Stats questions

RedmanWasHere

Rarely in kitchens at parties.
Aug 23, 2010
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Further to this, where do Billy Hartung (HAW) and Blake Acres (STK) rank in terms of debuting margin swings?
Both debuted in R7 2014 where Hawthorn won 175-30. (145 point differential so, for both, that's a 290 point swing.)

IIRC also, both players were subs.

Interestingly, both wore No. 40.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
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Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
Further to this, where do Billy Hartung (HAW) and Blake Acres (STK) rank in terms of debuting margin swings?
Both debuted in R7 2014 where Hawthorn won 175-30. (145 point differential so, for both, that's a 290 point swing.)

IIRC also, both players were subs.

Interestingly, both wore No. 40.
Just looking at the Biggest Wins list above; 320 points (160 x 2) is the next biggest after the Richmond vs. North Melb. game, with Richard Taylor (Hawthorn) and David Calthorpe (Essendon) debuting in Rd. 20 1992.

Of those 20 biggest wins/losses (ranging from 190-148 points) there's only the two games with players debuting on both sides, so that "290 point swing" is not far off the 296 point swing from the 20th biggest win/loss on the list. That 145 point win is the 23rd biggest on record.

In Rd. 14 1971 Collingwood beat Essendon by 147 (x2 = 294), with Laurie Kaine and Trevor Heath debuting for the respective sides.

Edit: That should place the Hawthorn/St Kilda game debutants in 4th spot. I have only checked the team lists for those 23 biggest wins/losses by eye, or manually, or whatever you call it, but that should be correct!!
 
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emuboy

Club Legend
Dec 17, 2006
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There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.
 

worbod

Premiership Player
Oct 26, 2008
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There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.

If you take things a bit further and look outside the VFL/AFL, Laurie Nash had 8 seasons in between playing for South Melbourne. He played for them in 1937, then played for Camberwell in the VFA for 4 seasons. He then enlisted in the army, and after a discharge in 1944, came back to play 17 more games for South in 1945.
 

The Swert

Premiership Player
May 3, 2009
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There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.
Well Gary Ablett Jr was away from Geelong for 7 years.
Adam McPhee was 7 years too.
 

Ron The Bear

Heartbreakers, with your 44
Jul 4, 2006
30,690
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But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?
YearsPlayerEndReturnClubsCareer
11Kelly, Harvey19021913Sy,Ca,Sy1902-1914
10Schmidt, Billy19111921Ri,St,Ri1908-1921
10Barnes, John19902000Es,Ge,Es1987-2001
9Matthews, E. Herb19141923Sy,Ri,Me,Sy1914-1924
9Baker, Ted19231932Ca,Co,Ge,Co,WB1920-1934
9Bennett, George19331942Ha,WB,Ha1930-1944
9Landy, Graeme19781987Ge,Ri,Ge1975-1988
8Parke, Bert19051913Ca,Me,Ca1905-1913
8Hooper, Don19351943Me,St,Me1932-1943
8Cloke, David19821990Ri,Co,Ri1974-1991
8McPhee, Adam20022010Fr,Es,Fr2001-2012
8Ablett junior, Gary20102018Ge,GC,Ge2002-2019*
 

Wallaby

Norm Smith Medallist
May 8, 2007
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Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs sem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year. That either means they are a club full of average plodders with no standouts, or they are a club with a very large number of extremely talented players. (Hmmm - did they have a good year last year? Show any promise? Ok, we're all screwed :oops: ...........)

I haven't had time to check all the B&F winners that subsequently moved clubs - I know about Steven because he was the obvious one. There's probably others (Jordan Lewis).

So question - which club had the most previous B&F winners on their list at one time. If you can do further investigation to include those B&F winners from other clubs etc - that's great. It would be interesting to see how a club with multiple B&F winners performed in that season.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
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Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs sem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year. That either means they are a club full of average plodders with no standouts, or they are a club with a very large number of extremely talented players. (Hmmm - did they have a good year last year? Show any promise? Ok, we're all screwed :oops: ...........)

