Stats questions

[RedmanWasHere]

Two North Melbourne debutants were in a 168 point loss to Richmond in 1931 (Jack Dyer's debut game).

This poses a question.

Is 336 points the biggest margin swing by opposing debutantes?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Further to this, where do Billy Hartung (HAW) and Blake Acres (STK) rank in terms of debuting margin swings?
Both debuted in R7 2014 where Hawthorn won 175-30. (145 point differential so, for both, that's a 290 point swing.)

IIRC also, both players were subs.

Interestingly, both wore No. 40.

 

[35Daicos]

This poses a question.

Is 336 points the biggest margin swing by opposing debutantes?

It has to be, since it's the highest placed game on this list where at least one player debuted on both sides.

 

[35Daicos]

Further to this, where do Billy Hartung (HAW) and Blake Acres (STK) rank in terms of debuting margin swings?
Both debuted in R7 2014 where Hawthorn won 175-30. (145 point differential so, for both, that's a 290 point swing.)

IIRC also, both players were subs.

Interestingly, both wore No. 40.

Just looking at the Biggest Wins list above; 320 points (160 x 2) is the next biggest after the Richmond vs. North Melb. game, with Richard Taylor (Hawthorn) and David Calthorpe (Essendon) debuting in Rd. 20 1992.

Of those 20 biggest wins/losses (ranging from 190-148 points) there's only the two games with players debuting on both sides, so that "290 point swing" is not far off the 296 point swing from the 20th biggest win/loss on the list. That 145 point win is the 23rd biggest on record.

In Rd. 14 1971 Collingwood beat Essendon by 147 (x2 = 294), with Laurie Kaine and Trevor Heath debuting for the respective sides.

Edit: That should place the Hawthorn/St Kilda game debutants in 4th spot. I have only checked the team lists for those 23 biggest wins/losses by eye, or manually, or whatever you call it, but that should be correct!!

 

[emuboy]

There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.

 

[worbod]

There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.

If you take things a bit further and look outside the VFL/AFL, Laurie Nash had 8 seasons in between playing for South Melbourne. He played for them in 1937, then played for Camberwell in the VFA for 4 seasons. He then enlisted in the army, and after a discharge in 1944, came back to play 17 more games for South in 1945.

 

[stemline]

George Bennett spent 8 years at Footscray between stints at Hawthorn in the 30s and 40s.

 

[The Swert]

There have been many players who left their first club to play for a rival team and then returned to their first team at a later date. Some return quickly, such as Justin Murphy who left Carlton at the end of 2000, spent a year at Geelong in 2001, then returned to the Blues in 2002.

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

The longest I can think of is 6 years in the case of Trent Nicholls, who played at Richmond from 1988-91, the West Coast Eagles from 1992-93, North Melbourne in 1994-96 and then back to Richmond for 1997-98.

Well Gary Ablett Jr was away from Geelong for 7 years.
Adam McPhee was 7 years too.

 

[Ron The Bear]

But which players were away the longest before returning to their first club?

Years	Player	End	Return	Clubs	Career
11	Kelly, Harvey	1902	1913	Sy,Ca,Sy	1902-1914
10	Schmidt, Billy	1911	1921	Ri,St,Ri	1908-1921
10	Barnes, John	1990	2000	Es,Ge,Es	1987-2001
9	Matthews, E. Herb	1914	1923	Sy,Ri,Me,Sy	1914-1924
9	Baker, Ted	1923	1932	Ca,Co,Ge,Co,WB	1920-1934
9	Bennett, George	1933	1942	Ha,WB,Ha	1930-1944
9	Landy, Graeme	1978	1987	Ge,Ri,Ge	1975-1988
8	Parke, Bert	1905	1913	Ca,Me,Ca	1905-1913
8	Hooper, Don	1935	1943	Me,St,Me	1932-1943
8	Cloke, David	1982	1990	Ri,Co,Ri	1974-1991
8	McPhee, Adam	2002	2010	Fr,Es,Fr	2001-2012
8	Ablett junior, Gary	2010	2018	Ge,GC,Ge	2002-2019*

 

[Wallaby]

Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs sem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year. That either means they are a club full of average plodders with no standouts, or they are a club with a very large number of extremely talented players. (Hmmm - did they have a good year last year? Show any promise? Ok, we're all screwed ...........)

