Analysis State of the game. Fitzroy 1996 vs GWS 2020

Remove this Banner Ad

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
A lot has been said about how footy is going and the lack of talent and skills. Fair enough too.
I thought it would be interesting to compare the team considered probably the worst in history.
1 win and an average losing margin of around 50 points
Vs
GWS who everyone considers to have talent coming out their arse.
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
Keep in mind GWS has a million dollar coach, top assistants, a special place for the draftees to live, top facilities, bloody welfare officers, conditioning staff, dieticians and whatever else you can think of.
Fitzroy well under the cap and had f**k all!
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
Fitzroy list 1996

Brad Boyd
10 Aug 7124yr186cm86kg544381660Parade College/Bundoora/Collingwood U19sB&F: 1995
2Chris Johnson30 May 7619yr180cm88kg3748322195Jacana/Northern U18#7 National 1993
3Anthony Mellington27 Jul 7421yr187cm84kg62018222Shepparton FC#18 Pre-Season 1994
4Stephen Paxman4 Dec 7025yr188cm94kg811432140East Doncaster
5John Barker19 Feb 7521yr194cm93kg26302190Pascoe Vale/St Joseph's College (North Melbourne)/Northern U18#25 National 1992
7Jarrod Molloy12 May 7619yr189cm98kg4041319130Box Hill/Parade College/Northern U18Father-Son 1993
8Martin Pike14 Nov 7223yr189cm92kg383512256Norwood#9 National 1992
9Jason Ramsey24 Jan 7521yr189cm87kg000200Port Adelaide (SANFL)#4 Pre-Season 1994
10Jeff Hogg15 Oct 6629yr190cm89kg17034071470Mount Waverley SC
11Anthony McGregor5 Jul 7223yr185cm80kg3585630Prahran#28 Mid-Season 1992
12Matthew Primus12 Jan 7521yr198cm109kg0002052Grovedale/Geelong U18/Norwood#2 National 1995
13Brent Frewen20 Oct 7718yr195cm85kg000200South Mildura/Bendigo U18#4 Pre-Season 1995
14Frank Bizzotto30 May 7124yr178cm80kg3441400West Preston
15Robert McMahon28 Jul 7718yr191cm85kg000210Moe/Gippsland U18#6 National 1994
17Simon Hawking5 Mar 7323yr193cm86kg4415116150Ivanhoe Grammar/Bulleen-Templestowe/Fitzroy U19s
19Darren Holmes3 Sep 7025yr188cm83kg5680710Lavington
20Mick Dwyer16 Nov 6827yr178cm81kg806114830LyndaleGardiner: 1992
22Scott Bamford23 Jun 7421yr183cm68kg0002262North Adelaide#4 National 1995
23Simon Atkins23 Dec 6827yr180cm88kg14983381961Wynyard
24Trent Cummings28 Dec 7322yr182cm84kg161301150Central District#6 National 1993
25John McCarthy30 Mar 6729yr185cm89kg1451671218110North Hobart
26Matthew Manfield14 Apr 7719yr192cm88kg100400Woodville-West Torrens#24 National 1994
27Brett Chandler11 Jul 7520yr173cm73kg12001620Doncaster Heights/Eastern U18Supp List 1994
28Peter Doyle24 Aug 7322yr179cm80kg510710Union#21 National 1989
29Brad Cassidy25 Jul 7619yr185cm75kg00014100North Ballarat U18/Horsham UnitedFoundation 1994
30Nick Carter28 Apr 7817yr179cm86kg0001740Golden Square/Bendigo U18#20 National 1995
31Matthew Dent17 Jan 7224yr185cm86kg28301960Sturt#52 National 1993
32Jason Baldwin7 Nov 6926yr180cm78kg1143541110Coldstream
33Rowan Warfe23 Jun 7619yr190cm89kg10101600Golden Square/Bendigo U18#9 National 1993
34Danny Morton1 Jul 7322yr175cm64kg14801690North Adelaide#70 National 1992
35Brett Cook19 Apr 7323yr194cm97kg2172400West Broken Hill/Norwood#20 National 1991
36Wayne Lamb19 Oct 7223yr173cm71kg18102330Parkmore/Dingley
37John Rombotis13 Oct 7619yr181cm85kg41022152Caulfield Grammar/Sandringham U18#23 National 1994
38Adam McCarthy14 Feb 7224yr185cm81kg28120200Scoresby
39Marty Warry5 Jan 7719yr178cm78kg3005110Ormond/Sandringham U18#35 National 1994
40Shane Clayton24 Oct 7817yr186cm87kg0001310Bundoora/Northern U18#16 National 1995
41Peter Bird30 Jan 7620yr176cm
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
A lot has been said about how footy is going and the lack of talent and skills. Fair enough too.
I thought it would be interesting to compare the team considered probably the worst in history.
1 win and an average losing margin of around 50 points
Vs
GWS who everyone considers to have talent coming out their arse.
The talent pool has clearly been spread too thin, but in general I think the skills are ok - its just the time and space to execute those skills is so hard to find these days.
Also, players are so adept at scragging, nullifying, infringing without conceding a free kick, that it is hard to get clean hands at the contest.

