Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[Juddernaut08]

This is what the Melbourne Bloke was actually pointing out. Dees 2013 list was shot to pieces

It was Viney, Gawn and T.McDonald who were young guys ready to blossom.


This is just dribble.

R2

Gold Coast had avg age of 24yr 4mth, avg games of 76.

Carlton had avg age of 24yr 6mth, avg games of 79.

Suns were slightly younger and less experienced, also just into their second game under a new coach.

R3

Carlton brought in kreuzer to boost their profile of experience.

Carlton had avg age of 24yr 6mth, avg games of 84.


Collingwood had avg age of 24yr 9mth, avg games of 86.

Basically the same team set up, which is why plenty of Carlton fans looked at Collingwood side pre-game and thought an easy win was on the cards...forwardline of Crocker, Stephenson, Josh Thomas, Cox, Aish, WHE and crippled Reid!!

There's no excuse for the Gold Coast game, agreed. We lost it mentally and at the selection table without a ruckman.

Collingwood was almost a 50/50 going in, with Kreuzer and MKennedy underdone. It was a painful loss but our team really was inexperienced all over the park. I'm going to take your figures on face value and note that Simpson at almost 300 games and at his advanced age has really ballooned our averages in this respect.

TL/DR: It's not about the average games or average age. It's about how many players you have in the peak age and games bracket. How many between 80-160 games between 23-28? Under these metrics we definitely have less peak-age players.

 

[doppleganger]

There's no excuse for the Gold Coast game, agreed. We lost it mentally and at the selection table without a ruckman.

Collingwood was almost a 50/50 going in, with Kreuzer and MKennedy underdone. It was a painful loss but our team really was inexperienced all over the park. I'm going to take your figures on face value and note that Simpson at almost 300 games and at his advanced age has really ballooned our averages in this respect.

TL/DR: It's not about the average games or average age. It's about how many players you have in the peak age and games bracket. How many between 80-160 games between 23-28? Under these metrics we definitely have less peak-age players.

I don’t know about those specific age groups.

For Carlton u100 games

R1 Blues had 16 players with under 100 games to just 13 for the Tigers.

R2 it was 17 each u100 in Blues v Suns

R3 Pies had 14 players under 100 games (Adams playing his 100th), to Carlton with 16

Pies aren’t an old or experienced team, we fielded younger team in R1 and R2 compared to Hawks and GWS.

Murray and Stephenson debuted in R1 2018
C.Brown, Crocker, Scharenberg, Cox, Phillips all only 20ish games or under

We then have a glut of guys like Grundy, WHE, Adams, Langdon, Aish, Maynard, Crisp who are 22-24 that we have been pumping games into over the last few seasons....but they are hardly established veterans.

The blues do have more seasoned veterans to offer on-field leadership.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I don’t know about those specific age groups.

For Carlton u100 games

R1 Blues had 16 players with under 100 games to just 13 for the Tigers.

R2 it was 17 each u100 in Blues v Suns

R3 Pies had 14 players under 100 games (Adams playing his 100th), to Carlton with 16

Pies aren’t an old or experienced team, we fielded younger team in R1 and R2 compared to Hawks and GWS.

Murray and Stephenson debuted in R1 2018
C.Brown, Crocker, Scharenberg, Cox, Phillips all only 20ish games or under

We then have a glut of guys like Grundy, WHE, Adams, Langdon, Aish, Maynard, Crisp who are 22-24 that we have been pumping games into over the last few seasons....but they are hardly established veterans.

The blues do have more seasoned veterans to offer on-field leadership.

Yeah man I agree there's no excuses, even with the Pies I feel like we should have done better - just explaining we were carrying a lot of newbies.

As a better comparison, let's look at the individuals.

CARLTON had these players playing in these first few weeks (games as at round 1)

1. SPS - 20 games
2. Kennedy - 19 games
3. Lamb - 48 games
4. Garlett - 17 games
5. Marchbank - 23 games
6. Weitering - 42 games
7. Fisher - 17 games
8. Cuningham - 11 games
9. Polson - 1 game
10. Curnow - 27 games
11. Dow - 0 games
12. Also played this year: Silvagni - 28 games
13. Also played this year: Byrne 15 games
14. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Pickett 6 games
15. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Lang 31 games
16. Others who we hope will be best 22 this year: McKay 2 games

That's half the team (11 of 22) with 50 games or less, with an average of 21.3 games played. So half the team on the weekend have on average not played a full season as at the start of 2018. Of those 11, 9 players with 27 games or less. Essentially that is blooding kids in the extreme.
Numbers 12-16 also show that in the mix for best 22 we have another 5 players with 31 games or less.