I haven't had time to check all the B&F winners that subsequently moved clubs - I know about Steven because he was the obvious one. There's probably others (Jordan Lewis).

So question - which club had the most previous B&F winners on their list at one time. If you can do further investigation to include those B&F winners from other clubs etc - that's great. It would be interesting to see how a club with multiple B&F winners performed in that season.

 

[35Daicos]

Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs sem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year. That either means they are a club full of average plodders with no standouts, or they are a club with a very large number of extremely talented players. (Hmmm - did they have a good year last year? Show any promise? Ok, we're all screwed ...........)

I haven't had time to check all the B&F winners that subsequently moved clubs - I know about Steven because he was the obvious one. There's probably others (Jordan Lewis).

So question - which club had the most previous B&F winners on their list at one time. If you can do further investigation to include those B&F winners from other clubs etc - that's great. It would be interesting to see how a club with multiple B&F winners performed in that season.

The Saints also have Hill (ex-Fremantle). Hawthorn have Wingard, as well as Mitchell and Worpel. This table includes Rance (Richmond) and Beams (Collingwood)

Sorry, can't help with the last bit.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Ladder position & number of previous individual b&f winners to play a senior game, last 50 years

Year

Ad

Br

Ca

Co

Es

Fr

Ge

GC

GWS

Ha

Me

NM

PA

Ri

St

Sy

WC

WB

Fi

1970

1st (3)

2nd (4)

11th (2)

5th (3)

8th (4)

10th (1)

12th (3)

6th (3)

3rd (4)

4th (3)

7th (4)

9th (3)

1971

5th (5)

4th (5)

11th (3)

10th (4)

1st (4)

7th (2)

9th (1)

3rd (4)

2nd (4)

12th (2)

8th (3)

6th (3)

1972

1st (4)

4th (5)

5th (4)

10th (3)

6th (5)

8th (3)

12th (2)

2nd (4)

3rd (3)

11th (1)

7th (3)

9th (3)

1973

2nd (3)

3rd (5)

5th (3)

11th (3)

7th (3)

10th (4)

6th (5)

1st (4)

4th (1)

12th (2)

9th (4)

8th (4)

1974

7th (4)

4th (5)

8th (4)

6th (4)

3rd (4)

12th (3)

2nd (6)

1st (5)

10th (3)

9th (2)

5th (3)

11th (3)

1975

4th (4)

5th (4)

8th (4)

11th (3)

2nd (3)

10th (3)

1st (7)

3rd (5)

6th (3)

12th (3)

7th (3)

9th (3)

1976

3rd (5)

12th (4)

10th (3)

4th (4)

1st (4)

6th (3)

2nd (5)

7th (5)

9th (4)

8th (3)

5th (2)

11th (4)

1977

6th (7)

2nd (6)

9th (2)

8th (4)

3rd (5)

11th (2)

1st (4)

4th (4)

12th (5)

5th (3)

7th (2)

10th (4)

1978

4th (6)

3rd (4)

10th (1)

5th (4)

1st (4)

12th (3)

2nd (3)

7th (3)

6th (3)

8th (5)

11th (2)

9th (3)

1979

1st (5)

2nd (4)

5th (3)

6th (4)

7th (4)

11th (7)

3rd (6)

8th (4)

12th (2)

10th (6)

9th (1)

4th (3)

1980

4th (5)

2nd (4)

7th (3)

3rd (4)

8th (5)

9th (5)

5th (5)

1st (4)

11th (4)

6th (4)

10th (2)

12th (5)

1981

1st (5)

2nd (5)

5th (4)

3rd (4)