I haven't had time to check all the B&F winners that subsequently moved clubs - I know about Steven because he was the obvious one. There's probably others (Jordan Lewis).

So question - which club had the most previous B&F winners on their list at one time. If you can do further investigation to include those B&F winners from other clubs etc - that's great. It would be interesting to see how a club with multiple B&F winners performed in that season.
1581375073631.png

The Saints also have Hill (ex-Fremantle). Hawthorn have Wingard, as well as Mitchell and Worpel. This table includes Rance (Richmond) and Beams (Collingwood)

Sorry, can't help with the last bit.
 

Ron The Bear

Heartbreakers, with your 44
Jul 4, 2006
30,690
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Ladder position & number of previous individual b&f winners to play a senior game, last 50 years

YearAdBrCaCoEsFrGeGCGWSHaMeNMPARiStSyWCWBFi
19701st (3)2nd (4)11th (2)5th (3)8th (4)10th (1)12th (3)6th (3)3rd (4)4th (3)7th (4)9th (3)
19715th (5)4th (5)11th (3)10th (4)1st (4)7th (2)9th (1)3rd (4)2nd (4)12th (2)8th (3)6th (3)
19721st (4)4th (5)5th (4)10th (3)6th (5)8th (3)12th (2)2nd (4)3rd (3)11th (1)7th (3)9th (3)
19732nd (3)3rd (5)5th (3)11th (3)7th (3)10th (4)6th (5)1st (4)4th (1)12th (2)9th (4)8th (4)
19747th (4)4th (5)8th (4)6th (4)3rd (4)12th (3)2nd (6)1st (5)10th (3)9th (2)5th (3)11th (3)
19754th (4)5th (4)8th (4)11th (3)2nd (3)10th (3)1st (7)3rd (5)6th (3)12th (3)7th (3)9th (3)
19763rd (5)12th (4)10th (3)4th (4)1st (4)6th (3)2nd (5)7th (5)9th (4)8th (3)5th (2)11th (4)
19776th (7)2nd (6)9th (2)8th (4)3rd (5)11th (2)1st (4)4th (4)12th (5)5th (3)7th (2)10th (4)
19784th (6)3rd (4)10th (1)5th (4)1st (4)12th (3)2nd (3)7th (3)6th (3)8th (5)11th (2)9th (3)
19791st (5)2nd (4)5th (3)6th (4)7th (4)11th (7)3rd (6)8th (4)12th (2)10th (6)9th (1)4th (3)
19804th (5)2nd (4)7th (3)3rd (4)8th (5)9th (5)5th (5)1st (4)11th (4)6th (4)10th (2)12th (5)
19811st (5)2nd (5)5th (4)3rd (4)6th (5)12th (3)8th (5)7th (4)10th (5)9th (4)11th (2)4th (2)
19821st (6)10th (4)5th (3)9th (4)3rd (5)8th (2)4th (5)2nd (3)11th (3)7th (2)12th (2)6th (1)
19835th (5)6th (5)2nd (3)9th (5)1st (4)8th (5)3rd (4)10th (3)12th (5)11th (3)7th (0)4th (3)
19844th (5)3rd (3)1st (3)6th (2)2nd (4)9th (6)11th (5)8th (3)12th (3)10th (4)7th (1)5th (2)
19855th (4)7th (4)1st (4)6th (3)2nd (4)11th (7)4th (3)8th (3)12th (4)10th (5)3rd (2)9th (2)
19862nd (6)6th (5)5th (4)9th (2)1st (3)11th (4)7th (3)10th (4)12th (3)4th (5)8th (4)3rd (3)
198713th (3)1st (6)12th (4)9th (4)6th (3)2nd (3)3rd (7)5th (4)14th (5)10th (2)4th (4)8th (1)7th (3)11th (3)
198813th (5)3rd (7)4th (4)6th (4)9th (3)1st (4)2nd (4)11th (4)10th (3)14th (3)7th (3)5th (2)8th (4)12th (3)
198910th (5)8th (6)5th (4)3rd (5)2nd (3)1st (4)4th (5)9th (3)14th (4)12th (4)7th (3)11th (2)13th (4)6th (4)
199014th (6)8th (6)1st (4)2nd (5)10th (3)5th (4)4th (5)6th (2)11th (4)9th (4)13th (4)3rd (3)7th (4)12th (4)
19919th (2)15th (5)11th (5)7th (4)6th (4)3rd (4)1st (5)4th (4)8th (3)13th (5)5th (5)12th (3)2nd (3)10th (4)14th (3)
19929th (2)14th (6)7th (5)5th (6)8th (4)2nd (5)6th (6)11th (5)12th (4)13th (5)4th (4)15th (4)1st (4)3rd (4)10th (1)
19933rd (3)13th (5)2nd (5)8th (7)1st (4)7th (6)6th (5)10th (6)5th (5)14th (4)12th (5)15th (3)4th (5)9th (5)11th (1)