Possibly not a popular opinion overall but I'm with those that think a reduction in on-field numbers is probably the only way to reduce congestion and open the game up.

The Giants are about as talented as most of the better clubs in the comp apart from Richmond; they've got a handful of A-graders and the rest plug the gaps.
If the AFL is dead set on moving forward with 18 teams then perhaps a reduction in on-field numbers/list sizes - apart from reducing congestion - is one way of redistributing incoming young talent around the comp and improving the overall product, too ..
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
Fitzroy list 1996

Brad Boyd
10 Aug 7124yr186cm86kg544381660Parade College/Bundoora/Collingwood U19sB&F: 1995
2Chris Johnson30 May 7619yr180cm88kg3748322195Jacana/Northern U18#7 National 1993
3Anthony Mellington27 Jul 7421yr187cm84kg62018222Shepparton FC#18 Pre-Season 1994
4Stephen Paxman4 Dec 7025yr188cm94kg811432140East Doncaster
5John Barker19 Feb 7521yr194cm93kg26302190Pascoe Vale/St Joseph's College (North Melbourne)/Northern U18#25 National 1992
7Jarrod Molloy12 May 7619yr189cm98kg4041319130Box Hill/Parade College/Northern U18Father-Son 1993
8Martin Pike14 Nov 7223yr189cm92kg383512256Norwood#9 National 1992
9Jason Ramsey24 Jan 7521yr189cm87kg000200Port Adelaide (SANFL)#4 Pre-Season 1994
10Jeff Hogg15 Oct 6629yr190cm89kg17034071470Mount Waverley SC
11Anthony McGregor5 Jul 7223yr185cm80kg3585630Prahran#28 Mid-Season 1992
12Matthew Primus12 Jan 7521yr198cm109kg0002052Grovedale/Geelong U18/Norwood#2 National 1995
13Brent Frewen20 Oct 7718yr195cm85kg000200South Mildura/Bendigo U18#4 Pre-Season 1995
14Frank Bizzotto30 May 7124yr178cm80kg3441400West Preston
15Robert McMahon28 Jul 7718yr191cm85kg000210Moe/Gippsland U18#6 National 1994
17Simon Hawking5 Mar 7323yr193cm86kg4415116150Ivanhoe Grammar/Bulleen-Templestowe/Fitzroy U19s
19Darren Holmes3 Sep 7025yr188cm83kg5680710Lavington
20Mick Dwyer16 Nov 6827yr178cm81kg806114830LyndaleGardiner: 1992
22Scott Bamford23 Jun 7421yr183cm68kg0002262North Adelaide#4 National 1995
23Simon Atkins23 Dec 6827yr180cm88kg14983381961Wynyard
24Trent Cummings28 Dec 7322yr182cm84kg161301150Central District#6 National 1993
25John McCarthy30 Mar 6729yr185cm89kg1451671218110North Hobart
26Matthew Manfield14 Apr 7719yr192cm88kg100400Woodville-West Torrens#24 National 1994
27Brett Chandler11 Jul 7520yr173cm73kg12001620Doncaster Heights/Eastern U18Supp List 1994
28Peter Doyle24 Aug 7322yr179cm80kg510710Union#21 National 1989
29Brad Cassidy25 Jul 7619yr185cm75kg00014100North Ballarat U18/Horsham UnitedFoundation 1994
30Nick Carter28 Apr 7817yr179cm86kg0001740Golden Square/Bendigo U18#20 National 1995
31Matthew Dent17 Jan 7224yr185cm86kg28301960Sturt#52 National 1993
32Jason Baldwin7 Nov 6926yr180cm78kg1143541110Coldstream
33Rowan Warfe23 Jun 7619yr190cm89kg10101600Golden Square/Bendigo U18#9 National 1993
34Danny Morton1 Jul 7322yr175cm64kg14801690North Adelaide#70 National 1992
35Brett Cook19 Apr 7323yr194cm97kg2172400West Broken Hill/Norwood#20 National 1991
36Wayne Lamb19 Oct 7223yr173cm71kg18102330Parkmore/Dingley
37John Rombotis13 Oct 7619yr181cm85kg41022152Caulfield Grammar/Sandringham U18#23 National 1994
38Adam McCarthy14 Feb 7224yr185cm81kg28120200Scoresby
39Marty Warry5 Jan 7719yr178cm78kg3005110Ormond/Sandringham U18#35 National 1994
40Shane Clayton24 Oct 7817yr186cm87kg0001310Bundoora/Northern U18#16 National 1995
41Peter Bird30 Jan 7620yr176cm
It's not the worst list I've seen (and looks better on paper than I remember), but they were an extremely dispirited bunch in that last season ...