6th (5)

12th (3)

8th (5)

7th (4)

10th (5)

9th (4)

11th (2)

4th (2)

1982

1st (6)

10th (4)

5th (3)

9th (4)

3rd (5)

8th (2)

4th (5)

2nd (3)

11th (3)

7th (2)

12th (2)

6th (1)

1983

5th (5)

6th (5)

2nd (3)

9th (5)

1st (4)

8th (5)

3rd (4)

10th (3)

12th (5)

11th (3)

7th (0)

4th (3)

1984

4th (5)

3rd (3)

1st (3)

6th (2)

2nd (4)

9th (6)

11th (5)

8th (3)

12th (3)

10th (4)

7th (1)

5th (2)

1985

5th (4)

7th (4)

1st (4)

6th (3)

2nd (4)

11th (7)

4th (3)

8th (3)

12th (4)

10th (5)

3rd (2)

9th (2)

1986

2nd (6)

6th (5)

5th (4)

9th (2)

1st (3)

11th (4)

7th (3)

10th (4)

12th (3)

4th (5)

8th (4)

3rd (3)

1987

13th (3)

1st (6)

12th (4)

9th (4)

6th (3)

2nd (3)

3rd (7)

5th (4)

14th (5)

10th (2)

4th (4)

8th (1)

7th (3)

11th (3)

1988

13th (5)

3rd (7)

4th (4)

6th (4)

9th (3)

1st (4)

2nd (4)

11th (4)

10th (3)

14th (3)

7th (3)

5th (2)

8th (4)

12th (3)

1989

10th (5)

8th (6)

5th (4)

3rd (5)

2nd (3)

1st (4)

4th (5)

9th (3)

14th (4)

12th (4)

7th (3)

11th (2)

13th (4)

6th (4)

1990

14th (6)

8th (6)

1st (4)

2nd (5)

10th (3)

5th (4)

4th (5)

6th (2)

11th (4)

9th (4)

13th (4)

3rd (3)

7th (4)

12th (4)

1991

9th (2)

15th (5)

11th (5)

7th (4)

6th (4)

3rd (4)

1st (5)

4th (4)

8th (3)

13th (5)

5th (5)

12th (3)

2nd (3)

10th (4)

14th (3)

1992

9th (2)

14th (6)

7th (5)

5th (6)

8th (4)

2nd (5)

6th (6)

11th (5)

12th (4)

13th (5)

4th (4)

15th (4)

1st (4)

3rd (4)

10th (1)

1993

3rd (3)

13th (5)

2nd (5)

8th (7)

1st (4)

7th (6)

6th (5)

10th (6)

5th (5)

14th (4)

12th (5)

15th (3)

4th (5)

9th (5)

11th (1)

1994

11th (2)

12th (6)

5th (6)

8th (5)

10th (4)

2nd (5)

7th (4)

4th (4)

3rd (4)

9th (2)

13th (6)

15th (4)

1st (7)

6th (4)

14th (3)

1995

11th (3)

8th (5)

1st (6)

10th (6)

5th (4)

13th (1)

2nd (4)

15th (3)

9th (4)

3rd (5)

4th (3)

14th (5)

12th (6)

6th (7)

7th (4)

16th (2)

1996

12th (5)

3rd (5)

6th (7)

11th (5)

4th (4)

13th (2)

7th (4)

8th (4)

14th (5)

1st (4)

9th (4)

10th (4)

2nd (5)

5th (6)

15th (5)

16th (1)

1997

1st (4)

8th (6)

11th (6)

10th (4)

14th (3)

12th (3)

5th (3)

15th (4)

16th (4)

4th (6)

13th (4)

2nd (4)

7th (5)

6th (6)

3rd (6)

1998

1st (5)

16th (5)

11th (3)

14th (4)

8th (3)

15th (4)

12th (3)

13th (3)

4th (4)

2nd (6)

10th (1)

9th (3)

6th (4)

5th (6)

7th (7)