As a comparison, COLLINGWOOD had only 8 players under 50 games:

1. Stephenson 0 Games
2. Crocker 13 games
3. Scharenberg 14 games
4. Cox 20 games
5. C. Brown 5 Games
6. Murray 0 games
7. Phillips 24 games
8. Thomas 41 games

I won't pretend to know the rest of your list as much as Carlton's, but we were carrying an extra 3 kids. That is pretty substantial when you consider we had half the team being carried by 11 senior players. Pies had 8 kids being carried by 14 senior players.

Again, not making an excuse as I think Pies have their own injury concerns just as Carlton does, but we were at a significant disadvantage in respect of playing kids.

 

[Black white]

Carlton should never have got rid of ratten.

Carlton like Collingwood have been accepting mediocrity for years and years. We have both been sold year on year this rebuilding rubbish,blaming injuries, talk about getting used to a game plan.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Carlton should never have got rid of ratten.

Carlton like Collingwood have been accepting mediocrity for years and years. We have both been sold year on year this rebuilding rubbish,blaming injuries, talk about getting used to a game plan.

Carlton like Collingwood were coached by Malthouse

Carlton like Collingwood have had Daisy and Jordan Russell play for them

Carlton like Collingwood have had Greg Swan as CEO

 

[Blue1980]

Yeah man I agree there's no excuses, even with the Pies I feel like we should have done better - just explaining we were carrying a lot of newbies.

As a better comparison, let's look at the individuals.

CARLTON had these players playing in these first few weeks (games as at round 1)

1. SPS - 20 games
2. Kennedy - 19 games
3. Lamb - 48 games
4. Garlett - 17 games
5. Marchbank - 23 games
6. Weitering - 42 games
7. Fisher - 17 games
8. Cuningham - 11 games
9. Polson - 1 game
10. Curnow - 27 games
11. Dow - 0 games
12. Also played this year: Silvagni - 28 games
13. Also played this year: Byrne 15 games
14. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Pickett 6 games
15. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Lang 31 games
16. Others who we hope will be best 22 this year: McKay 2 games

That's half the team (11 of 22) with 50 games or less, with an average of 21.3 games played. So half the team on the weekend have on average not played a full season as at the start of 2018. Of those 11, 9 players with 27 games or less. Essentially that is blooding kids in the extreme.
Numbers 12-16 also show that in the mix for best 22 we have another 5 players with 31 games or less.

As a comparison, COLLINGWOOD had only 8 players under 50 games:

1. Stephenson 0 Games
2. Crocker 13 games
3. Scharenberg 14 games
4. Cox 20 games
5. C. Brown 5 Games
6. Murray 0 games
7. Phillips 24 games
8. Thomas 41 games

I won't pretend to know the rest of your list as much as Carlton's, but we were carrying an extra 3 kids. That is pretty substantial when you consider we had half the team being carried by 11 senior players. Pies had 8 kids being carried by 14 senior players.

Again, not making an excuse as I think Pies have their own injury concerns just as Carlton does, but we were at a significant disadvantage in respect of playing kids.

Big thing on Friday was the Pies midfield showed up to play, and we were overwhelmed and couldn't go with them.

Not an excuse, just what happened.

As for when we begin judging Bolton, probably expect to see us still fighting out games and being competitive this year (as poor as we have been we haven't been belted by anyone), and I expect us to have a few days out this year when everything clicks. Still think we can win similar to what we did last year if we don't have a big injury crisis. If we keep copping in game injuries and even with the medium level injuries we have now we will probably finish bottom 2.

Next year you would expect a jump out of the bottom reaches of the ladder. It is possible Bolton could be a crap coach, or not the guy to take us to the promised land. I think if we find that out (say still only 4-5 wins with no injury crisis next year), we will just get a new coach but the list building plans will continue unchanged.

But to get sacked this year we would have to regress to Melbourne under Mark Neeld standard or close to it (win max 3 games percentage sub 60).

