I think he's better than the trio you put him with. Opinions hey?
Stephen Silvagni v Alex Rance
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- Jun 22, 2008
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Myth. He conclusively stopped Ablett twice, firstly when Ablett was a week short of his 34th birthday and SOS himself was in his prime at 28 years of age in the '95 gf and then again in Ablett's 2nd last ever game when he was a month shy of his 35th birthday. The truth is, SoS never played on Ablett when Ablett was in his prime. Prime Ablett played up the ground, he was breathtaking, much better to watch than the heavy full forward of his last 4 seasons. We should probably also remember that Silvagni is 9cm taller than Ablett.
Silvagni debuted in 1985 and spent quite a bit of time as a spasmodic forward who was in and out of the side. Ablett played against Carlton 20 times in total, 19 of those games while Silvagni was active.
1985 - wouldn't have played on each other.
15 touches and 2 goals. Silvagni didn't play.
11 touches and 1 goal. Silvagni also had 11 touches and kicked a goal.
1986 - wouldn't have played on each other.
13 touches and 6 goals 2 behinds. Silvagni didn't play.
15 touches and 7 goals 3 behinds. Silvagni had 11 touches and kicked 1 goal 1 behind.
1987 - doubtful they played on each other, Ablett was still mostly up the ground and floating around the forward line.
12 touches and 1 goal 3 behinds. Silvagni had 6 touches, 4 of them from free kicks. Silvagni was out of the seniors for 8 weeks following this game.
1988 -
16 touches and 4 goals 4 behinds. Silvagni had 16 touches and got the 3 Brownlow votes. I'd doubt he played on Ablett. The amount of touches Ablett had for his 8 shots on goal suggests he was further up the ground. Not sure where SoS would have played to get those votes. I note that Geelong won by 11 points with 6 extra scoring shots but Carlton players picked up 2 of the 3 lots of Brownlow votes on offer.
14 touches for 2 behinds. Silvagni had 18 touches and kicked a behind, I'd doubt again that they were on each other.
1989 - looks like both played forward for their respective teams.
15 touches and 1 behind. Silvagni 11 touches and 1 goal 3 suggests they didn't play on each other.
1990 - looks like both played forward for their respective teams.
19 touches and 4 goals 4 behinds. Silvagni 19 touches and 2 goals 1.
1991 - SoS didn't play this game.
19 touches and 3 goals 5 behinds after retiring for the first half of the season. Silvagni didn't play that day.
1992 - wouldn't have played on each other.
17 touches 5 goals 7 behinds and 3 Brownlow votes. Silvagni 7 touches and 2 goals 2 behinds.
1993 - SoS didn't play
6 touches and 3 goals 1 behind. Silvagni didn't play.
1994 - Win to Ablett in probably all 3 games or at least the last two.
11 touches 3 goals 3 behinds. Silvagni 15 touches
10 touches 5 goals 2 behinds. Silvagni 11 touches
11 touches 6 goals 3 behinds. Silvagni 4 touches
1995 -
10 touches 4 goals 5 behinds. Silvagni 9 touches.
11 touches 0 goals 3 behinds. Silvagni 8 touches.
1996 -
9 touches and 3 goals. Silvagni 7 touches, 3 from free kicks.
5 touches 1 goal 1 behind. Silvagni 9 touches.
I reckon they played directly on each other 7 times, you could make a case for Ablett winning a minimum of 3 and as many as 5 of those contests. Due to the higher scoring nature of the game at the time, perhaps the 3 goal games from Ablett would be considered a draw. Silvagni obviously wins the '95 gf contest and you'd think Ablett's 2nd last ever game in '96 when Ablett was a month shy of his 35th birthday and Silvagni was a prime 29 year old.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Yep, neither of Scarlett of Rance had, had their careers yet.
- Jun 22, 2008
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SoS, Scarlett, Rance, Lake
Dench
Moore, Southby, Langford
Glass, Ratten, Michael and the like.
is McGovern even a fullback?
Dench
Moore, Southby, Langford
Glass, Ratten, Michael and the like.
is McGovern even a fullback?
Sure no problems with that opinion, some will differ
I was born in 1990 so I can't comment on Langford, so I exclude him from my views having not seen him.
Well that's wrong. Silvagni played in more premierships, more grand finals and a whopping 18 more total finals.
C Heston
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You misinterpreted my post. I’m saying that due to Carlton’s lack of success this century, they’ve become a club that no one cares about. Richmond are hated and feared, so more people are inclined to vote against Rance in this thread.
So you reckon the most neutral observers who won't insert any of their own interests or bias in the discussion are Richmond supporters?