I still reckon Sydney pre-Barrassi were one of the worst teams I ever saw, they were genuinely woeful for a while there ...
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
It's not the worst list I've seen (and looks better on paper than I remember), but they were an extremely dispirited bunch in that last season ...

I still reckon Sydney pre-Barrassi were one of the worst teams I ever saw, they were genuinely woeful for a while there ...
They were shocking. Great to flog though cause it would be on TV
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
The talent pool has clearly been spread too thin, but in general I think the skills are ok - its just the time and space to execute those skills is so hard to find these days.
Also, players are so adept at scragging, nullifying, infringing without conceding a free kick, that it is hard to get clean hands at the contest.

Possibly not a popular opinion overall but I'm with those that think a reduction in on-field numbers is probably the only way to reduce congestion and open the game up.

The Giants are about as talented as most of the better clubs in the comp apart from Richmond; they've got a handful of A-graders and the rest plug the gaps.
If the AFL is dead set on moving forward with 18 teams then perhaps a reduction in on-field numbers/list sizes - apart from reducing congestion - is one way of redistributing incoming young talent around the comp and improving the overall product, too ..
I think the skills are a problem. Kids don't kick out on the street anymore, Auskick doesn't teach anything, they don't learn to kick or handball on their left and like kicking grubbers and snaps more than drop punts.
Their will always be exceptions, but overall it's something I've noticed.
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
They were shocking. Great to flog though cause it would be on TV
mid-80s Saints also perennial losers, everyone's 2nd favourite team out of sheer sympathy around that period - but tbh I never really saw a lot them play - and they did have Tony Lockett ... as blokes like Harvey, Burke and Loewe started contributing more heading into the 90s they were more and more competitive, but you'd basically expect 8 premiership points every year from them for quite a while there ....

Anyway your overall list comparison between GWS and the ill-fated Lions of 96 is a bit of an eye-opener Spazz - I'd say that eyeing the two groups, GWS clearly have better top-end talent, but the Lions list actually looks deeper in some ways; with a bit more positivity and support they would have had a pretty decent group of younger players to build on for a future that was never to be ..
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
I think the skills are a problem. Kids don't kick out on the street anymore, Auskick doesn't teach anything, they don't learn to kick or handball on their left and like kicking grubbers and snaps more than drop punts.
Their will always be exceptions, but overall it's something I've noticed.
hmm, your point on the non-dominant side skills is certainly true; the majority of players will do anything to get back onto their preferred foot these days, whereas most were at least somewhat proficient if forced onto the wrong boot back in those days ...

The game used to have a lot more contested marking, too; I remember most teams would have at least a couple absolute markologists; Peter Johnston at Geelong, even Mick Turner was extremely strong overhead.
Guys like Pickering for Richmond, just a solid average player but such sticky fingers.

Don't get that as often these days, and I reckon that is mainly due to refinements in scragging over the years - I actually think the umpires have been slightly better at protecting the man in front going for mark over the past couple of seasons, but it's something that is in the hands of the umps; good marks must be given a fair run at plying their trade or else it is another aspect of the game that will go to seed ..
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
mid-80s Saints also perennial losers, everyone's 2nd favourite team out of sheer sympathy around that period - but tbh I never really saw a lot them play - and they did have Tony Lockett ... as blokes like Harvey, Burke and Loewe started contributing more heading into the 90s they were more and more competitive, but you'd basically expect 8 premiership points every year from them for quite a while there ....

