Star Wars Star Wars: The Last Jedi - THREAD PART 2 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS*

Apr 27, 2008
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Haha, seriously this is the height of delusion, you've lost the plot. Do it - please post the youtubes of you and a mate screwing around and we'll decide which is 'better'.

People were right to praise it, easily one of the better scenes in the movie. What you have an issue with is the fight choreography, which doesn't = "the scene" and isn't what people were praising. Must admit I didn't notice the glaring misses and running away etc first time I was watching it, and yeah there are some doozies in there. But as people have said, you might as well pot literally every large group fight scene ever filmed. Go back and watch a few that are ballsy enough to use wide angle shots as was done here, you will see redshirts jumping around, swinging at nothing and waiting for their turn to attack in every single one.



Maybe poor choreography. Poor technical film making? Not at all. One of the most visually striking scenes in the film and as mentioned doesn't do anything that similar scenes in other movies haven't in order to have one/few beat many.

That's nice fella, but I'm talking about Star Wars here.

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Apr 27, 2008
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Yes, and as we all know, Star Wars doesn't include films :drunk:

When do think you'll be able to post footage of you and a mate mucking round with llightsabre effects?

There's red shirts in Star Wars?

Tonight, if you insist on being pedantic. I guess my throwaway similies went over your head like a praetorian guard's swing.

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Mar 1, 2007
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There's red shirts in Star Wars?

Tonight, if you insist on being pedantic. I guess my throwaway similies went over your head like a praetorian guard's swing.

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Absolutely. A character who's only purpose on screen is to die? Every stormtrooper/guard ever committed to film in this series.

Cheers, can't wait to have a look tomorrow :thumbsu:
 
Apr 27, 2008
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Absolutely. A character who's only purpose on screen is to die? Every stormtrooper/guard ever committed to film in this series.

Cheers, can't wait to have a look tomorrow :thumbsu:

I'm talking lightsabre/melee scenes, but don't let me stand in the way of your promotion, corporal pedantic.

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In what way can multiple guards not even attempting to make swings for the body be anything other than terrible scripting? Or the characters not using force abilities?

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As has been pointed out several times, if that's the standard you want to hold movies to, you are going to have to reassess some of your favourite action or superhero movies.
 

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In what way can multiple guards not even attempting to make swings for the body be anything other than terrible scripting? Or the characters not using force abilities?

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In a Hollywood way. It really is as simple as that. Don't read any more into it.
I seem to recall Luke on a sail barge 'kicking' a guard and clearly getting fresh air.
Just about every single Hollywood fight scene where the heroes are outnumbered, involves some form of the attackers standing back to wait their turn, or making poor attempts at attacking that are easily rebuffed/avoided.
 
Apr 27, 2008
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In a Hollywood way. It really is as simple as that. Don't read any more into it.
I seem to recall Luke on a sail barge 'kicking' a guard and clearly getting fresh air.
Just about every single Hollywood fight scene where the heroes are outnumbered, involves some form of the attackers standing back to wait their turn, or making poor attempts at attacking that are easily rebuffed/avoided.

He did, but isn't down to choreography, moreso that Mark Hamill isn't an action star. Also, nobody said that was the best fight scene of the saga so I feel no need to pull it apart. The best part of that was Carrie Fisher's bottom.

As has been pointed out several times, if that's the standard you want to hold movies to, you are going to have to reassess some of your favourite action or superhero movies.

I'm very critical of these things, because I know I can do just as well from resources that don't register on the atomic scale of what the big productions have. Doesn't mean I don't like a movie just cause a fight scene is sloppy. I don't have to reassess anything. TLJ is a bad movie all around that. I wouldn't be behaving so fervently over this if this scene wasn't met which such an overwhelmingly positive reaction. I don't harp on about Canto Blight for that reason, most people know it's average. I have nothing to add, or difference my opinion from many others.
 
Saw this and thought people would enjoy. Was in Coles and saw this shelf, TLJ on special, cheaper than tfa or R1. :p
dbf58af3b0c66d89cd1e941997f7f8a6.jpg
 
Mar 1, 2007
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I'm talking lightsabre/melee scenes, but don't let me stand in the way of your promotion, corporal pedantic.

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The imperial guards in the Snoke throne room scene are redshirts/cannon fodder/[insert your preferred term]. And you call me pedantic lol.

Unless that isn't what you're talking about? I'm honestly not sure what you're arguing at this point.
 
Mar 1, 2007
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Here you are Bourbons, have at it. I hope you draw particular attention to the unnecessarily high swings.



Cheers, good on you for fronting up.

You honestly think that choreography is better than what was shown in the throne room fight? The high swing wasn't too bad, it's the slow motion spins into the delicate taps of the sabers that really draws the eye IMO. At least in TLJ they look like they're actually exerting themselves as you're watching it in real time. You also need to imagine if it was the 2 in this video vs 6 other guys and have a think about how you would choreograph that - unless the narrative is the 2 get overwhelmed almost instantly, it's almost impossible to do in a wide shot unless you have people standing back and doing things they shouldn't.

