Steamer

[tony_montana]

A lot of very valid points being made here regarding Cleve...

Needs to get stronger, more agressive, bust some packs, improve when the ball is on the turf etc.

I'm wondering though, how much different things may have been for him if he had not picked up an injury around rounds 15 or 16 this year. (Whenever it was)
He had the 6 goal game against Port & followed it up with 3 against the Scum in that debacle of a Centenary game but was starting to gain some confidence in himself IMO.
It was after this that he witnessed the Polak accident as well.

His development seemed to just stop around this time.

Hindsight I know but it's probably fair that we forget about the final 6 weeks of 2008 for Cleve and see what he can produce in 2009 after a solid pre-season and with improved fitness & strength.

I'm not sure if I would be happy if he only played 15 odd games in 2009. (Baring injury off-course)
This would mean he might be in and out of the line up which would still suggest a lack of consistency.
If he is right for FF in round 1 and gets on a roll he should play most games and I'm happy to ask him for say 45 - 50 goals from say 19 - 20 games.

The thing with Cleve is that he only needs to take 4 to 5 marks in the forward 50 per game to kick an average of 3 goals per game.
Yes we ultimately need more output from our FF than 10 - 12 possessions per game but his job initially needs to be our spearhead... guys like Morton & Brown & Connors & Riewoldt & Richo with his cammeo's can provide the variety.

If however, he should again just float in and out of the line-up in 2009 and not show significant improvement then I'm sure the door will hit him on the arse come October 2009!

well said completely agree

Cleve straightens us up and is integral to our fwd setup going fwd imo. we looked so much more potent when he was in the side at FF

 

[CoggaRules]

I rekon cleve goes alright.
Everyone says he is a one trick pony and all he does is lead, mark, and kick goals. Well one brendan fevola does exactly this and it seems to go alright for him.
And i don't know why this would be a do or die year for cleve?? he's 21 or 22 ffs, big full forwards take time we all know this apart from freaks like buddy and he is coming along nicely.
Plus so far he has shown enough to me to consider him a 10 year player, with the courage he has shown such as running back with the flight in round 1, his form against port and the fact that he never misses.

when will tigerheads get over using a single incident as the basis for their opinion. If you were in his position with 30,000 fans watching, you to would bite the bullet and do the same. Because it would be the end of your career if you pulled out of it. That is of course if you werent an expert in shortening a stride, to get there to late. .

 

[rado]

when will tigerheads get over using a single incident as the basis for their opinion. If you were in his position with 30,000 fans watching, you to would bite the bullet and do the same. Because it would be the end of your career if you pulled out of it. That is of course if you werent an expert in shortening a stride, to get there to late. .

well in this case, this single incident helps my opinion. Going back with the flight as he did showed that he does have courage and when its his time to go, he will go. I can think of many people that definately woud not of done that. Do you rekon kane pettifer would have gone back with the flight like that? yet he remains on our list.
i put it in just to show that he does have that courageous side to his game because many people believe he is soft...

 

[tugga]

Yeah well Pettifer isnt 190+ cm is he? At least cleve provides a contest against the big men. I just think its unfair to expect a massive increase in output from him.

Anyway, I dont think he is a full forward. Not enough pace off the mark and not strong enough. His best attributes are his long (supposedly) accurate kicking and his marking. These attributes would serve him well as a CHF sitting just outside the 50 metre arc. He just needs to build up his tank...alot. Otherwise, I think the best he could hope to be is a good looking version of anthony rocca

Thats why 25 goals from 15 games would be a reasonable target. However, he should also be aiming to average 10-15 disposals, 5+ marks and a couple of goal assists per game.

As far as full forwards go, we have very little stock in the way of a genuine FF other than richo. Schulz has been proven to be useless here...he is an average swingman and nothing more. Putt is a massive ...i thought the goo was going to be our man but alas...now we must have faith that Post is our man. Tall, fast, brilliant mark and an accurate kick...we just need to fast track him

With all due respect RB, if he's not a FF, then he can start packing his bags.
I don;'t think he's a CHF. He doesn't look like he's particularly good at taking a contested mark and he certainly doesn't have the motor.
If he can play his trade as a lead-up and mark FF and contribute 60 goals, then I can handle that.
But I do think he;s limited in where else he can play.

 

[CoggaRules]

well in this case, this single incident helps my opinion. Going back with the flight as he did showed that he does have courage and when its his time to go, he will go. I can think of many people that definately woud not of done that. Do you rekon kane pettifer would have gone back with the flight like that? yet he remains on our list.
i put it in just to show that he does have that courageous side to his game because many people believe he is soft...

you must have missed this bit in my post "That is of course if you werent an expert in shortening a stride, to get there to late"

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

With all due respect RB, if he's not a FF, then he can start packing his bags.
I don;'t think he's a CHF. He doesn't look like he's particularly good at taking a contested mark and he certainly doesn't have the motor.
If he can play his trade as a lead-up and mark FF and contribute 60 goals, then I can handle that.
But I do think he;s limited in where else he can play.