Anyway your overall list comparison between GWS and the ill-fated Lions of 96 is a bit of an eye-opener Spazz - I'd say that eyeing the two groups, GWS clearly have better top-end talent, but the Lions list actually looks deeper in some ways; with a bit more positivity and support they would have had a pretty decent group of younger players to build on for a future that was never to be ..
Yeah its not that bad ay! Even though the would of lost the best of the young players if they continued to go on.
Don't think the our population is being enough to sustain 18 teams at a really high standard.
Yeah it's growing but much of its immigration.
Need to find away to get Indians, Asians Kiwis etc to get into footy way more or i dont think it will improve.
Unless as you say 16 a side might help a bit.
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
Yeah its not that bad ay! Even though the would of lost the best of the young players if they continued to go on.
Don't think the our population is being enough to sustain 18 teams at a really high standard.
Yeah it's growing but much of its immigration.
Need to find away to get Indians, Asians Kiwis etc to get into footy way more or i dont think it will improve.
Unless as you say 16 a side might help a bit.
I've loved the emergence of a few African blokes over the past decade or so, would love to see that trend continue too
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
hmm, your point on the non-dominant side skills is certainly true; the majority of players will do anything to get back onto their preferred foot these days, whereas most were at least somewhat proficient if forced onto the wrong boot back in those days ...

The game used to have a lot more contested marking, too; I remember most teams would have at least a couple absolute markologists; Peter Johnston at Geelong, even Mick Turner was extremely strong overhead.
Guys like Pickering for Richmond, just a solid average player but such sticky fingers.

Don't get that as often these days, and I reckon that is mainly due to refinements in scragging over the years - I actually think the umpires have been slightly better at protecting the man in front going for mark over the past couple of seasons, but it's something that is in the hands of the umps; good marks must be given a fair run at plying their trade or else it is another aspect of the game that will go to seed ..
Yeah, people seem to think the umpiring is soft now and there's way too many frees.
Its actually the opposite. Back in the day they used to pay free kicks for everything.
Every one on one marking contest, if the player in front didn't mark it, over half the time they'd just call a free kick.
 

thecatattack

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 2, 2011
12,969
10,350
Hell
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
Indiana Pacers, Celta Vigo, LA Rams
Sorry, any team in the league now would beat Fitzroy, yes including Adelaide.

24yrs in advancements of skills, training, medicine, gameplan etc would see any team in the league beat them and most teams from eras gone by.
 

Goggin Our Best

Premiership Player
May 23, 2011
4,642
6,311
sydney
AFL Club
Geelong
Fitzroy were diabolical

I actually went to a Fitzroy v Geelong game at the Western Oval ( that was their home ground at the time ) it would have been the Roys last year in the comp

And you could not lose to them - because they were that bad - i was totally relaxed at the game - i thought to myself - even Geel cant botch this today ( because there is plenty of skeletons in the Cats closet when it comes to shock losses )

No - Fitzroy they were like death warmed up
 

Spazz Cat

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 10, 2013
14,870
20,275
AFL Club
Geelong
Fitzroy were diabolical

I actually went to a Fitzroy v Geelong game at the Western Oval ( that was their home ground at the time ) it would have been the Roys last year in the comp

And you could not lose to them - because they were that bad - i was totally relaxed at the game - i thought to myself - even Geel cant botch this today ( because there is plenty of skeletons in the Cats closet when it comes to shock losses )

No - Fitzroy they were like death warmed up
Its not the point I was trying to make though.
If you just look at the talent on the ground it's not really too bad to the talent on the ground now.
And they were terrible.
Obviously they were the worst team going around that year.
And obviously they didn't have the coaching and medical of today.
Even back then they were soooo far behind.
 

Tony Barber

Club Legend
Apr 6, 2017
2,284
3,377
AFL Club
Geelong
I remember all of that pretty well (I think)
In 94' I worked with a girl who was a Fitzroy nut. And for the younger folk here, it was hard to find one of those.

Her dad was the Fitzroy timekeeper. And she knew they were in a lot of trouble.
They couldn't pay anyone.