Anyway, this is what I meant with the delusion comment. You really think if this choreography somehow made it into a blockbuster movie it wouldn't be laughed off the internet? Let's go the extra step and imagine it was put up in a looped gif for people to dissect frame by frame as has happened for TLJ. I'm honestly not trying to have a crack at you but come on man, its ludicrous.

Not that you're on your own. Applies generally too I guess, but the response to TLJ in particular never ceased to amaze me with all the complete nobodies on the internet who could make a $200M blockbuster so much better than trained professionals who have worked in the industry their entire adult lives.
 
Apr 27, 2008
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bourbons

My point is, that I, with the resources they had, would have crafted a superior fight scene that didn't rely on nonsensical acts to progress. That may come across as arrogant, but I know what I can do. Having the time and money and people power is the biggest hurdle. Amateur movies are the hardest 'amateur' things to do.

It's a bad scene that I've taken apart critically before. It's not good, and it sets a low standard. I made that video of mine with no training and no budget, a dozen years ago, before smart technology exploded and apps made special effect editing far easier than it used to be, and yet a sword literally disappears in to thin air in TLJ. I'm not talking about remaking the whole ST, I'm talking about improving one action scene that changes nothing in the plot.

PS: The narrative would be that the 2 use their force abilities and improved acrobatics to separate themselves from a rush attack.
 
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bourbons

My point is, that I, with the resources they had, would have crafted a superior fight scene that didn't rely on nonsensical acts to progress.

Would you?

How many fight scenes have you previously choreographed? Anything I might have seen? What sort of production was it, what was the budget? Were they on sound stages or on location? Composite shots containing VFX or all practical? Were techniques like wires incorporated? Lighting? Multi-cam? 1 on 1 or group?

I feel like you probably would have mentioned it by now if you worked in this area, so I'm assuming you don't and apologies if that's incorrect - but the idea that some random off the street, given the required budget, could just stroll onto a hollywood set and perform a job like fight choreography better than someone who has been working at that level for most of their adult life is beyond laughable, mate. You have lost the plot.

That may come across as arrogant, but I know what I can do. Having the time and money and people power is the biggest hurdle. Amateur movies are the hardest 'amateur' things to do.

It's a bad scene that I've taken apart critically before. It's not good, and it sets a low standard. I made that video of mine with no training and no budget, a dozen years ago, before smart technology exploded and apps made special effect editing far easier than it used to be, and yet a sword literally disappears in to thin air in TLJ. I'm not talking about remaking the whole ST, I'm talking about improving one action scene that changes nothing in the plot.

PS: The narrative would be that the 2 use their force abilities and improved acrobatics to separate themselves from a rush attack.

Well ok, thats not exactly what you said originally

I could do better. I seriously could. I can post youtubes of a mate and I screwing around with lightsabre effects from a dozen years ago on par with that.

Rest assured, the choreography in that video of you and your mate is not "on par" with the fight scene from TLJ, its miles behind.

I agree the weapon disappearing is bad - but again, it's something I didn't notice (who the hell would) when watching the first few times at normal speed. The idea that people should have noticed something like that and therefore not have praised the scene is ridiculous. Very possible that its not even a mistake or something that was missed - might be in there to cover some other issue that actually would have been noticeable.

Also agree with you that really the 2 force users shouldn't have even gone hand to hand with them, but thats not what you were talking about - you were talking about being able to film a better fight sequence than the one we got.
 
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Apr 27, 2008
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Chael Sonnen: Moral Champion
The notion that because someone hasn't done something heard of makes them no good at something is silly. There's thousands of musicians with better technical ability than famous musicians, do you dismiss them because they only have a dozen YouTube views? Do I dismiss every critics view of Episode 1 because you aren't Roger Ebert, so you are actually wrong? Uninformed? The idea that you know more about what makes a good movie is ludicrous?

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Mar 1, 2007
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Take my ten seconds, and I'll pick ten seconds out of that for fairness, then maybe we'll compare? See if it is on par?

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I thought we just did.

The notion that because someone hasn't done something heard of makes them no good at something is silly. There's thousands of musicians with better technical ability than famous musicians, do you dismiss them because they only have a dozen YouTube views? Do I dismiss every critics view of Episode 1 because you aren't Roger Ebert, so you are actually wrong? Uninformed? The idea that you know more about what makes a good movie is ludicrous?

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No blanket rules, but yeah I would say the vast majority of musicians with a dozen views on YouTube would have less technical ability than Dave Grohl for example. If that's the allegory, your fight video might be someone satisfactorily playing a guitar - doesn't mean you can jump on stage and melt 15,000 faces with a 3 minute solo.

Film criticism is a bit more nebulous, but yeah in general I would expect someone who has years of experience to be able provide a review with more insight and reference than someone doing it for the first time.
 
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