Stats observations

[RogersResults]

2011 Pre Grand Final.

Collingwood have never won a Grand Final after trailing at 3/4 time

Geelong have never lost a Grand Final after leading at 3/4 time

Both Collingwood’s and Geelong’s highest last quarter scores in Grand Finals were in matches that they lost.

Collingwood v Geelong now become the equal second most common Grand Final combination

Six of the last 10 Grand Finals have been won by the team with the lower percentage at the end of the Home and Away season. The overall total is 46 out of 112 Grand Finals have been won by the team with the lower percentage.


More Grand Final Trivia - Plus Collingwood and Geelong scoring/results comparison 2000-2011.

 

[worbod]

Three of the past four runners up have finished with 20 wins in the home and away season.


Collingwood 20-2 in 2011
St. Kilda 20-2 in 2009
Geelong 21-1 in 2008



The only other two teams to have posted 20 home and away wins went on to win the flag. (Carlton in 1995 and Essendon in 2000)

 

[Catsace]

Would any club who has lost no more than three games in a season ever have lost to the same club more than once?

Astonishing stat that the Pies finished with 22 wins and three losses, all of them to Geelong.

In response to the above post by Worbod, indeed Geelong's 21-1 season and Grand Final loss has heralded some amazing H & A numbers that have not resulted in flags. To have three sides lose three or less games in the last four years who have no Premiership to show for it turns on it's head everything that had happened up until 2007.

Geelong was the first side to lose two games only in a year and not win a flag, and St.Kilda and the Pies join them as sides to lose only three games in a season without a flag i think since about the W.W.1 era.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Would any club who has lost no more than three games in a season ever have lost to the same club more than once?

Year Cb L Pos Op Pos Rounds
-----------------------------
1902 Co 3 1st Fi 3rd  4,SF
1913 Fi 3 1st St 2nd  2,PF
1920 Ri 3 1st Ca 3rd 11,SF
1921 Ca 3 2nd Ri 1st PF,GF
1935 Co 3 1st Sy 2nd 12,SF
1935 Sy 3 2nd Co 1st  1,GF
2011 Co 3 2nd Ge 1st  8,24,GF

 

[Catsace]

Year Cb L Pos Op Pos Rounds
-----------------------------
1902 Co 3 1st Fi 3rd  4,SF
1913 Fi 3 1st St 2nd  2,PF
1920 Ri 3 1st Ca 3rd 11,SF
1921 Ca 3 2nd Ri 1st PF,GF
1935 Co 3 1st Sy 2nd 12,SF
1935 Sy 3 2nd Co 1st  1,GF
2011 Co 3 2nd Ge 1st  8,24,GF

Wow, quick work there Ron! So it's only happened once since W.W.2 and only three times since the Page/McIntyre system started in 1931.

Amazing with Sydney and Collingwood in 1935, going 2-2 in their four clashes, and losing just one other game for the season to someone else each.

I do feel for the Swans of the 1930's with a stunning win/loss record at the time and a flag in 1933 with GF losses in '34-'35-'36. Would have been heartbreaking, indeed it would most likely be that their zenith from an overall W/L% may be at the end of 1936, as they had a ghastly period with just 1945 to show for things up till 1970.

 

[RogersResults]

2011 Grand Final.

• One of three most even winning Grand Final scores - all of Geelong's quarter scores were under 4% off 25% of the total score.

• Geelong in 2011 is the first Premier since Essendon in 1984 to defeat the runner-up in all meetings where the total of matches was 3 or more.

• Only the 2nd time that a team has won 3 Premierships in 5 seasons without winning consecutive flags.

• 13 pts: Geelong's highest losing margin for 2011 was their lowest for any season.

• Collingwood's percentage for the complete season of 157.3% is the highest recorded by a runner-up.

• Collingwood lost their 1,000th first quarter in this match.

Details and More.​

 

[Ron The Bear]

The longest consecutive run of games for any of Geelong's 2011 premiership players was 16 for Harry Taylor. Only once has a flag-winning team featured a shorter, longest consecutive games streak.

Shortest:

14 1900 Me Jack Leith
16 2011 Ge Harry Taylor
23 1901 Es Fred Hiskins
23 1917 Co Percy Wilson
24 1984 Es Roger Merrett

Longest:

182 2005 Sy Jared Crouch
139 2010 Co Darren Jolly
121 1948 Me Don Cordner
107 1978 Ha Michael Tuck
104 1966 St Ian Synman

 

[RogersResults]

The longest consecutive run of games for any of Geelong's 2011 premiership players was 16 for Harry Taylor. Only once has a flag-winning team featured a shorter, longest consecutive games streak.

