build up Snoke as some big bad that has mysterious a past and he gets killed like nothing why no back story?

I get it that RJ likes to subvert people's expectations when he makes film but you don't do it in a *ingg trilogy.

Btw Merry Christmas everybody

 

[Exe Gesis]

The reason anything in the OT was a good reveal was because it wasnt teased. We meet Luke Skywalker, we aren't teased who that is. He's just some guy. We meet Vader, we aren't teased who that is. We meet Leia Organa, we aren't teased who she might be, she's a princess of the Organas. When Obi-Wan tells Luke he knew his father, we aren't teased. There's no correlation set up. We just accept all that and follow the unfolding tale/relationships. When it's revealed Vader is Luke's father, and Leia his sister, it's a huge bombshell.

In the ST, everything is too meta. Who Rey and Snoke might be is teased constantly -- both in film and, in these days of social media, Twitter/Reddit is a new media for filmmakers/studios to use to drive interest in movies, and in ancillary books/comics/cartoons. It takes all the wind out of it that a reveal is never going to be a bombshell, or a reward for the entire fanbase. As you have deliberately created segmentation in the fanbase investing in different theories. Whereas in the OT method, the entire fanbase isn't segmented by theories, there's no mystery, so when a twist occurs, the entire fanbase accepts it as one.

Abrams' penchant for creating mystery boxes from the outset and using that as cheese/clickbait, as rattling keys at a child, to derive interest is disingenuous and counter-productive to the writing process as you end up micromanaging the story and characters to suit your agenda, whereas the best writing is always organic where the characters go their own way, the story takes paths it itself demands of you to go. It's hard to explain, but story writers will understand

 

[glenferry23]

In my opinion, TROS is the biggest mess, so yeah, that’s primarily on JJ followed by KK and the Story Group. Sure, RJ’s movie messed with his plans but a better director would roll with it, not try and force things back in that don’t work.

Also, the shameless pandering is on him.

Once again, a very one dimensional viewpoint. If he wasn’t handed such a hot mess to begin with (TLJ), then the subject of “whether to pander” doesn’t exist.

It goes all ways. They’re all culpable.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

It's like when you let your younger brother (ie; Johnson) play with your toys but when you come back (ie; JJ) you find s**t broken so you have to try and fix the mess.

 

[edgie]

My mum used to babysit.

I remember the kid she had one day broke my Darth Maul toy's lighsabre in half.

I tried to fix it.

 

[JackOutback]

Once again, a very one dimensional viewpoint. If he wasn’t handed such a hot mess to begin with (TLJ), then the subject of “whether to pander” doesn’t exist.

It goes all ways. They’re all culpable.

TLJ is only a ‘hot mess’ if you believe there’s only one rigid way the story can go. TLJ is a coherent film on its own right and everything is there to take the story forward. But JJ took it back. That Rey is a nobody could have been a fantastic arc that removes the parentage/chosen one trope that had been around for seven movies. But no, JJ made her a Palpatine. And the killing of Snoke could have made Kylo Ren the big bad rather than a cheap Emperor knock-off. But JJ wanted an Emperor and a Darth Vader arc. JJ had lots of options but TROS is his choices.

 

[glenferry23]

TLJ is only a ‘hot mess’ if you believe there’s only one rigid way the story can go. TLJ is a coherent film on its own right and everything is there to take the story forward. But JJ took it back. That Rey is a nobody could have been a fantastic arc that removes the parentage/chosen one trope that had been around for seven movies. But no, JJ made her a Palpatine. And the killing of Snoke could have made Kylo Ren the big bad rather than a cheap Emperor knock-off. But JJ wanted an Emperor and a Darth Vader arc. JJ had lots of options but TROS is his choices.

You‘re doing it again. Completely one dimensional.

 

[JackOutback]

You‘re doing it again. Completely one dimensional.

You’re using one dimensional completely out of context.

JJ had all the options in the world and he made the decisions for TROS. Yes, RJ may have upset his plans by going in a different direction but that’s what he was asked to do; create his own movie from what came before. That’s what they all signed on for. RJ fulfilled his brief. The flaws of TROS are on JJ, not RJ.

It would be just as disingenuous to blame flaws in TLJ on TFA and JJ.

 

[SM]

Problem with last Jedi is you don't make a big deal about who's Rey parents are in TFA only to tell us she's a nobody in the second film.

Also you cant build up Snoke as some big bad that has mysterious a past and he gets killed like nothing why no back story?