And then the afl put in the revenue rule.
You had to prove you could fund the club to a certain level. They couldn't. Game over.

Fast forward a decade and the afl wouldn't have let them fall over.
Really sh*t timing for those supporters.
 

dazbroncos

Max Rooke Appreciation Society
Oct 9, 2010
37,865
57,484
Los Angeles and Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
Denver Broncos, Red Bull Racing
I remember all of that pretty well (I think)
In 94' I worked with a girl who was a Fitzroy nut. And for the younger folk here, it was hard to find one of those.

Her dad was the Fitzroy timekeeper. And she knew they were in a lot of trouble.
They couldn't pay anyone.

And then the afl put in the revenue rule.
You had to prove you could fund the club to a certain level. They couldn't. Game over.

Fast forward a decade and the afl wouldn't have let them fall over.
Really sh*t timing for those supporters.
And now considering the AFL pump 500+ million into the expansion clubs and the things like COLA... the Royboys got the massive shaft.

GO Catters
 

afl genius

Club Legend
May 3, 2006
2,019
694
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
Indiana Pacers
I still reckon Sydney pre-Barrassi were one of the worst teams I ever saw, they were genuinely woeful for a while there ...
Listened to a podcast recently about the swans in those late 80s early 90s days and when Barrasi came to the swans. Think it was the CEO or treasurer had a rented portable office way out at the show grounds and on his first day he went outside for a smoke and a camel was walking by took a sh*t and kept walking, just highlights the lack of facilities. Once Barrasi got there he was shocked at hoe unfit they all were and lack of skills. He told each player to start each training season with 50, 30 metre kicks on both right and left foot before starting the session and apparently they all made comments that they rarely even kicked 50 times for the entirety of ALL training sessions. The guy being interviewed said that footys were flying every where as most of the list couldn't hit a 30 metre target on either foot. Probably a fair reason why they were hopeless
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
Listened to a podcast recently about the swans in those late 80s early 90s days and when Barrasi came to the swans. Think it was the CEO or treasurer had a rented portable office way out at the show grounds and on his first day he went outside for a smoke and a camel was walking by took a sh*t and kept walking, just highlights the lack of facilities. Once Barrasi got there he was shocked at hoe unfit they all were and lack of skills. He told each player to start each training season with 50, 30 metre kicks on both right and left foot before starting the session and apparently they all made comments that they rarely even kicked 50 times for the entirety of ALL training sessions. The guy being interviewed said that footys were flying every where as most of the list couldn't hit a 30 metre target on either foot. Probably a fair reason why they were hopeless
begs the question as to just what the hell Gary Buckenara was doing during his time there ...
 

Turbocat

Premium Platinum
Dec 10, 2003
43,213
41,747
Newtown
AFL Club
Geelong
It's not the worst list I've seen (and looks better on paper than I remember), but they were an extremely dispirited bunch in that last season ...

I still reckon Sydney pre-Barrassi were one of the worst teams I ever saw, they were genuinely woeful for a while there ...
For a couple of years there, Brisbane Bears where not even worthy to smell the stink of Sydney... but we are really trying to seperate cold from cold..once it gets to a certain low temp does it matter , you are just an icy pole
 
Last edited:

catscollector

Club Legend
Jun 30, 2018
1,533
1,704
AFL Club
Geelong
That top end of Fitzroy really wasn't too bad at all.
Some champions of the game there.
No money though and some even likened their facilities to that of an amateur footy club which is just ridiculous when you think about it. To be an AFL team and be so poorly run by their administration.

I think Geelong had an opportunity to get Matthew Primus if I remember correctly. What a ruckman he ended up becoming.
 

Cursed Cat

sticky fingers
Sep 15, 2005
9,657
12,730
Cairns
AFL Club
Geelong
That top end of Fitzroy really wasn't too bad at all.
Some champions of the game there.
No money though and some even likened their facilities to that of an amateur footy club which is just ridiculous when you think about it. To be an AFL team and be so poorly run by their administration.
once Roos bailed it was the beginning of the end; they seemed to lose a classy experienced player every year toward the end; Barwick, Pert, Osborne, Lynch; all their better players understandably sought greener pastures..

that 1996 list looks ok on paper, but a lot of the bigger names were actually still finding their feet at AFL level; Chris Johnson, John Barker, Jarrod Molloy and Matthew Primus had their best years ahead of them ...
 

Top Bottom