 

[Black white]

Carlton like Collingwood were coached by Malthouse

Carlton like Collingwood have had Daisy and Jordan Russell play for them

Carlton like Collingwood have had Greg Swan as CEO

So, you agree we have both accepted mediocrity?

 

[BPikkers]

I think it’s fair to say that Brisbane have moved ahead of the Blues. Their recruiting has been first class and I think what seems like fewer very high draft picks than the blues over the past few years.

They have also recruited hacks from other clubs (walker frontbencher cats and Bell from the blues to name a couple), and, just like the blues have lost an important established player in Rockliff.

However, it seems like they have more ‘leaders’ at the club and the recruitment of Hodge was a master stroke imo.

You can see where they are heading. At this point, it seems the blues have 1 strategy. And that is to grab as many young kids as possible in the hope of unearthing a couple of real stars.

It’s seems they may have with Curnow, but it’s a high risk strategy if the support doesn’t improve a hell of a lot.

Why the blues haven’t dangled 1st round picks to get top established players around 24-25yrs is surprising. I think their focus is very narrow and could be their undoing.

Doesn’t make Bolton’s job easy

 

[Juddernaut08]

So, you agree we have both accepted mediocrity?

I haven't thought about it much, was just drawing the multiple sad, sad parallels that we seem to share.

To answer your question:

Collingwood

1. Collingwood were aiming for sustained greatness which is why they got rid of Malthouse for their succession plan. If it works, they're geniuses as they had a Premiership list of core players, they had a favourite son as coach and they had a lot of resources behind them.
2. It wasn't so much accepting mediocrity after that, it was more denial that it was mediocrity. Years and years of excuses were given for Bucks' performances and rightly or wrongly, he was defended to the hilt because it's hard to admit mistakes, especially when they probably cost a few more years of at least being contenders.

Carlton

• Carlton too were aiming to take the next step. We were a top 6 team and thought we could be top 4. We had the great Judd and thought if we had an elite coach like Malthouse, we'd get there.
• We accepted years of mediocrity and shitty list management decisions because of denial and blind faith in someone who had achieved so much. Problem is that he was either past it or was no longer motivated due to scars from his battle with Nafan, Eddie and co.
• I think we stopped that when we got Bolton and started looking at process over reputation and short term fixes. We've really gone money-ball in what we've done, so much so that there's plenty of people who don't even understand what our strategy has been. An example of this is criticism of the GWS list-cloggers we brought in. What people don't realise is that these were genius decisions where we got to take on salary dumps instead of having to give up higher picks. People argued that if we wanted plowman, we'd need to give up a late first rounder. In the end, GWS accepted pick 28 if we took on salary dumps for guys like Sumner and Palmer. It's not that we believed these cloggers were going to be good, we took them so that we wouldn't have to give up more draft picks.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I think it’s fair to say that Brisbane have moved ahead of the Blues. Their recruiting has been first class and I think what seems like fewer very high draft picks than the blues over the past few years.

They have also recruited hacks from other clubs (walker frontbencher cats and Bell from the blues to name a couple), and, just like the blues have lost an important established player in Rockliff.

However, it seems like they have more ‘leaders’ at the club and the recruitment of Hodge was a master stroke imo.

You can see where they are heading. At this point, it seems the blues have 1 strategy. And that is to grab as many young kids as possible in the hope of unearthing a couple of real stars.

It’s seems they may have with Curnow, but it’s a high risk strategy if the support doesn’t improve a hell of a lot.

Why the blues haven’t dangled 1st round picks to get top established players around 24-25yrs is surprising. I think their focus is very narrow and could be their undoing.

Doesn’t make Bolton’s job easy

strange comment. both are on 0 wins and have struggled.

 

[BPikkers]

strange comment. both are on 0 wins and have struggled.

They are playing a lot better football than the blues. You may disagree and that’s fine. Have you watched them play this year?

 

[PP34]

I think it’s fair to say that Brisbane have moved ahead of the Blues. Their recruiting has been first class and I think what seems like fewer very high draft picks than the blues over the past few years.

They have also recruited hacks from other clubs (walker frontbencher cats and Bell from the blues to name a couple), and, just like the blues have lost an important established player in Rockliff.

However, it seems like they have more ‘leaders’ at the club and the recruitment of Hodge was a master stroke imo.

You can see where they are heading. At this point, it seems the blues have 1 strategy. And that is to grab as many young kids as possible in the hope of unearthing a couple of real stars.

