Stats lie...

[hbk_aus]

I think its time people stopped using stats as a back-up to their theories/arguments about certain players. You dont have to watch much footy these days to realise that STATS DONT MEAN SH*T.

Comments like "Tenace only had 5 kicks, 4 handpasses.", or "Enright had the lowest possessions, drop him" are naive. There is so much more that the coaches and experts take notice of, especially when it comes to backmen. Spoils, taking up valuable opposition forward space, pressure, hassling, diving on loose balls, negating your direct opponents influence, etc are not seen in any stats column...ok, rant over...

 

[sarah.13]

I think its time people stopped using stats as a back-up to their theories/arguments about certain players. You dont have to watch much footy these days to realise that STATS DONT MEAN SH*T.

Comments like "Tenace only had 5 kicks, 4 handpasses.", or "Enright had the lowest possessions, drop him" are naive. There is so much more that the coaches and experts take notice of, especially when it comes to backmen. Spoils, taking up valuable opposition forward space, pressure, hassling, diving on loose balls, negating your direct opponents influence, etc are not seen in any stats column...ok, rant over...

Good rant. People have been suggesting that Varcoe be dropped because of his low possession in the past few games,but his chasing down of players have caused several turnovers every game.These turnovers result in goals for us.
There are no stats for chasing but he is a very valuable player in our forward line

 

[Solstice Raver]

Agreed. There are no stats to support how effective a tagger Cameron "The Sherminator" Ling is either. Possibly one of the most influential players in the side (thanks for coming to your senses Bomber) which the stats don't necessarily support.

Varcs is the same. His defensive pressure in the forward line is second to none in the side.

 

[hbk_aus]

Good rant. People have been suggesting that Varcoe be dropped because of his low possession in the past few games,but his chasing down of players have caused several turnovers every game.These turnovers result in goals for us.
There are no stats for chasing but he is a very valuable player in our forward line

Yeah i forgot Varcoe, thats another one that people say he gets no possessions/not enough goals, but he is doing so many other things for the team.

 

[CF]

I don't think stats should be disregarded but should be used in conjuction with other indicators. Stats never pick up the one percenters which you are talking about. Similarly if a player gets 30 disposals but 20 are uncontested then that also paints a different picture too. I would suspect that coaches take into account how well the player is going in relation to the gameplan and fulfilling theor function within the plan.

 

[hbk_aus]

Oh what a lovely mature retort, u give us Cat fans such a knowledgable and well-spoken reputation...

Having played at a fairly high level locally for over 10 years, i tend to think that i know a little bit about footy, although i dont claim to be an absolute expert. But given that majority of replies on this thread support me, and the FACT that these players (Enright, Tenace, Varcoe) are being continuously given a game by the match committee (so they dont have a ****** clue either?) in the best team in the land currently, I cant see many holes in my argument...

P.S. This was a reply to Tin Can Sams outburst, which has since been deleted quite rightly...

 

[hbk_aus]

I don't think stats should be disregarded but should be used in conjuction with other indicators. Stats never pick up the one percenters which you are talking about. Similarly if a player gets 30 disposals but 20 are uncontested then that also paints a different picture too. I would suspect that coaches take into account how well the player is going in relation to the gameplan and fulfilling theor function within the plan.

Exactly my point, cheers.

 

[Bakes]

some stats are good. contested posessions, tackles, shepherd (should be done), clanger, in and out 50. possibly handball receives.

 

[Shell]

Good rant. People have been suggesting that Varcoe be dropped because of his low possession in the past few games,but his chasing down of players have caused several turnovers every game.These turnovers result in goals for us.
There are no stats for chasing but he is a very valuable player in our forward line

Agree. It took him a while to win me over, with him getting no.5, but I'm pretty much convinced now.

Flipped between the radio stations on the way home and almost drove off the road when this moron called in and bagged Varcoe. He may not be racking up the possessions, but like you said, his relentless pressure, running, chasing, tap ons, etc is very important and cannot be underrated.

 

[hbk_aus]

some stats are good. contested posessions, tackles, shepherd (should be done), clanger, in and out 50. possibly handball receives.

Even handball receives can lie, has the players sprinted 100 metres to help a team-mate out, or has he jogged around the back of the ruckman to get the easy handball?

Tackles have also always intrigued me. If u aim for a certain amount of tackles and achieve that target, does that mean u were chasing a*se and behind your man all day? Or if u dont achieve the target, does that mean that u were slack and not aggressive enough, or did u just have more of the ball in an uncontested type of game?

 

[hbk_aus]

Agree. It took him a while to win me over, with him getting no.5, but I'm pretty much convinced now.

Flipped between the radio stations on the way home and almost drove off the road when this moron called in and bagged Varcoe. He may not be racking up the possessions, but like you said, his relentless pressure, running, chasing, tap ons, etc is very important and cannot be underrated.

Its why people bag Aaron Davey, when experts can see the value of his pressure, others, such as that radio caller, can not see past goals/possessions...

 

[Bakes]

Tackles have also always intrigued me. If u aim for a certain amount of tackles and achieve that target, does that mean u were chasing a*se and behind your man all day? Or if u dont achieve the target, does that mean that u were slack and not aggressive enough, or did u just have more of the ball in an uncontested type of game?

Whoa.....Deep!

 

[hbk_aus]

Whoa.....Deep!

Long day at work...