I don't know, I think hes got an above average contested mark, hes just not putting on enough muscle to be able to stay in the contest long enough to take the mark. As for being a lead-up FF...he is quite slow from what i've seen and he has neither the height nor the reach required to make up for that. A quick, 190cm defender would chop him to bits.

 

[CoggaRules]

I don't know, I think hes got an above average contested mark, hes just not putting on enough muscle to be able to stay in the contest long enough to take the mark. As for being a lead-up FF...he is quite slow from what i've seen and he has neither the height nor the reach required to make up for that. A quick, 190cm defender would chop him to bits.

its not just about being a quick lead up forward dude. Its about having the ability to lose your man, i.e enough brains cells to outsmart your dumber FB. Jason Dunstall had JS in pace, it was all about "nouse". Steamer has that ability, he just has to pull his finger out and do it for minimum 2.5 quarters, in 20 games.
He does that he hits 60 + big ones.....he is that type of player that has had us forever saying, how did that lucky **** get clear.., but they always do and they always hurt you. Just finds that ounce of space and it seems to be a lucky break.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

its not just about being a quick lead up forward dude. Its about having the ability to lose your man, i.e enough brains cells to outsmart your dumber FB. Jason Dunstall had JS in pace, it was all about "nouse". Steamer has that ability, he just has to pull his finger out and do it for minimum 2.5 quarters, in 20 games.
He does that he hits 60 + big ones.....he is that type of player that has had us forever saying, how did that lucky **** get clear.., but they always do and they always hurt you. Just finds that ounce of space and it seems to be a lucky break.

Do you really think that? I see him more as the type of player who gets lost in the play most of the time (hence his ridiculously low possession average), but occasionally finds himself in the right place at the right time.

Also Dunstall had strength, ground skills, and at least servicable pace off the first few steps. Cleve has none of those abilities.

 

[CoggaRules]

Do you really think that? I see him more as the type of player who gets lost in the play most of the time (hence his ridiculously low possession average), but occasionally finds himself in the right place at the right time.

Also Dunstall had strength, ground skills, and at least servicable pace off the first few steps. Cleve has none of those abilities.

he can do that for 20 games, and that gives him 60+. Any improvment in other areas is bonus time. You see when he gets lost in the play, that means his man isnt where he is. When you are FF, this is a big advantage, because all you need is 4 chances and convert them and job done.

As for this pearler, "Also Dunstall had strength, ground skills, and at least servicable pace off the first few steps. Cleve has none of those abilities", i would suggest that if what you are saying is true, then we are pretty well ****ed, because i would be asking WTF did the recruiters see in him, if he didnt have none of those skills?

 

[Khan]

Wish he had a different name, Steamer makes me think of the old Caddy Shack movie ...

 

[corporal]

he can do that for 20 games, and that gives him 60+. Any improvment in other areas is bonus time. You see when he gets lost in the play, that means his man isnt where he is. When you are FF, this is a big advantage, because all you need is 4 chances and convert them and job done.

As for this pearler, "Also Dunstall had strength, ground skills, and at least servicable pace off the first few steps. Cleve has none of those abilities", i would suggest that if what you are saying is true, then we are pretty well ****ed, because i would be asking WTF did the recruiters see in him, if he didnt have none of those skills?

I'm not sure comparing Cleve Hughes to Dunstall really helps your argument

The best I see Hughes being is a Allister Lynch style forward. With a dominate midfield he might go alright out of the goal square.

A strong midfield is the key to our two bit forwards performing (Richo the exception of course)

 

[CoggaRules]

I'm not sure comparing Cleve Hughes to Dunstall really helps your argument

The best I see Hughes being is a Allister Lynch style forward. With a dominate midfield he might go alright out of the goal square.

A strong midfield is the key to our two bit forwards performing (Richo the exception of course)

wasnt comparing Dunstall to the Steamer, just suggested that the Steamer had that ability to get lost in traffic, but end up in the right place at the right time, sometimes in a match. As a FF and the way he kicks, thats all he has to do for 20 ****ing games and he gets 60+ goals for us. Dont give a rats arse if he cant take a contested mark, is not good at ground level, cant do carthwheels etc, all i want from him is 4 chances at the big sticks each game and we have a FF, when we have had J ****ing S there, for the last decade.
We need scoreboard pressure to win games, we dont need the ****ing stats that mean nothing but how many chances you get to put that scoreboard pressure on.
You see if you take a look at the freo game, we had all the stats coming out of the middle, but we also hit the big sticks, rather than missing the lot, and that lead to an arse tearing for them. then you can look at a multitude of games before and after that game, and the stats coming out of the center at a given point of the game were not to different. The probelm was the end result kept the opposition in the game, because instead of being 5 goals up, we were 5 ****ing points up.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Wish he had a different name, Steamer makes me think of the old Caddy Shack movie ...

If he ever gets picked to play in the International Rules, the Irish will have a field day with that name...over there it means something different again...

