Stephen Silvagni and Carlton

Bloodied52

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I expect Silvagni and Carlton will now face a further challenge as other Clubs eye off and make offers to their better young players.

As with GoCo, Carlton are at risk of being little more than a talent incubator for more successful Clubs. This will inevitably lead to CFC paying overs for a number of players attracting the interest of other Clubs and limit their ability to attract top end players who are 24yo+.
 

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Cdog71

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Luring mature recruits is not that easy when you're last on the ladder. Carlton had a crack at many mature recruits like Rockliff, Shiel, Smith & more (established guns) and were unsuccessful. However, Picking up Gibbons, Newman and McGovern has been beneficial.
Atkins and Miers are not core players, they can slot into an established system and play their role easily like Geelong. They wouldn't have the same impact at Carlton

Carlton's situation is different, the new core players were built through the draft. (Weitering, Walsh, Fisher, Curnow, Mckay ect.) These players are now on long term contracts with the club. Hence why SOS waited till year 4 to go hard at foot soldiers to fill that void in the age profile. No point blowing the salary on some VFL players if there's no core being developed. There's a risk, you just have to look at O'Shea who was a jet at VFL.

The refusal to get mature recruits was deliberate. You can debate that it was good decision or not but SOS is on record saying it would've kept Carlton mid-low table and wouldn't benefit in the long term.

Wait till this trade period/draft, rookie picks and mature recruits will be the focal point and it will all make sense.
Yep
It’s a good point. You’ve stayed pretty fluid with salary cap and short contracts, I mean you’ve left yourself room to move.
There’s a pretty good arguement to not have to pay full salary cap if 80-90% of your list is under 60 games I think.
That was part of the problem with Melbourne struggling for years, they had the highest paid B-C grade players.
But like I said earlier SOS’s opinion and input would have been part of the approach from Carlton to this rebuild.
You can see from GoldCoast that talent doesn’t automatically transition to a good playing group and SOS coming from GWS would have seen a great Model to follow.
But Carlton didn’t.
Has not having good quality exp players held back the development of your new kids?
You had more first rounders on the park than GWS had.
To trade like you did to Adelaide, I think it was reckless and almost as if he wouldn’t be held responsible if it goes south but he wouldn’t have made that decision in his own.
Brendan Bolton is only a little bloke but alot of people have managed to hide behind him.
 

10571z

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Four drafts to date:
2015 - am happy with all of his selections inside the first 25. JSOS cops a lot from non Carlton fans but insofar as this year is concerned, from a Carlton supporter’s perspective he has been solid and so at pick 53, I’m quite comfortable with his selection. SOS bombed on the rookie draft.
2016 - again, comfortable with the draft selections. The 3rd and 4th round selections are not best 22 regulars, but those players could go either way. Rookie selections (except for alex silvagni who, despite injury issues and a short tenure at the club, was fairly important to the backline) were another bomb.
2017!- Dow has limitations - his kicking is substandard but hopefully in time will improve as he matured. LOB is a work in progress. De Koning hasn’t had much exposure and has just returned from an injury. A projected Kreuzer replacement and am happy with his selection for now, though you can easily mount the argument that you shouldn’t blow a high (first/second round) pick on a ruckman. Garlett/Schumacher - at this stage, not sound selections though we’ll see what the new coach brings. Rookie and ore season selections were a bust.
2018 - Walsh happy. Stocker - has looked ok but he’ll always be (unfairly to him) judged against the first round pick swap. Certainly that pick swap at the time imo and even now was silly given the club finished 2-20 at season’s end and Adelaide had several injuries in 2018, but hopefully stocker turns out to be a decent player. The rest of the picks are in the TBD category, with one of the rookie selections (Bugg) turning out to be a bust.

In total, when it comes to the drafts, SOS is wretched with the rookie selections but am overall happy with the national draft picks. As for the trades, he has had a lot more misses than hits, irrespective of the cost to acquire them.
SOS has done ok at the top end but so would anyone with the herald sun basically posting the draft order the night before.

It’s the late gems and rookies that set clubs apart. Never having to rely on that at GWS maybe it has hurt Carlton.

Some of the rookies and late picks pies have nailed over the last 15 years is amazing.

Sure we have blown picks at both ends but overall very happy.

As stated above the talent Geelong continue to snatch late who have a real
Impact is a big reason they are so dominate
 

kickballfoot

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SOS has done ok at the top end but so would anyone with the herald sun basically posting the draft order the night before.

It’s the late gems and rookies that set clubs apart. Never having to rely on that at GWS maybe it has hurt Carlton.

Some of the rookies and late picks pies have nailed over the last 15 years is amazing.

Sure we have blown picks at both ends but overall very happy.

As stated above the talent Geelong continue to snatch late who have a real
Impact is a big reason they are so dominate

That’s a stretch to say anyone reading Herald Sun could draft at the pointy end.
If that’s the case why doesn’t Essendon list manager cop grief get sacked for picking Parish and Francis 5/6 When Milera, Curnow where still available.