Shortest:

14 1900 Me Jack Leith
16 2011 Ge Harry Taylor
23 1901 Es Fred Hiskins
23 1917 Co Percy Wilson
24 1984 Es Roger Merrett

Longest:

182 2005 Sy Jared Crouch
139 2010 Co Darren Jolly
121 1948 Me Don Cordner
107 1978 Ha Michael Tuck
104 1966 St Ian Synman

I suspect that the unchanged side from the Preliminary Final was the only time in the season that Geelong had an unchanged side. How does that compare with past Premiers?

 

[Ron The Bear]

I suspect that the unchanged side from the Preliminary Final was the only time in the season that Geelong had an unchanged side. How does that compare with past Premiers?

There have been ten previous cases of the premiers entering the GF with their only unchanged team for the season.

Richmond 1974
Collingwood 1958
Melbourne 1957
Fitzroy 1944
Richmond 1943
Essendon 1942
Richmond 1934
Fitzroy 1922
Carlton 1908
Fitzroy 1904

The most changes made to any GF-winning team from its previous match is five, by Melbourne in 1940 and Essendon in 1923.

5 changes - 2
3 changes - 11
2 changes - 24
1 change - 46
0 changes - 30

 

[RogersResults]

There have been ten previous cases of the premiers entering the GF with their only unchanged team for the season.

Richmond 1974
Collingwood 1958
Melbourne 1957
Fitzroy 1944
Richmond 1943
Essendon 1942
Richmond 1934
Fitzroy 1922
Carlton 1908
Fitzroy 1904

The most changes made to any GF-winning team from its previous match is five, by Melbourne in 1940 and Essendon in 1923.

5 changes - 2
3 changes - 11
2 changes - 24
1 change - 46
0 changes - 30

Most interesting.

When you take out the WWII years where players military service and war related occupations meant that their availability to play was compromised, Geelong in 2011 is even more remarkable.

As it is accepted that the Cats' team changes were as much to do with planned team management than injuries and form, I wonder if we will see less unchanged teams in the future?

 

[worbod]

Noticed a stat printed on page 93 of today's Herald-Sun which stated Geelong now possess a win loss record of 105-20 over the past five years, with three flags resulting. They compared this with Hawthorn from 1983-1987, who managed two flags and a win loss record of 93-33-1. Not sure why they chose these exact years for Hawthorn, perhaps they wanted to highlight the time when the Hawks began their long run of grand final appearances. If you search for Hawthorn's best win-loss rate over a five year period during this time, 1985-1989 is more successful, and it results in three flags.


Club . . . .5 year span . W L D .Win% Flags Minor premier
Geelong . . 2007-2011 . 105 20 0 84.0 3 . . . 2
Hawthorn . .1985-1989 . .98 26 1 78.8 3 . . . 3
Bris Lions .2000-2004 . .88 36 1 70.8 3 . . . 0


Of course, there are other instances of 3 flags in 5 years in VFL/AFL history, and even 4 flags in 5. This is just a brief comaprison of the modern era teams to have done so.

 

[RogersResults]

Noticed a stat printed on page 93 of today's Herald-Sun which stated Geelong now possess a win loss record of 105-20 over the past five years, with three flags resulting. They compared this with Hawthorn from 1983-1987, who managed two flags and a win loss record of 93-33-1. Not sure why they chose these exact years for Hawthorn, perhaps they wanted to highlight the time when the Hawks began their long run of grand final appearances. If you search for Hawthorn's best win-loss rate over a five year period during this time, 1985-1989 is more successful, and it results in three flags.


Club . . . .5 year span . W L D .Win% Flags Minor premier
Geelong . . 2007-2011 . 105 20 0 84.0 3 . . . 2
Hawthorn . .1985-1989 . .98 26 1 78.8 3 . . . 3
Bris Lions .2000-2004 . .88 36 1 70.8 3 . . . 0


Of course, there are other instances of 3 flags in 5 years in VFL/AFL history, and even 4 flags in 5. This is just a brief comaprison of the modern era teams to have done so.

They picked Hawthorn 83-87 because they are incompetent. (With a significant track record.)

Your figures are 100% correct.

Full list of each team's best/worst match/win percentage is here.

 

[Catsace]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Must say RR, i do enjoy your little comment on the bottom of your latest Grand Final tables about 'Note to Herald Sun journalists'.....