It’s seems they may have with Curnow, but it’s a high risk strategy if the support doesn’t improve a hell of a lot.

Why the blues haven’t dangled 1st round picks to get top established players around 24-25yrs is surprising. I think their focus is very narrow and could be their undoing.

Doesn’t make Bolton’s job easy

Yet the Lions are in the exact same position as we are right now.

 

[Juddernaut08]

They are playing a lot better football than the blues. You may disagree and that’s fine. Have you watched them play this year?

Yes. And I disagree.

I'd rather either list over the Pies mess. Do you agree?

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah man I agree there's no excuses, even with the Pies I feel like we should have done better - just explaining we were carrying a lot of newbies.

As a better comparison, let's look at the individuals.

CARLTON had these players playing in these first few weeks (games as at round 1)

1. SPS - 20 games
2. Kennedy - 19 games
3. Lamb - 48 games
4. Garlett - 17 games
5. Marchbank - 23 games
6. Weitering - 42 games
7. Fisher - 17 games
8. Cuningham - 11 games
9. Polson - 1 game
10. Curnow - 27 games
11. Dow - 0 games
12. Also played this year: Silvagni - 28 games
13. Also played this year: Byrne 15 games
14. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Pickett 6 games
15. Others who we think will be best 22 this year: Lang 31 games
16. Others who we hope will be best 22 this year: McKay 2 games

That's half the team (11 of 22) with 50 games or less, with an average of 21.3 games played. So half the team on the weekend have on average not played a full season as at the start of 2018. Of those 11, 9 players with 27 games or less. Essentially that is blooding kids in the extreme.
Numbers 12-16 also show that in the mix for best 22 we have another 5 players with 31 games or less.

As a comparison, COLLINGWOOD had only 8 players under 50 games:

1. Stephenson 0 Games
2. Crocker 13 games
3. Scharenberg 14 games
4. Cox 20 games
5. C. Brown 5 Games
6. Murray 0 games
7. Phillips 24 games
8. Thomas 41 games

I won't pretend to know the rest of your list as much as Carlton's, but we were carrying an extra 3 kids. That is pretty substantial when you consider we had half the team being carried by 11 senior players. Pies had 8 kids being carried by 14 senior players.

Again, not making an excuse as I think Pies have their own injury concerns just as Carlton does, but we were at a significant disadvantage in respect of playing kids.

Yep Carlton has a few more younger guys, and more seasoned senior guys to guide them and balance it out.

Pies had three blokes Aish, Maynard and Langdon who played 55, 51 and 57 games respectively. Hardly experienced senior players as you call them.

Add those 3 to the other eight you listed and we have 11 players with an average of 25 games played...half the team had barely played a season of football.

Also Smith, Broomhead and Moore have played in 2018 but were all injured...all hv played less than 50 games.

DeGoey, Daicos and Wills are three other kids who are yet to feature in 2018 who toyed with the Carlton VFL team on Saturday...expect all three to get a run soon.

Pies are a young team who have been rebuilding without requiring a bottom four finish.

Carlton fans trying to play the ‘beaten by much more experienced sides’ line are simply fooling themselves.

 

[BPikkers]

Yet the Lions are in the exact same position as we are right now.

Almost beat Port last week and had a chance in the last qtr against Melb in round 2.

The blues have been comprehensively beaten in all 3 games. I think Brisbane are looking dangerous.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Yep Carlton has a few more younger guys, and more seasoned senior guys to guide them and balance it out.

Pies had three blokes Aish, Maynard and Langdon who played 55, 51 and 57 games respectively. Hardly experienced senior players as you call them.

Add those 3 to the other eight you listed and we have 11 players with an average of 25 games played...half the team had barely played a season of football.

Also Smith, Broomhead and Moore have played in 2018 but were all injured...all hv played less than 50 games.

DeGoey, Daicos and Wills are three other kids who are yet to feature in 2018 who toyed with the Carlton VFL team on Saturday...expect all three to get a run soon.

Pies are a young team who have been rebuilding without requiring a bottom four finish.

Carlton fans trying to play the ‘beaten by much more experienced sides’ line are simply fooling themselves.

We can talk about the teams that played and there's weird nitpicky stats wither of us can pull.