Totally agree with the late picks/rookie selections comment, the club/SOS have already identified this as a weakness and have bought in Agresta(ex Sydney) who helped select Papley, Hewett, Rampe etc to hopefully rectify it.
 

Rich01

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What a nuff nuff post, you don't like Carlton or Silvagni but Cain Liddle is alright because he came from Richmond. Grow up.
Cain Liddle was an excellent membership manager at Richmond. He implemented a fantastic growth strategy for membership at the club.

While he was a loss to the membership team, he wouldn’t have had the chance to be CEO at a club like Richmond.

Looking forward to seeing how he goes at the Blues and the results will be in their financials, not necessarily their on field results.
 

Rich01

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You can read the post above you where I listed the cloggers and my thoughts on them - I'd imagine most Carlton fans feel the same. Maybe read it and answer the questions instead of circling back to square 1; it just makes it look like you are pushing an agenda.

What is "Premiership Depth"? - It seems that you think there is a difference between 'depth' and 'clogger', can you please enlighten me as to what the difference is? Do Collingwood have depth or cloggers because they didn't win the Premiership last year - confusing.


Completely reasonable and you'll struggle to find a Carlton fan that would disagree. Our recruitment of mature players/depth has been sub-par, as you said a better 5-6 players instead of 10 reserves ones would have helped us pinch some more wins and save Bolton. What I'm arguing is that it's clear the path SOS and his team have followed is not that dissimilar to some current successful clubs like Richmond or Collingwood, it's also naive to think we have ****** up so bad that we are beyond repair and claim that SOS is completely useless.
Cmon chunk, you’re better than that.
You know the difference between a list clogger and one that provides depth when the inevitable injuries come.

The problem with Carlton is they chose many of these guys either to be best 22 or very close to, playing them instead of trying out the kids they drafted. They haven’t been in the flag window for years, so it’s unreasonable to compare them with Richmond and Collingwood situations.

The focus of the 66 game rebuild was never on wins (or shouldn’t have been), it was on the development of the kids. Yet retreads we’re continually brought in, played and delisted in the name of what? A few extra wins in 2016, 2017 and 2018? And now they don’t have the retreads they sack the coach.

It’s crazy they relied upon these guys for 3 years and when they finally let them go and the kids aren’t up to it, they sack the coach.
 

Monkey King

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You gave back pick 19

Also paid pick 12 for Mitch McGovern...

I wouldn't be so boastful
You’ve messed up the details crucially here.

Carlton swapped future second rounders with the Crows, not “gave back pick 19”. The Carlton second rounder went live at pick 24, traded by the Crows to GWS. Adelaide’s second rounder was pick 28 at the start of the draft. Which brings us to the second glaring error; Carlton never paid pick 12 for McGovern. What Carlton handed over was this pick 28, plus pick 26, also a remanent of the Gibbs trade (pick 16 traded to Bulldogs for this pick and another second rounder). Out of pocket from the Gibbs trade, the only thing Carlton “paid” for McGovern was the right to sign McAdam. Anything received by the Crows additional to that, came at their own cost.
 

Dede

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Some of the rookies and late picks pies have nailed over the last 15 years is amazing.
As stated above the talent Geelong continue to snatch late who have a real
Impact is a big reason they are so dominate

Sorry what? Pies have won 1!!! Gf in that time with hine as the leader of the list.. even the team on Monday outside of Phillips were all early picks or trades.lol

And the cats have been held together by father and son picks and free agent signings.. forgetting the killer draft year they had with bartel and co that was a total fluke

Sos is no good but your claim is so wrong
 

10571z

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Sorry what? Pies have won 1!!! Gf in that time with hine as the leader of the list.. even the team on Monday outside of Phillips were all early picks or trades.lol

And the cats have been held together by father and son picks and free agent signings.. forgetting the killer draft year they had with bartel and co that was a total fluke

Sos is no good but your claim is so wrong
If you don’t see 3 grand final appearances and many more finals in 15 years as a success in terms of list management then we aren’t even on the same planet.
 

Dede

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If you don’t see 3 grand final appearances and many more finals in 15 years as a success in terms of list management then we aren’t even on the same planet.
You set the bar low kiddo .. funny how everyone disagrees with you on this thread hmm..

Pies rookied a guy by the name of golds from gws who to be honest was one of the worst gws rejects to get a 2nd life. But hey pies don't make mistakes
 

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Drewie11

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I expect Silvagni and Carlton will now face a further challenge as other Clubs eye off and make offers to their better young players.

As with GoCo, Carlton are at risk of being little more than a talent incubator for more successful Clubs. This will inevitably lead to CFC paying overs for a number of players attracting the interest of other Clubs and limit their ability to attract top end players who are 24yo+.
I can definitely see some clubs coming hard for some of their players now.

I must admit I didn’t think Harry McKay was going to be that good but he looks like the pick of the bunch. I could see Hawthorn or the Dogs offering a nice big deal to get him out of Carlton.
 

Bloodied52

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I can definitely see some clubs coming hard for some of their players now.