3rd (6)

1999

13th (5)

4th (6)

2nd (4)

16th (3)

3rd (3)

15th (5)

11th (4)

9th (2)

14th (3)

1st (6)

7th (2)

12th (4)

10th (4)

8th (5)

5th (6)

6th (7)

2000

11th (7)

5th (6)

3rd (6)

15th (3)

1st (4)

12th (3)

7th (4)

6th (2)

2nd (1)

4th (5)

14th (3)

9th (5)

16th (3)

10th (4)

13th (7)

8th (6)

2001

8th (6)

1st (6)

6th (5)

9th (1)

2nd (4)

16th (5)

12th (4)

4th (4)

11th (2)

13th (4)

5th (4)

3rd (6)

15th (4)

7th (5)

14th (5)

10th (5)

2002

4th (5)

1st (7)

16th (5)

2nd (2)

5th (5)

13th (4)

9th (4)

10th (5)

6th (3)

7th (4)

3rd (6)

14th (5)

15th (5)

11th (8)

8th (5)

12th (5)

2003

5th (6)

1st (7)

15th (6)

2nd (3)

6th (5)

7th (3)

12th (4)

9th (4)

14th (2)

10th (4)

4th (6)

13th (4)

11th (4)

3rd (4)

8th (5)

16th (4)

2004

12th (6)

2nd (7)

11th (2)

13th (3)

6th (7)

9th (3)

4th (5)

15th (4)

7th (3)

10th (6)

1st (6)

16th (4)

3rd (4)

5th (4)

8th (4)

14th (4)

2005

4th (5)

11th (7)

16th (3)

15th (4)

13th (7)

10th (3)

5th (5)

14th (4)

8th (4)

7th (5)

6th (5)

12th (5)

3rd (4)

1st (5)

2nd (4)

9th (4)

2006

3rd (5)

13th (4)

16th (2)

7th (3)

15th (7)

4th (3)

10th (5)

11th (4)

5th (5)

14th (5)

12th (3)

9th (4)

8th (6)

2nd (5)

1st (4)

6th (4)

2007

8th (3)

10th (3)

15th (2)

4th (4)

12th (7)

11th (3)

1st (5)

6th (4)

14th (6)

3rd (4)

2nd (2)

16th (3)

9th (7)

7th (5)

5th (3)

13th (6)

2008

7th (2)

10th (4)

11th (2)

6th (2)

12th (4)

14th (3)

2nd (5)

1st (4)

16th (5)

8th (4)

13th (3)

9th (3)

4th (6)

5th (5)

15th (1)

3rd (4)

2009

5th (3)

6th (3)

7th (2)

4th (3)

8th (4)

14th (1)

1st (5)

9th (4)

16th (3)

13th (3)

10th (3)

15th (5)

2nd (6)

12th (5)

11th (2)

3rd (4)

2010

11th (4)

13th (3)

8th (2)

1st (4)

14th (3)

6th (3)

3rd (6)

7th (4)

12th (3)

9th (3)

10th (2)

15th (2)

2nd (5)

5th (4)

16th (2)

4th (6)

2011

14th (2)

15th (2)

5th (2)

2nd (4)

8th (3)

11th (4)

1st (6)

17th (3)

3rd (5)

13th (2)

9th (3)

16th (1)

12th (2)

7th (4)

6th (4)

4th (3)

10th (5)

2012

3rd (3)

13th (3)

10th (3)

4th (5)

11th (4)

6th (4)

7th (5)

17th (3)

18th (1)

2nd (5)

16th (3)

8th (3)

14th (3)

12th (3)

9th (3)

1st (4)

5th (2)

15th (4)

2013

11th (3)

12th (5)

6th (4)

8th (6)

9th (4)

2nd (4)

3rd (5)

14th (3)

18th (1)

1st (5)

17th (2)

10th (3)

5th (3)

7th (3)

16th (3)

4th (5)

13th (4)

15th (3)

2014

10th (3)