I get it that RJ likes to subvert people's expectations when he makes film but you don't do it in a *ingg trilogy.

Btw Merry Christmas everybody

They didn't make a big deal about reys parents in TFA.

 

[Exe Gesis]

yes they did...

showing how her prarents left her on jakku in the flashback, how the skywalkerlightsaber called to her, how she didnt want to get off jakku cos she is still waiting for her parents, how maz told her looking back is not important but where youre being called forward is, how han said to leia "whos the girl", how snoke/kylo chined in with " who is this girl", etc. plus the obvious symbolism of having her be a poor desert dwelling orphan girl heavily implying a skywalker + lightsaber calling.

 

[glenferry23]

You’re using one dimensional completely out of context.

JJ had all the options in the world and he made the decisions for TROS. Yes, RJ may have upset his plans by going in a different direction but that’s what he was asked to do; create his own movie from what came before. That’s what they all signed on for. RJ fulfilled his brief. The flaws of TROS are on JJ, not RJ.

It would be just as disingenuous to blame flaws in TLJ on TFA and JJ.

I know it’s Christmas Day and you want to exonerate your lord and saviour, but RJ is culpable in this too Jack

They all are. The story group. KK. Abrams. Johnson. Iger. Sections of the fans. It’s a collective effort that got us to where we are. RJ had all the options in the world too and he made the decisions for TLJ. A hot mess ensued.

It should never have been like this.

 

[Exe Gesis]

To be fair....the climate when Disney purchased SW was fans wanting them to go back to OT type of film-making, not the PT type. So they made TFA which is a copy-paste and lacked originality. Post-TFA the climate was fans wanting something a little different not just the same crap again. So they made TLJ. Post-TLJ the climate was fans wanting SW to go back to being like SW. So they made TROS.

 

[Exe Gesis]

i.e., include the fans in there to blame alongside Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson, Iger, and the LFL story group

 

[JackOutback]

i.e., include the fans in there to blame alongside Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson, Iger, and the LFL story group

Forget including them, they are the most culpable.

I know it’s Christmas Day and you want to exonerate your lord and saviour, but RJ is culpable in this too Jack

They all are. The story group. KK. Abrams. Johnson. Iger. It’s a collective effort that got us to where we are. RJ had all the options in the world too and he made the decisions for TLJ. A hot mess ensued.

It should never have been like this.

As a team effort, there’s blame to be shared around but responsibility for each film rests largely with its director. They are the chief creative force. If you hate TLJ, blame RJ primarily, but if you hate TROS, don’t blame RJ primarily. As it stands, I liked what JJ did with TFA, I loved what RJ did with TLJ, I was disappointed with what JJ did with TROS.

 

[glenferry23]

i.e., include the fans in there to blame alongside Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson, Iger, and the LFL story group

Yes true. Edited above.

 

[SM]

yes they did...

showing how her prarents left her on jakku in the flashback, how the skywalkerlightsaber called to her, how she didnt want to get off jakku cos she is still waiting for her parents, how maz told her looking back is not important but where youre being called forward is, how han said to leia "whos the girl", how snoke/kylo chined in with " who is this girl", etc. plus the obvious symbolism of having her be a poor desert dwelling orphan girl heavily implying a skywalker + lightsaber calling.

A lot of those things didn't actually happen in the movie.

 

[edgie]

Here we go again with TLJ is a coherent film in its own right nonsense


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[glenferry23]

Forget including them, they are the most culpable.



As a team effort, there’s blame to be shared around but responsibility for each film rests largely with its director. They are the chief creative force. If you hate TLJ, blame RJ primarily, but if you hate TROS, don’t blame RJ primarily. As it stands, I liked what JJ did with TFA, I loved what RJ did with TLJ, I was disappointed with what JJ did with TROS.

Given what Abrams was then given to work with after TLJ, I can see why the story went where it did In TROS.

 

[JackOutback]

Given what Abrams was then given to work with after TLJ, I can see why the story went where it did In TROS.

I absolutely do not. TLJ delivered a big bad that had broken free of previous convention in Kylo Ren. It delivered a hero in Rey not defined by parentage. It moved away from a straight up Jedi/Sith dynamic. JJ could have done anything with any of those beats if he had the skill or creativity. He didn’t, so he went back to an Emperor and aping the arcs of Luke and Darth Vader. The idea that he was forced into such an uncreative, inconsequential storyline is absurd.