Looking at the lists:

Pies are 3rd most experienced by games played, and 4th oldest.
Carlton are 14th and 14th.
https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2018

 

[demondavey]

Carlton should never have got rid of ratten.

Carlton like Collingwood have been accepting mediocrity for years and years. We have both been sold year on year this rebuilding rubbish,blaming injuries, talk about getting used to a game plan.

You’ve got to look at how the good clubs do it. And I am in the same boat with how I feel about Melbourne rebuilding. It’s an excuse to deliver mediocre results and get away with it. We did it for a decade. It took us to Paul Roos to actually move out of a hole.

Hawthorn and Geelong had 1-2 dips at the draft. 01 and 04. Other than that they traded in players, developed picks from late selections and built a winning culture.

It should take a Club a preseason and maybe 5-10 games to get used to a game plan. There’s enough resources at AFL level to get them ready. As far as injuries go well that’s just a cop out. We’ve had a B grade management plan for our injured players and I am concerned about Viney and McDonald getting back. If injuries are a problem for Carlton and Collingwood still, then sack your fitness coach.

There’s no such thing as rebuilding in my opinion. You dip into the draft and get what you need but set the club apart by developing culture. It’s no coincidence that Geelong & Hawthorn are still better teams than Carlton and Collingwood.

Carlton fouled up by recruiting Malthouse and Collingwood Buckley. They’ve produced nothing and Malthouse was eventually sacked. Bolton will need to show that Carlton do have a place to go next year, because as a Blues fan you’d want to be well away from bottom 6 in 2019.

 

[demondavey]

Almost beat Port last week and had a chance in the last qtr against Melb in round 2.

The blues have been comprehensively beaten in all 3 games. I think Brisbane are looking dangerous.

Brisbane are going to win games sooner rather than later. I am not sure who they play this week but they’ll be a chance if they’ve got within 5 points of Port.

 

[BPikkers]

Yes. And I disagree.

I'd rather either list over the Pies mess. Do you agree?

You know what I’m not sure. Apart from Cripps and Curnow, and possibly Marchbank (although I think the jury is still out on him as a KPP), I haven’t really seen all these potential superstars come on. We haven’t had the picks but we have probably one of the best young ruckman in the league. I think DeGoey and Moore are going to be beauties. Treloar, Elliot etc. We could do with another KPP. But we have some depth coming through. Watch how we beat your VFL team by 130 points on the weekend and you’ll see some of the kids coming through who weren’t high profile early picks like the blues have had but probably just as good if not better. And remember it only takes 1 draft to really make a difference.

 

[fnerd]

I think it’s fair to say that Brisbane have moved ahead of the Blues. Their recruiting has been first class and I think what seems like fewer very high draft picks than the blues over the past few years.

They have also recruited hacks from other clubs (walker frontbencher cats and Bell from the blues to name a couple), and, just like the blues have lost an important established player in Rockliff.

However, it seems like they have more ‘leaders’ at the club and the recruitment of Hodge was a master stroke imo.

You can see where they are heading. At this point, it seems the blues have 1 strategy. And that is to grab as many young kids as possible in the hope of unearthing a couple of real stars.

It’s seems they may have with Curnow, but it’s a high risk strategy if the support doesn’t improve a hell of a lot.

Why the blues haven’t dangled 1st round picks to get top established players around 24-25yrs is surprising. I think their focus is very narrow and could be their undoing.
Doesn’t make Bolton’s job easy

Yep seems to be the case .

On access all areas today they showed a stat where Carlton actaully have the most 1st rounders since 2010.
16-carlton ....(gws was second with 15)
Absolute damning stat for the blues as most myself included, thought GWS had the most.
For all the wank blues fans go on about slivagni,seems the only way he can go about "building " a list is thru sheer weight of numbers of first round picks,eventually hoping you ll snag a few match winners.

Load the team up with said first rounders,watch them rack up the losses ,finish lowly again,go to the draft with more first rounders,trade any experienced player for,yet again,more first rounders ...rinse and repeat

The scary part for blues fans is Its not too much different from back in the mid 2000s where,after finally learning you cant just buy the best players,you had to go the draft. So off they went to load up on no1 s(by tanking,not salary cap breaches but still cheating all the same) and thought thats how its done in the new world of afl.

The part about using some first rounders to get some experienced players in is spot on the money.