 

[CoggaRules]

If he ever gets picked to play in the International Rules, the Irish will have a field day with that name...over there it means something different again...

dont worry, if he ****s up and hit dudsville, he will go from Steamer to Pile of Steaming, to the tigerheads before you know it.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

At least he's a better shot for goal than our last FF....

 

[UpTheGuts]

He goes OK, just needs to work on his hands and he can look pretty cumbersome.

Worth persisting with here as upside is significant. Clearly a v impt year for him though

 

[CoggaRules]

At least he's a better shot for goal than our last FF....

still reckon the Sarge is better.

 

[corporal]

wasnt comparing Dunstall to the Steamer, just suggested that the Steamer had that ability to get lost in traffic, but end up in the right place at the right time, sometimes in a match. As a FF and the way he kicks, thats all he has to do for 20 ****ing games and he gets 60+ goals for us. Dont give a rats arse if he cant take a contested mark, is not good at ground level, cant do carthwheels etc, all i want from him is 4 chances at the big sticks each game and we have a FF, when we have had J ****ing S there, for the last decade.
We need scoreboard pressure to win games, we dont need the ****ing stats that mean nothing but how many chances you get to put that scoreboard pressure on.
You see if you take a look at the freo game, we had all the stats coming out of the middle, but we also hit the big sticks, rather than missing the lot, and that lead to an arse tearing for them. then you can look at a multitude of games before and after that game, and the stats coming out of the center at a given point of the game were not to different. The probelm was the end result kept the opposition in the game, because instead of being 5 goals up, we were 5 ****ing points up.

Its pretty simple then I guess, probably why there are so many 22yo, 60 goal key position forwards going around

 

[_RT_]

I see posts saying that Cleve only needs to produce 25 goals from 15-18 games. To ask for less than 2 goal a game from a KP forward is wrong and doesn't put any pressure on him to step up and become a player. It has to be minimum 2 goals a game. Others have averaged that so there is no reason that Cleve can't either and I'm not talking about Buddy or Roughead either. Last year McKinley from the Eagles averaged 2.3 a game over 18 games was only 21 and was drafted pick 29 in the 2005 draft. John Anthony from the Pies averaged 2.1 goals per game this year, his debut season BTW, in 12 games was only 20 and was taken pick 37 05 draft.

Yet we expect Cleve who was rated as a better player than either of them to be averaging less than 2 goals a game. The coaching staff should go to Cleve at the start of the year and say we're going to play you either FF/CHF for the first 11 games and we expect 2 goals per game. If he can deliver that then the rest will take care of itself, if he can't then we will know that it is time to move him on.

No More ****ing Excuses.

 

[rado]

you must have missed this bit in my post "That is of course if you werent an expert in shortening a stride, to get there to late"

exactly
i dont get where your going with this??
that play showed that cleve doesnt shorten his stride and shows that he will go back with the flight when needed and he is not soft.
what point are you trying to make exactly?

 

[deliberate!!]

I see posts saying that Cleve only needs to produce 25 goals from 15-18 games. To ask for less than 2 goal a game from a KP forward is wrong and doesn't put any pressure on him to step up and become a player. It has to be minimum 2 goals a game. Others have averaged that so there is no reason that Cleve can't either and I'm not talking about Buddy or Roughead either. Last year McKinley from the Eagles averaged 2.3 a game over 18 games was only 21 and was drafted pick 29 in the 2005 draft. John Anthony from the Pies averaged 2.1 goals per game this year, his debut season BTW, in 12 games was only 20 and was taken pick 37 05 draft.

Yet we expect Cleve who was rated as a better player than either of them to be averaging less than 2 goals a game. The coaching staff should go to Cleve at the start of the year and say we're going to play you either FF/CHF for the first 11 games and we expect 2 goals per game. If he can deliver that then the rest will take care of itself, if he can't then we will know that it is time to move him on.

No More ****ing Excuses.

The whole year (2009) has to be the year of no excuses RT.
It's time to achieve.

 

[Themi#9]

I think he will be a gun.
he needs to develop his strength, endurance, etc and i think 09 is his year.
he is exactly what we need at FF, because he can take a good grab, and he can actually kick the footy. IMO he is a great prospect, things were looking up after the port and Carlton game, but the Polak incident would of played a big part in his ability to play footy as he saw what happend, and then he had back troubles.

09 will be Cleve's year and he will have a ripper!!

if he plays 22 games id be hoping for about 50-60 goals

 

[getthefooty]

I don't want to see 6 kicks and 6 goals from steamer. I want to see 12 kicks, 3 or 4 goals with a few assists but more importantly some tackles and defensive pressure in the forward line. He needs to become a more well rounded player.

 

[richoatthedisco]

I don't want to see 6 kicks and 6 goals from steamer. I want to see 12 kicks, 3 or 4 goals with a few assists but more importantly some tackles and defensive pressure in the forward line. He needs to become a more well rounded player.

Mate if he kicks 6 every week I don't care if he lays a tackle all year.

 

[getthefooty]

You get my drift though.