 

[glenferry23]

I absolutely do not. TLJ delivered a big bad that had broken free of previous convention in Kylo Ren. It delivered a hero in Rey not defined by parentage. It moved away from a straight up Jedi/Sith dynamic. JJ could have done anything with any of those beats if he had the skill or creativity. He didn’t, so he went back to an Emperor and aping the arcs of Luke and Darth Vader. The idea that he was forced into such an uncreative, inconsequential storyline is absurd.

The main thing that has been made inconsequential is TLJ itself. It’s almost rendered into Xmen 3 territory, to pretend like it never existed. Which is sad in a way because this s**t just shouldn’t be happening in a Star Wars saga.

What would you have done with episode 9 to deliver a great conclusion? Where should the story have gone (and no, I don’t think a film about broom boy would’ve delivered )

 

[edgie]

Anyone can be a Jedi.

Literally only Luke, Leia, Kylo and Rey demonstrate otherwise.




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[Exe Gesis]

1. I agree wholeheartedly with JackOutback that Abrams didnt "have to" course correct and could've taken the steps forward where RJ had left it. Any good writer (even bad ones) can think of tons of ideas of where to take the story. If only RJ had the balls to keep Luke alive + make Rey join Kylo in the let the past die speech.

2. I don't get the issue with Rey Nobody and Broom Boy. Force powers aren't and were never isolated to bloodlines. Force sensitives have existed for thousands of years and across hundreds of species. Jedi were all various types of creatures too as we saw in the PT.

 

[JackOutback]

The main thing that has been made inconsequential is TLJ itself. It’s almost rendered into Xmen 3 territory, to pretend like it never existed. Which is sad in a way because this s**t just shouldn’t be happening in a Star Wars saga.

What would you have done with episode 9 to deliver a great conclusion? Where should the story have gone (and no, I don’t think a film about broom boy would’ve delivered )

The idea that TLJ has somehow been relegated to ‘dream status’ is clearly absurd. No matter what pivots TROS took, it still exists and nothing in the new movie explicitly contradicts anything that happened before. It’s just a continuation of the childish tantrum we have been seeing for two years, like those that try to pretend the prequels didn’t exist.

As for what I would have done, I generally manage to go into movies without preconceived ideas about what a movie should be about. I don’t prepare them in my head. But the key things that should have been retained were Kylo as the big bad, no resurrected Emperor or Sith, and Rey remaining a nobody and leading a new era of ‘Jedi’ where there’s no Order and no training and no incestuous dynastic legacies where it seems every major character in the films got it on at some point. That gives you a foundation for future movies.

Anyone can be a Jedi.

Literally only Luke, Leia, Kylo and Rey demonstrate otherwise.




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You mean, literally the focus of all nine movies. The entire saga has been predicated on dynasties and legacies and chosen ones. When it was just Skywalkers, maybe you could make that argument, now it’s Palpatines as well. It would be nice for a Star Wars movie to move away from that plot beat for once.

 

[glenferry23]

The idea that TLJ has somehow been relegated to ‘dream status’ is clearly absurd. No matter what pivots TROS took, it still exists and nothing in the new movie explicitly contradicts anything that happened before. It’s just a continuation of the childish tantrum we have been seeing for two years, like those that try to pretend the prequels didn’t exist.

As for what I would have done, I generally manage to go into movies without preconceived ideas about what a movie should be about. I don’t prepare them in my head. But the key things that should have been retained were Kylo as the big bad, no resurrected Emperor or Sith, and Rey remaining a nobody and leading a new era of ‘Jedi’ where there’s no Order and no training and no incestuous dynastic legacies where it seems every major character in the films got it on at some point. That gives you a foundation for future movies.



You mean, literally the focus of all nine movies. The entire saga has been predicated on dynasties and legacies and chosen ones. When it was just Skywalkers, maybe you could make that argument, now it’s Palpatines as well. It would be nice for a Star Wars movie to move away from that plot beat for once.

Not as absurd as you think Jack. Rightly or wrongly, there were many “corrections/retcons/contradictions/erasing” moments in TROS. Whatever you want to to call it, it already happened.

And you keep missing my point. I’m saying it shouldn’t have come to this. RJ, Abrams and co should have had a framework in place, sure they all make their own films within the confines of that. But as long as the overarching story keeps ticking over.

In the absence of that, RJ took his film in a direction that veered away. Some of his terrible decisions I’m glad were corrected. It absolutely needed it.

But some of his better concepts, Rey being a nobody etc, I’m dissatisfied that it was shoehorned back into a Palpatine.

These are the consequences of lack of said planning. Making it up as they go along.