199411th (2)12th (6)5th (6)8th (5)10th (4)2nd (5)7th (4)4th (4)3rd (4)9th (2)13th (6)15th (4)1st (7)6th (4)14th (3)
199511th (3)8th (5)1st (6)10th (6)5th (4)13th (1)2nd (4)15th (3)9th (4)3rd (5)4th (3)14th (5)12th (6)6th (7)7th (4)16th (2)
199612th (5)3rd (5)6th (7)11th (5)4th (4)13th (2)7th (4)8th (4)14th (5)1st (4)9th (4)10th (4)2nd (5)5th (6)15th (5)16th (1)
19971st (4)8th (6)11th (6)10th (4)14th (3)12th (3)5th (3)15th (4)16th (4)4th (6)13th (4)2nd (4)7th (5)6th (6)3rd (6)
19981st (5)16th (5)11th (3)14th (4)8th (3)15th (4)12th (3)13th (3)4th (4)2nd (6)10th (1)9th (3)6th (4)5th (6)7th (7)3rd (6)
199913th (5)4th (6)2nd (4)16th (3)3rd (3)15th (5)11th (4)9th (2)14th (3)1st (6)7th (2)12th (4)10th (4)8th (5)5th (6)6th (7)
200011th (7)5th (6)3rd (6)15th (3)1st (4)12th (3)7th (4)6th (2)2nd (1)4th (5)14th (3)9th (5)16th (3)10th (4)13th (7)8th (6)
20018th (6)1st (6)6th (5)9th (1)2nd (4)16th (5)12th (4)4th (4)11th (2)13th (4)5th (4)3rd (6)15th (4)7th (5)14th (5)10th (5)
20024th (5)1st (7)16th (5)2nd (2)5th (5)13th (4)9th (4)10th (5)6th (3)7th (4)3rd (6)14th (5)15th (5)11th (8)8th (5)12th (5)
20035th (6)1st (7)15th (6)2nd (3)6th (5)7th (3)12th (4)9th (4)14th (2)10th (4)4th (6)13th (4)11th (4)3rd (4)8th (5)16th (4)
200412th (6)2nd (7)11th (2)13th (3)6th (7)9th (3)4th (5)15th (4)7th (3)10th (6)1st (6)16th (4)3rd (4)5th (4)8th (4)14th (4)
20054th (5)11th (7)16th (3)15th (4)13th (7)10th (3)5th (5)14th (4)8th (4)7th (5)6th (5)12th (5)3rd (4)1st (5)2nd (4)9th (4)
20063rd (5)13th (4)16th (2)7th (3)15th (7)4th (3)10th (5)11th (4)5th (5)14th (5)12th (3)9th (4)8th (6)2nd (5)1st (4)6th (4)
20078th (3)10th (3)15th (2)4th (4)12th (7)11th (3)1st (5)6th (4)14th (6)3rd (4)2nd (2)16th (3)9th (7)7th (5)5th (3)13th (6)
20087th (2)10th (4)11th (2)6th (2)12th (4)14th (3)2nd (5)1st (4)16th (5)8th (4)13th (3)9th (3)4th (6)5th (5)15th (1)3rd (4)
20095th (3)6th (3)7th (2)4th (3)8th (4)14th (1)1st (5)9th (4)16th (3)13th (3)10th (3)15th (5)2nd (6)12th (5)11th (2)3rd (4)
201011th (4)13th (3)8th (2)1st (4)14th (3)6th (3)3rd (6)7th (4)12th (3)9th (3)10th (2)15th (2)2nd (5)5th (4)16th (2)4th (6)
201114th (2)15th (2)5th (2)2nd (4)8th (3)11th (4)1st (6)17th (3)3rd (5)13th (2)9th (3)16th (1)12th (2)7th (4)6th (4)4th (3)10th (5)
20123rd (3)13th (3)10th (3)4th (5)11th (4)6th (4)7th (5)17th (3)18th (1)2nd (5)16th (3)8th (3)14th (3)12th (3)9th (3)1st (4)5th (2)15th (4)
201311th (3)12th (5)6th (4)8th (6)9th (4)2nd (4)3rd (5)14th (3)18th (1)1st (5)17th (2)10th (3)5th (3)7th (3)16th (3)4th (5)13th (4)15th (3)
201410th (3)15th (4)13th (5)11th (5)7th (5)6th (5)5th (3)12th (2)16th (2)1st (5)17th (3)4th (4)3rd (4)8th (4)18th (4)2nd (6)9th (5)14th (2)
20156th (4)17th (2)18th (5)12th (3)15th (6)3rd (4)10th (3)16th (3)11th (5)1st (5)13th (3)4th (5)9th (5)7th (3)14th (3)5th (6)2nd (3)8th (1)
20166th (4)17th (5)14th (4)12th (3)18th (3)16th (4)3rd (6)15th (3)4th (6)5th (4)11th (2)8th (6)10th (4)13th (4)9th (3)2nd (5)7th (4)1st (3)
20172nd (4)18th (5)16th (5)13th (2)8th (6)14th (4)3rd (5)17th (4)4th (7)12th (2)9th (4)15th (5)7th (4)1st (4)11th (2)5th (5)6th (6)10th (5)
201812th (5)15th (5)18th (3)2nd (3)11th (6)14th (5)8th (6)17th (3)6th (7)5th (1)4th (5)9th (5)10th (5)3rd (4)16th (2)7th (5)1st (4)13th (4)
201911th (6)5th (5)16th (3)4th (5)8th (6)13th (4)3rd (6)18th (3)2nd (8)9th (1)17th (5)12th (5)10th (5)1st (5)14th (2)15th (6)6th (3)7th (5)