Just to remind them if they are going to use your work, to at least use the stats correctly!!

 

[McCrann]

Amount of finals series contested from 1996-2011 (chose this parameter simply because it's 15 years ago)

Adelaide- '97-'98, '01-'03, '05-'09= 10/16
Brisbane- '96-'97, '99-'04, '09= 9/16
Carlton- '96, '99-'01, '09-'11= 7/16
Collingwood= '02-'03, '06-'11= 8/16
Essendon= '96, '98-'04, '09, '11= 10/16
Fremantle= '03, '06, '10= 3/16
Geelong= '96-'97, '00, '04-'05, '07-'11= 10/16
Hawthorn= '96, '00-'01, '07-'08, '10-'11= 7/16
Melbourne= '98, '00, '02, '04-'06= 6/16
North Melbourne= '96-'00, '02, '05, '07-'08= 9/16
Port Adelaide= '99, '01-'05, '07= 7/15 (joined in 1997 obviously)
Richmond= '01= 1/16
St Kilda- '97-'98, '04-'06, '08-'11= 9/16
Sydney- '96-'99, '01, '03-'08, '10-'11= 13/16
West Coast- '96-'99, '02-'07, '11= 11/16
Western Bulldogs- '97- '00, '06, '08-'10= 8/16


With Fitzroy and Gold Coast obviously having none, having played in only one season each in that 1996-2011 period.


Really surprising that Sydney has participated in two more finals series than any other club in the last 15 years...

St. Kilda being the only club to have participated in > 50% of finals series in that period without winning a Premiership!

TYPICAL SAINTS!

 

[McCrann]

West Coast have 5 GF appearances since 1989. 1991, 92, 94, 05 and 06. Unless I was misreading what you were saying (which is highly probable).

Hmmm, interesting typo - i don't recall West Coast playing in the 1989 GF. Dermie and Yablett would probably have something to say about that!

(Although you do say 5 - which is correct).

 

[McCrann]

2011 Preliminary Finals:

Collingwood v Hawthorn

• Only the 4th final won by winning only the last quarter.

• Only the 2nd match ever lost by Hawthorn where they won the first 3 quarters.

Geelong v West Coast.

• Of West Coast's 11 finals opponents, Geelong is the last to win a final against the Eagles.

• Geelong surpassed Collingwood as the highest scoring team this season during this match - 2,763 (115.1 average) - Collingwood 2,742 (114.25 average.)

Collingwood v Geelong now will have the highest number of finals match-ups of any two teams – 23.


More here:

Interesting stat in red - i remember the last team to manage to lose this sort of unloseable game. Thankyou Tommy Hawkins (with special mentions to Milne, Schneider and co.)

What are the other two if you don't mind?

 

[McCrann]

2011 Pre Grand Final.

Collingwood have never won a Grand Final after trailing at 3/4 time

Geelong have never lost a Grand Final after leading at 3/4 time

Both Collingwood’s and Geelong’s highest last quarter scores in Grand Finals were in matches that they lost.

Collingwood v Geelong now become the equal second most common Grand Final combination

Six of the last 10 Grand Finals have been won by the team with the lower percentage at the end of the Home and Away season. The overall total is 46 out of 112 Grand Finals have been won by the team with the lower percentage.


More Grand Final Trivia - Plus Collingwood and Geelong scoring/results comparison 2000-2011.

Most common being? Carlton v Collingwood?
And equal with what?

A little appreciated fact is that the Adelaide Crows of 1997/98 had the best percentage of any teams in both of those years. Their Premierships were not quite as "shocking" as they seemed.

I also find it interesting that St. Kilda has played an equally wide variety of opponents in Grand Finals as Melbourne

St. Kilda - Fitzroy, Essendon, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Adelaide Crows, Geelong (6 Clubs - 1 Flag).

Melbourne - Fitzroy, Collingwood, Richmond, Essendon, Footscray, Hawthorn (6 Clubs - 12 Flags).

Extraordinary difference there.

 

[RogersResults]

Interesting stat in red - i remember the last team to manage to lose this sort of unloseable game. Thankyou Tommy Hawkins (with special mentions to Milne, Schneider and co.)

What are the other two if you don't mind?

1960 Preliminary Final - Collingwood 9.11-65 v Fitzroy 8.12-60.

2000 Qualifying Final - Melbourne 15.6-96 v Carlton 12.15-87

Neither had happy endings.

 

[RogersResults]

Most common being? Carlton v Collingwood?
And equal with what?