 

[Shell]

Its why people bag Aaron Davey, when experts can see the value of his pressure, others, such as that radio caller, can not see past goals/possessions...

People bag Aaron Davey now??

I have no idea anymore really as to what is going on at other clubs. Barely watch any games on TV (ones that dont involve Geelong anyway).

I thought Davey was pretty much a respected player.

 

[hbk_aus]

People bag Aaron Davey now??

I have no idea anymore really as to what is going on at other clubs. Barely watch any games on TV (ones that dont involve Geelong anyway).

I thought Davey was pretty much a respected player.

YEah i have noticed on the main forum they did a bit earlier in the season when they were struggling.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

As a man who has a love for statistics (no, not because of dream team/supercoach...i have done AFL stats well before the internet was known existence in my head as a child), and there is obviously the idea that they are irrelevant, but there are those stats that can't be discarded.

Contested possession, contested marks, score assists and efficiency are now free to public access via champion data because the importance has been recommended. Then there is obviously the intangiable of a player, such as pressure etc. as you mentioned...they are only in mind though, and obviously you do look at those, but rarely.

Then again, there is a correlation between how much a player gets and how good they performed. When rating a player, best on ground usually has 30 touches or kicks 4 plus goals.

With the Collingwood Board still wondering why Alan Toovey is still playing, I actually found out from a mate whilst kicking the footy, that Toovey ran 22 kilometres against Fremantle (Goldsack ran 19km, this is who the info came from via third party). Obviously staff have the access to this stuff and we don't, but in itself, it is a statistic.

 

[sarah.13]

With the Collingwood Board still wondering why Alan Toovey is still playing, I actually found out from a mate whilst kicking the footy, that Toovey ran 22 kilometres against Fremantle (Goldsack ran 19km, this is who the info came from via third party). Obviously staff have the access to this stuff and we don't, but in itself, it is a statistic.

Did they get a kick?

 

[hbk_aus]

As a man who has a love for statistics (no, not because of dream team/supercoach...i have done AFL stats well before the internet was known existence in my head as a child), and there is obviously the idea that they are irrelevant, but there are those stats that can't be discarded.

Contested possession, contested marks, score assists and efficiency are now free to public access via champion data because the importance has been recommended. Then there is obviously the intangiable of a player, such as pressure etc. as you mentioned...they are only in mind though, and obviously you do look at those, but rarely.

Then again, there is a correlation between how much a player gets and how good they performed. When rating a player, best on ground usually has 30 touches or kicks 4 plus goals.

With the Collingwood Board still wondering why Alan Toovey is still playing, I actually found out from a mate whilst kicking the footy, that Toovey ran 22 kilometres against Fremantle (Goldsack ran 19km, this is who the info came from via third party). Obviously staff have the access to this stuff and we don't, but in itself, it is a statistic.

Irrelevant, intangible, correlation - you sound far too educated to be a Collingwood supporter!

 

[Brasil2007]

Agree with everything that's been said so far. Stats are important but without the context of the game somewhat meaningless. On the other hand watching the game without looking at the mechanics behind it can be misleading.

Another thing - again hard to measure - is reputation. Sometimes just being on the park is a stat, especially for a key forward, because you draw the best defender. If the plan is to draw that defender out of the scoring zone, and you do it, then you've had an impact on the game even if you don't kick a goal.

 

[hoody]

Agree with everything that's been said so far. Stats are important but without the context of the game somewhat meaningless. On the other hand watching the game without looking at the mechanics behind it can be misleading.

Another thing - again hard to measure - is reputation. Sometimes just being on the park is a stat, especially for a key forward, because you draw the best defender. If the plan is to draw that defender out of the scoring zone, and you do it, then you've had an impact on the game even if you don't kick a goal.

In the context of the game...................... one important stat is the "frees against".
Last Sunday ex Western Bulldog Paul Dimattina chalked up one in this category.
The problem with that is that he was an official Essendon runner.

 

[catempire]

In the vain of the NRA...

Stats don't lie, people using stats do.

 

[Shell]

In the vain of the NRA...

Stats don't lie, people using stats do.

50% of all people know that!

 

[MrGFC]

A lot of good relevant points raised in here. Could I (dare I) suggest a new column for effective disposal/kick/goal/hand pass etc etc.

Some of the rubbish stats that might be totaled are pure rubbish, like this kicking around the back line to see out a quarter. It's a negative but sadly required (at times) part of todays game. But these quick 20 stats grabbing side of the game are realistically rubbish, and shouldn't really be included in true stats.

I'm glad they aren't a regular part of our game plan, but we did see it on Sunday, when we needed to stop their run. But I can't believe we have to actually include them when they are meaningless.

 

[Hairy Cat Mooney]

Varcoe's pressure in the forward line is awesome though I don't think your rant about Tenace is true. Yes, the game was played in very poor conditions, but he still turned the ball over a lot. Really needs to work on his disoposal before he can cement his spot in the side. Will be out this week for Rooke.

 

[winty]

Another interesting thing with statistics is that different statisticians come up with different figures on the same game. For example, the Herald-Sun, who uses statistics from Champion Data, said Cameron Ling took four marks yesterday, 3 of which were contested. According to the Age however, which uses pro-stats, Ling only took 3 marks, 1 of which was contested. The Age said we laid 130 tackles yesterday, the Herald-Sun said we laid 111. So who are we to believe?