1983 Bulldogs the only side not to contain a winner.

2002 Sydney the only team other than 2019 GWS to have eight individual winners play during one season. 26 teams have had seven; the only one of these not represented in the table is 1957 Bulldogs.
 
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stemline

Club Legend
Nov 26, 2001
2,523
2,732
AFL Club
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I posted this in the observation thread a while back but I'll repost here as it's vaguely relevant -

Of Hawthorn's 1,998 games, the only time they've played without a (previous or future) HFC B&F winner was Round 12 1962 v Footscray.

Do other clubs have similar/small amounts of this occurrence? Has any team played 0 games without a B&F winner?
 

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Ron The Bear

Heartbreakers, with your 44
Jul 4, 2006
30,690
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Has any team played 0 games without a B&F winner?
By my reckoning - Adelaide, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast. Brisbane haven't played a game without one if winners at other clubs are included.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.
 

RussellEbertHandball

Flick pass expert
Nov 16, 2004
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By my reckoning - Adelaide, Brisbane, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.
Can confirm Port. Did a quick calc just by looking at how many games the 15 or so B&F winners played each season and double checking who played in the 1 game Boak missed in 2019.
 

ThePezDispenser

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 22, 2010
9,666
3,608
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Thanks guys - a quick analysis of those figures reveals:

The number of past B&F winners in your team means 2/5ths of f*ck all. Still interesting to see some of the numbers, though.
I think you have to take into consideration best and fairest winners stick around into their twilight years.