All finals pairings are here

 

[McCrann]

This may be posted elsewhere, but looking at the last 4 teams alive this year, it is at least the 3rd time it has happened that the last 4 teams alive are the last 4 Premiers.

2011 - Geelong (2009, 2007), Collingwood (2010), Hawthorn (2008), West Coast (2006).

First time since 1982.

1982 - Carlton (1981, 1979), Richmond (1980), Hawthorn (1978), North Melbourne (1977)

And it was previously done in 1956.

1956 - Melbourne (1955), Collingwood (1953), Footscray (1954), Geelong (1952).

I haven't checked earlier than that - but did it happen previously to 1956?

Perhaps it was because of this fact that I couldn't really care who won after Semi-Final week and just wanted to see some good footy - well, 2/3 finals ain't bad.

Its the first time in my time watching footy (since 1984) that there has been no "drought-breaker" team contending in the last 4.

Counting teams that have "NEVER" won as equal to having a drought of infinity years that is.

The years with the shortest "drought-breakers" contending in the last 4 before 2011 were: 1984 & 1989

1984 - Collingwood (26 years); Essendon (19 years); Carlton (2 Years) and Hawthorn (1 Year).

&

1989 - Geelong (26 years); Melbourne (25 years); Essendon (4 years) and Hawthorn (1 year).

So, from 26 years down to 5 years this time - quite a rare occurence.

I would suggest Carlton will definitely be Top 4 next year, somehow.

 

[McCrann]

All finals pairings are here

Cool, i believe St. Kilda v Collingwood (11) is missing from your finals pairings table of over 10.

 

[RogersResults]

Cool, i believe St. Kilda v Collingwood (11) is missing from your finals pairings table of over 10.

It is indeed. Well caught sir!

 

[RogersResults]

This may be posted elsewhere, but looking at the last 4 teams alive this year, it is at least the 3rd time it has happened that the last 4 teams alive are the last 4 Premiers.

2011 - Geelong (2009, 2007), Collingwood (2010), Hawthorn (2008), West Coast (2006).

First time since 1982.

1982 - Carlton (1981, 1979), Richmond (1980), Hawthorn (1978), North Melbourne (1977)

And it was previously done in 1956.

1956 - Melbourne (1955), Collingwood (1953), Footscray (1954), Geelong (1952).

I haven't checked earlier than that - but did it happen previously to 1956?

1947 - Essendon (1946) Carlton (1945) Fitzroy (1944) Richmond (1943)
1934 - Sth Melb (1933) Richmond (1932) Geelong (1931) Collingwood (1930)

 

[McCrann]

1947 - Essendon (1946) Carlton (1945) Fitzroy (1944) Richmond (1943)
1934 - Sth Melb (1933) Richmond (1932) Geelong (1931) Collingwood (1930)

Thanks, I actually looked this up as well and noticed that these "streams" went back further than I realised.

2011 - Geelong (2009, 2007), Collingwood (2010), Hawthorn (2008), West Coast (2006) - 5 YEARS.

1982 - Carlton (1981, 1979, 1972, 1970, 1968), Richmond (1980, 1974, 1973, 1969, 1967), Hawthorn (1978, 1976, 1971), North Melbourne (1977, 1975) - 15 YEARS.

1956 - Melbourne (1955), Collingwood (1953), Footscray (1954), Geelong (1952, 1951)- 5 YEARS.

1947 - Carlton (1945), Essendon (1946, 1942), Fitzroy (1944), Richmond (1943) - 5 YEARS.

1934 - Richmond (1932), South Melbourne (1933), Geelong (1931), Collingwood (1930, 1929, 1928, 1927) - 7 YEARS.

Frankly, that 1982 "RECORD" will never be broken. NEVER.

Those 4 teams also won the 1982 & 1983 Flags as well. 17 in a row. If you add in Essendon to that bunch (1965, 1984, 1985) - you have 5 teams winning 24/25 Flags (1965 - 1989).

Carlton - 7 (1968, 1970, 1972, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987)
Hawthorn - 7 (1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989)
Richmond - 5 (1967, 1969, 1973, 1974, 1980)
Essendon - 3 (1965, 1984, 1985)
North Melbourne - 2 (1975, 1977)

 

[Doss]

Most common being? Carlton v Collingwood?
And equal with what?

Off the top of my head, Essendon v Melbourne is still the most common grand final pairing.

Carlton v Collingwood and Collingwood v Geelong Grand Finals have both occured six times. I think Essendon v Melbourne Grand Finals have occured seven times. Off the top of my head anyway..