I must admit I didn’t think Harry McKay was going to be that good but he looks like the pick of the bunch. I could see Hawthorn or the Dogs offering a nice big deal to get him out of Carlton.
If Jenkins moves on, how would you see McKay fitting in at the Crows?
 

chunkylover53

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Cmon chunk, you’re better than that.
You know the difference between a list clogger and one that provides depth when the inevitable injuries come.

The problem with Carlton is they chose many of these guys either to be best 22 or very close to, playing them instead of trying out the kids they drafted. They haven’t been in the flag window for years, so it’s unreasonable to compare them with Richmond and Collingwood situations.

The focus of the 66 game rebuild was never on wins (or shouldn’t have been), it was on the development of the kids. Yet retreads we’re continually brought in, played and delisted in the name of what? A few extra wins in 2016, 2017 and 2018? And now they don’t have the retreads they sack the coach.

It’s crazy they relied upon these guys for 3 years and when they finally let them go and the kids aren’t up to it, they sack the coach.
Rubbish - that definition of depth vs clogger makes no sense. If they are playing 2's all year round barring injury to a senior player they'd be considered a clogger by opposition supporters. You can't just call other teams 2nd tier players clogger yet you're own ones depth.

Wait, let me get this straight; you're saying the reason for Carlton's current situation is because instead of picking up these players to help the kids, we should have played more kids? What? The reason we are in this predicament is because our kids have been royally belted every week with no protection. We have almost gone full Melbourne. SPS and Dow have started on-ball their whole career and have never played a VFL game despite being about 90kg combined, but you want more of that? I think you are getting confused and need to look closer at what our issues are.

Again I knew you'd come back to that argument, yet the players I listed that Collingwood and Richmond bought in were taken in over their first 5 years at their respective coaches clubs, the players I listed have been bought in over the first 4 years - it's apples for apples. I'm not comparing Richmond and Collingwoods last 3 year recruits (I didn't list any of Mayne, Wells or Yarran).

A few extra wins in 2018? We won 2 games... we played an absurd amount of kids. We pinched more wins in 2016 and 2017 but you are suggesting is we should have again, played more kids for less won games and collected 2 more spoons. So we'd be staring at our 4th consecutive spoon this year..... I think you need to take a more detailed look into our list and the 22's we have fielded the past few years.
 

La Dispute

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Young players don’t swap to go to opposition clubs in the same city. Look at every developing team over the past decade.

They’ll get an increase to correspond with their form, with a bonus approximating and projecting further development.
 

RobR

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I can definitely see some clubs coming hard for some of their players now.

I must admit I didn’t think Harry McKay was going to be that good but he looks like the pick of the bunch. I could see Hawthorn or the Dogs offering a nice big deal to get him out of Carlton.
Just signed a contract, he's ours for a couple more years yet.
 

Warhorse

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You’ve messed up the details crucially here.

Carlton swapped future second rounders with the Crows, not “gave back pick 19”. The Carlton second rounder went live at pick 24, traded by the Crows to GWS. Adelaide’s second rounder was pick 28 at the start of the draft. Which brings us to the second glaring error; Carlton never paid pick 12 for McGovern. What Carlton handed over was this pick 28, plus pick 26, also a remanent of the Gibbs trade (pick 16 traded to Bulldogs for this pick and another second rounder). Out of pocket from the Gibbs trade, the only thing Carlton “paid” for McGovern was the right to sign McAdam. Anything received by the Crows additional to that, came at their own cost.
Should have signed Corbett. Same type of player, cheaper salary, keep the draft picks
 

Pricey97

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Without the 2015 draft, Carltons list would be Fked, the worst in the league, right now i dont consider it the worst as theres been an effort to recruit young talented KPP and its been somewhat succesfull.

They almost sorted out their entire spine in that 2015 draft aswell as picking up Marchbank who has shown he’s good enough to be a KPD in a top 8 team.

Mckay/Curnow/Marchbank/Weitering at FF/CHF/CHB/FB already sorts out very important positions with talented footballers.

Cripps and now Walsh in the midfield helps, ideally they can recruit a gun midfielder and hopefully develop another 1 or 2 good mids themselves(SPS/Fisher/stocker/Dow?), not easy to do but they would then have 5 good midfielders.
 

chunkylover53

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As poor as Bolton was on match day he clearly created a positive environment and the group is tight knit. All our youngsters bar a couple are on long-term deals and never looked like leaving.

I'll be very surprised if we keep the entire group together over the next 3-4 years though.
 

Monkey King

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Should have signed Corbett. Same type of player, cheaper salary, keep the draft picks
No they shouldn’t have. McGovern has shown he has the capacity to be a match winner at AFL level, in defence or attack. His age and experience also matches an area of serious need in Carlton’s list moving forward. Even with a fractured spine interrupting his preseason and other injuries, he’s still doing better than Corbett this season.
 

10571z

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You set the bar low kiddo .. funny how everyone disagrees with you on this thread hmm..

Pies rookied a guy by the name of golds from gws who to be honest was one of the worst gws rejects to get a 2nd life. But hey pies don't make mistakes
Every disagrees Pies list management has been good? Errr ok...
 
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