You’re most likely more interested in best n fairest winners that have won a bnf within the last 2-3 years.
 

worbod

Premiership Player
Oct 26, 2008
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Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs seem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year.

This got me thinking as to what is each club's record for the most successive seasons producing a separate B & F winner. In other words, if you start alphabetically with Adelaide, between 1991 and 2000, they had 10 different winners of their B & F. In 2001 this sequence is broken when Andrew McLeod wins the award, having previously won it in 1997.

ClubLongest sequence of separate B & F winnersSeasons
Adelaide101991-2000
Brisbane61987-1992
Carlton91949-1957
Collingwood71983-1989
Essendon111924-1934
Fitzroy71906-1909 (joint winners between 1907-1909)
Fremantle81995-2002
Geelong151940-1954
Gold Coast42016-2019
Greater Western Sydney82012-2019
Hawthorn81937-1944
Melbourne121942-1953
North Melbourne131936-1948
Port Adelaide71997-2003
Richmond61991-1996
St. Kilda91968-1976
South Melbourne/Sydney91926-1934
West Coast81987-1993 (joint winners in 1993) & 2010-2017
Western Bulldogs71982-1988 & 1989-1995
 

stemline

Club Legend
Nov 26, 2001
2,523
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AFL Club
Hawthorn
By my reckoning - Adelaide, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast. Brisbane haven't played a game without one if winners at other clubs are included.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.
Was more thinking about B&F winners from that club only...
 

The Swert

Premiership Player
May 3, 2009
3,407
4,520
AFL Club
Hawthorn
How frequent are imported players becoming captain?

Most clubs tend to prefer choosing somebody who they drafted when it comes to captain selection. Except with new clubs who need somebody with more experience.

I can only recall a few in recent times:
Goddard at Essendon after the drug bans
Judd at Carlton
Hall at Sydney
Ablett at GC (establishment)
Ward and Davis at GWS (establishment)
 

Ron The Bear

Heartbreakers, with your 44
Jul 4, 2006
30,690
29,549
AFL Club
Richmond
How frequent are imported players becoming captain?

Most clubs tend to prefer choosing somebody who they drafted when it comes to captain selection. Except with new clubs who need somebody with more experience.

I can only recall a few in recent times:
Goddard at Essendon after the drug bans
Judd at Carlton
Hall at Sydney
Ablett at GC (establishment)
Ward and Davis at GWS (establishment)
My captaincy records aren't 100% complete, but I have 114 players captaining at a second (or later) club for at least 10 games, plus Carl Ditterich, Des Tuddenham, Len Incigneri and Tom Fogarty leading at two different clubs after their first (Ditterich at his second stint at each of St.Kilda and Melbourne).

Other recent ones are Jarrod Witts (GC), Dayne Beams (Br), Josh Kennedy (Sy), Michael Rischitelli (GC, 18 games as a stand-in skipper). Then it's back to Craig Bolton (Sy), who is earlier than the rest of your list.
 
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Procrastinator35

Hall of Famer
Feb 24, 2013
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I think Hawthorn hasn't had one since the 40s. But the Hawks' next captain will likely be O'Meara or Mitchell.
Jim Jackson 1925. Crossed from Collingwood.
Dan Minogue 1926. Crossed from Richmond.
Clarrie Lethlean 1927. Crossed from Melbourne.
Bert Sutton 1928. Crossed from South Melbourne.
Bert Chadwick 1929. Crossed from Melbourne.
Jack Harris (1930-1931) Crossed from Collingwood.
Ivan McAlpine (1935-1937) Crossed from Footscray.
Len Thomas in 1939. Crossed from South Melbourne.
Jack Carmody in 1942. Crossed from Collingwood.
Keith Shea in 1945. Crossed from Carlton.
 

Wallaby

Norm Smith Medallist
May 8, 2007
8,813
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AFL Club
Richmond
Quite a few players have done it. I guess there are 3 categories:

1. Crossed and became captain-coach immediately (Tuddenham at Essendon, Ditterich at Melbourne)
2. Crossed and became captain immediately.
3. Crossed and became captain in later years (eg Kane Johnson at Richmond).
 

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