15th (4)

13th (5)

11th (5)

7th (5)

6th (5)

5th (3)

12th (2)

16th (2)

1st (5)

17th (3)

4th (4)

3rd (4)

8th (4)

18th (4)

2nd (6)

9th (5)

14th (2)

2015

6th (4)

17th (2)

18th (5)

12th (3)

15th (6)

3rd (4)

10th (3)

16th (3)

11th (5)

1st (5)

13th (3)

4th (5)

9th (5)

7th (3)

14th (3)

5th (6)

2nd (3)

8th (1)

2016

6th (4)

17th (5)

14th (4)

12th (3)

18th (3)

16th (4)

3rd (6)

15th (3)

4th (6)

5th (4)

11th (2)

8th (6)

10th (4)

13th (4)

9th (3)

2nd (5)

7th (4)

1st (3)

2017

2nd (4)

18th (5)

16th (5)

13th (2)

8th (6)

14th (4)

3rd (5)

17th (4)

4th (7)

12th (2)

9th (4)

15th (5)

7th (4)

1st (4)

11th (2)

5th (5)

6th (6)

10th (5)

2018

12th (5)

15th (5)

18th (3)

2nd (3)

11th (6)

14th (5)

8th (6)

17th (3)

6th (7)

5th (1)

4th (5)

9th (5)

10th (5)

3rd (4)

16th (2)

7th (5)

1st (4)

13th (4)

2019

11th (6)

5th (5)

16th (3)

4th (5)

8th (6)

13th (4)

3rd (6)

18th (3)

2nd (8)

9th (1)

17th (5)

12th (5)

10th (5)

1st (5)

14th (2)

15th (6)

6th (3)

7th (5)

1983 Bulldogs the only side not to contain a winner.

2002 Sydney the only team other than 2019 GWS to have eight individual winners play during one season. 26 teams have had seven; the only one of these not represented in the table is 1957 Bulldogs.

 

[Wallaby]

Thanks guys - a quick analysis of those figures reveals:

The number of past B&F winners in your team means 2/5ths of f*ck all. Still interesting to see some of the numbers, though.

 

[stemline]

I posted this in the observation thread a while back but I'll repost here as it's vaguely relevant -

Of Hawthorn's 1,998 games, the only time they've played without a (previous or future) HFC B&F winner was Round 12 1962 v Footscray.

Do other clubs have similar/small amounts of this occurrence? Has any team played 0 games without a B&F winner?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Has any team played 0 games without a B&F winner?

By my reckoning - Adelaide, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast. Brisbane haven't played a game without one if winners at other clubs are included.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

By my reckoning - Adelaide, Brisbane, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.

Can confirm Port. Did a quick calc just by looking at how many games the 15 or so B&F winners played each season and double checking who played in the 1 game Boak missed in 2019.

 

[ThePezDispenser]

Thanks guys - a quick analysis of those figures reveals:

The number of past B&F winners in your team means 2/5ths of f*ck all. Still interesting to see some of the numbers, though.

I think you have to take into consideration best and fairest winners stick around into their twilight years.

You’re most likely more interested in best n fairest winners that have won a bnf within the last 2-3 years.

 

[worbod]

Question re B&Fs. (This may be tricky).

I was doing a bit of research on club B&Fs and went down a rabbit hole (as you do). I think the current clubs with the fewest previous B&F winners on their lists are St Kilda - which only has 2 (if you include Paddy Ryder) and Hawthorn (who have lost Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis in recent years, who won most of their recent B&Fs). Most clubs seem to have 3-5. Geelong have 6 - 5 Carji Greaves winners plus Jack Steven. Interestingly, the club with the most is GWS, which has 8 - a different winner every year.

This got me thinking as to what is each club's record for the most successive seasons producing a separate B & F winner. In other words, if you start alphabetically with Adelaide, between 1991 and 2000, they had 10 different winners of their B & F. In 2001 this sequence is broken when Andrew McLeod wins the award, having previously won it in 1997.