But carlton seem to be trading the other way (experienced players for yet more draft picks)
Its been shown time and time again,you need a balance but they dont seemed to have got it. Melbourne eventually did.
While still keeping some of their high picks they then proceeded to trade their others for experienced players,in areas of need.

Carlton are yet to do this and with SOS in charge cant see much changing unfortunately for blues fans which will only increase the heat on bolten.

I reckon hes headed the same way as ratten and we all know how that turned out for the blues

 

[demondavey]

Big thing on Friday was the Pies midfield showed up to play, and we were overwhelmed and couldn't go with them.

Not an excuse, just what happened.

As for when we begin judging Bolton, probably expect to see us still fighting out games and being competitive this year (as poor as we have been we haven't been belted by anyone), and I expect us to have a few days out this year when everything clicks. Still think we can win similar to what we did last year if we don't have a big injury crisis. If we keep copping in game injuries and even with the medium level injuries we have now we will probably finish bottom 2.

Next year you would expect a jump out of the bottom reaches of the ladder. It is possible Bolton could be a crap coach, or not the guy to take us to the promised land. I think if we find that out (say still only 4-5 wins with no injury crisis next year), we will just get a new coach but the list building plans will continue unchanged.

But to get sacked this year we would have to regress to Melbourne under Mark Neeld standard or close to it (win max 3 games percentage sub 60).

If you get absolutely smashed one week (120 points say) and it’s come after consecutive losses, then you’d be concerned and may sack him.

 

[Juddernaut08]

You know what I’m not sure. Apart from Cripps and Curnow, and possibly Marchbank (although I think the jury is still out on him as a KPP), I haven’t really seen all these potential superstars come on. We haven’t had the picks but we have probably one of the best young ruckman in the league. I think DeGoey and Moore are going to be beauties. Treloar, Elliot etc. We could do with another KPP. But we have some depth coming through. Watch how we beat your VFL team by 130 points on the weekend and you’ll see some of the kids coming through who weren’t high profile early picks like the blues have had but probably just as good if not better. And remember it only takes 1 draft to really make a difference.

Fair response. I do like a few of your prospects and Moore/Grundy are two players I'd be confident will become A-graders. The rest of the names I'm not as confident on but you could say the same about names that I'd rattle off.

VFL was embarrassing, but Pies are one of the oldest team in the league though, so you'd expect your depth to beat ours.

 

[BPikkers]

Yep seems to be the case . On access all areas today they showed a stat where Carlton actaully have tbe most 1st rounders since 2010.
16-carlton ....(gws was second with 15)
Absolute damning stat for the blues as most myself included, thought GWS had the most.
For all the wank blues fans go on about slivagni,seems the only way he can go about "building " a list is thru sheer weight of numbers of first round picks,eventually hoping you ll snag a few match winners.

Load the team up with said first rounders,watch them rack up the losses ,finish lowly again,go to the draft with more first rounders,trade any experienced player for,yet again,more first rounders ...rinse and repeat

The scary part for blues fans is Its not too much different from back in the mid 2000s where,after finally learning you cant just buy the best players,you had to go the draft. So off they went to load up on no1 s(by tanking,not salary cap breaches but still cheating all the same) and thought thats how its done i the new world of afl.

The part about using some first rounders to get some experienced players in is spot on the money.

But carlton seem to be trading the other way (experienced players for yet more draft picks)
Its been shown time and time again,you need a balance but they dont seemed to have got it. Melbourne did. While still keeping some of their high picks they then proceeded to trade their others for experienced players,in areas of need.
Carlton are yet to do this and with SOS in charge cant see much changing unfortunately for blues fans

I don’t think they know how to rebuild. I think they are just throwing themselves at the draft trying to unearth stars. No understanding on building an actual ‘team’.

Not saying the Pies are anything special but what I can say is that when we had a couple of drafts with top 10 picks, we at least were able to show a premiership for it. The blues have had far more over the years and still need more time.

 

[evo]

I had carlton as a big riser this season. Looks like I may have gone a bit early.

Signs aren't great thus far.

 

[BPikkers]

We can talk about the teams that played and there's weird nitpicky stats wither of us can pull.

Looking at the lists:

Pies are 3rd most experienced by games played, and 4th oldest.
Carlton are 14th and 14th.
https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2018

This is a joke right?
You are taking about a list but not about who actually played???!!!