Club	Longest sequence of separate B & F winners	Seasons
Adelaide	10	1991-2000
Brisbane	6	1987-1992
Carlton	9	1949-1957
Collingwood	7	1983-1989
Essendon	11	1924-1934
Fitzroy	7	1906-1909 (joint winners between 1907-1909)
Fremantle	8	1995-2002
Geelong	15	1940-1954
Gold Coast	4	2016-2019
Greater Western Sydney	8	2012-2019
Hawthorn	8	1937-1944
Melbourne	12	1942-1953
North Melbourne	13	1936-1948
Port Adelaide	7	1997-2003
Richmond	6	1991-1996
St. Kilda	9	1968-1976
South Melbourne/Sydney	9	1926-1934
West Coast	8	1987-1993 (joint winners in 1993) & 2010-2017
Western Bulldogs	7	1982-1988 & 1989-1995

 

[stemline]

By my reckoning - Adelaide, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS, Port Adelaide, West Coast. Brisbane haven't played a game without one if winners at other clubs are included.

Of course some clubs wwere handicapped, e.g. Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond, Melbourne, Sydney didn't award a b&f until the 1920's or 30's.

Was more thinking about B&F winners from that club only...

 

[The Swert]

How frequent are imported players becoming captain?

Most clubs tend to prefer choosing somebody who they drafted when it comes to captain selection. Except with new clubs who need somebody with more experience.

I can only recall a few in recent times:
Goddard at Essendon after the drug bans
Judd at Carlton
Hall at Sydney
Ablett at GC (establishment)
Ward and Davis at GWS (establishment)

 

[Ron The Bear]

How frequent are imported players becoming captain?

Most clubs tend to prefer choosing somebody who they drafted when it comes to captain selection. Except with new clubs who need somebody with more experience.

I can only recall a few in recent times:
Goddard at Essendon after the drug bans
Judd at Carlton
Hall at Sydney
Ablett at GC (establishment)
Ward and Davis at GWS (establishment)

My captaincy records aren't 100% complete, but I have 114 players captaining at a second (or later) club for at least 10 games, plus Carl Ditterich, Des Tuddenham, Len Incigneri and Tom Fogarty leading at two different clubs after their first (Ditterich at his second stint at each of St.Kilda and Melbourne).

Other recent ones are Jarrod Witts (GC), Dayne Beams (Br), Josh Kennedy (Sy), Michael Rischitelli (GC, 18 games as a stand-in skipper). Then it's back to Craig Bolton (Sy), who is earlier than the rest of your list.

 

[stemline]

I think Hawthorn hasn't had one since the 40s. But the Hawks' next captain will likely be O'Meara or Mitchell.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I think Hawthorn hasn't had one since the 40s. But the Hawks' next captain will likely be O'Meara or Mitchell.

Jim Jackson 1925. Crossed from Collingwood.
Dan Minogue 1926. Crossed from Richmond.
Clarrie Lethlean 1927. Crossed from Melbourne.
Bert Sutton 1928. Crossed from South Melbourne.
Bert Chadwick 1929. Crossed from Melbourne.
Jack Harris (1930-1931) Crossed from Collingwood.
Ivan McAlpine (1935-1937) Crossed from Footscray.
Len Thomas in 1939. Crossed from South Melbourne.
Jack Carmody in 1942. Crossed from Collingwood.
Keith Shea in 1945. Crossed from Carlton.

 

[Wallaby]

Quite a few players have done it. I guess there are 3 categories:

1. Crossed and became captain-coach immediately (Tuddenham at Essendon, Ditterich at Melbourne)
2. Crossed and became captain immediately.
3. Crossed and became captain in later years (eg Kane Johnson at Richmond).

 

[stemline]

Who has played in a team's premiership season the most times without ever winning a flag?

e.g. Jon Ceglar holds the record at Hawthorn, playing in 3 premiership seasons (2013, 14 & 15) but not winning a medal.