Silvagni was an absolute champion of the game and one of the best we've seen and that's the nature of the beast. Rance was an outstanding defender for five or six years, Silvagni played at the top level on the best forwards the game has seen for well over 10 years, and as noted by others, he was also extremely good everywhere else that they tried him.
C Heston
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Is your opinion meant to carry weight or something? You’re just another Richmond troll.
Silvagni played in an era where the rules helped the defenders. Rance played in an era where the rules helped the forwards. If Rance played under Silvagni’s rules, this would be a non-contest. The fact Silvagni got to play against undersized key forwards in a time where you could basically assault your opponent is the only thing keeping him in this race.
Whoever voted for Rance are either deluded Richmond supporters or are under the age of 20.
Haha, what?
Defenders never had it any easier with flooding/rolling defense/zone tactics/etc. Defense structures are a much more cohesive unit now, where the backs help each other a lot now, give a lot more chop-outs, etc to such an extent that FBs are able to rebound more often than not. These things didn't exist in SOS' time... sure he'd have the occasional chop-out from someone like a McKay/Christou/Sexton etc but there were vastly more one on one contests.
It's this kind of nonsense posts that have little understanding of the game, that with no conincidence, are rating Rance higher than ATGs like SOS and Scarlett. Rance isn't an ATG. What has he done to achieve that title?
Silvagni did his ankle in the first quarter for the last game and didn't even play 90% of the match.
Oh, and that 3.3 game would be a win considering he kicked 129 goals that year (averaging 5.2 game). Silvagni kept him below that average. That's a win.
But continue to skew the statistics to Ablett's favour.
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What I'm saying is current, modern-day rules favour defenders a lot more than they did in Silvagni's period. They get a LOT more help against their direct opponent. That's an objective fact. Why do you think no one's kicking 100+ goals anymore?
Lmao
- Jun 22, 2008
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No he didn't. His career was 17 years but he didn't spend over a decade as a top line full back.
What season was it when Silvagni was finally settled at full back?
All Australian sides during his career :
These were all of the possible key defenders I can find that were selected as All Australians during the Carnival Era while Silvagni was playing.
1985 - Roos and Pert.
1986 - Kevin Walsh is the only key defender I can see in the players selected.
1987 - Andrew Rogers, Chris Langford and Paul Roos
1988 - Terry Daniher, Danny Hughes, Martin Leslie, Danny Frawley and Paul Roos
From 1990 onwards, it's been an annual thing :
1991 - Anthony Daniher and Paul Roos. Silvagni only played 9 games. I don't know whether that was through form or injury, a Carlton supporter can probably tell us.
1992 - Paul Roos and Barry Stoneham. Silvagni only played 12 games. I don't know whether that was through form or injury, a Carlton supporter can probably tell us.
1993 - Alastair Lynch and Mark Harvey. lol, Harvey was a flanker and was named as a key defender, why couldn't Silvagni get in, he played 22 games for the season. It shows that Silvagni kicked 20.14 for the season including bags of 10 and 4 in consecutive weeks tells me that SoS was still being used as a forward quite a bit.
1994 - Silvagni and Jackovich. I think this looks likely as the first season SoS was primarily a defender for the great majority of the season.
1995 - Silvagni and Jackovich. I reckon there was 4 games of the 24 he played in this season when he was played as a forward.
1996 - Silvagni and Roos.
1997 - Silvagni and Sexton.
1998 - McIntosh and Wellman. Silvagni played 18 games, I reckon 9 as a forward and 9 as a defender.
1999 - Leppitsch and Silvagni. SoS played 20 h&a games and I reckon 9 of them as a forward, * knows why they picked him as the chb in the AA side.
2000 - Fletcher and Gaspar.
2001 - Pavlich (lol) and Leppitsch.
Silvagni named at FB in the Australian Rules Football, Hall of Fame, Team of the Century off the back of 3 consecutive All Australians, lol.
Silvagni AA : 94, 95, 96, 97 and 99. Why was he even selected in 99? First selected at 27 years of age and last at 32 years of age.
Scarlett AA : 03, 04, 07, 08, 09 and 11. First selected at 24 years of age and last at 32 years of age.
Rance AA : 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18. First selected at 24 years of age and last at 28 years of age.
Glass AA : 06, 07, 11 and 12. First selected at 25 years of age and last at 31 years of age.
Lake AA : 09, and 10
McGovern AA : 16, 17, 18 and 19
This is f'ing hilarious.
Lockett dished out a lot more than he copped from defenders, he'd flatten his opponents. Isolated one on one without the help from Grimes/Astbury, no zoning, no flooding, none of the tactics that help... Lockett would kick 20 on him. That's assuming Rance isn't a pile of mangled Aladdin-wannabe on the ground.
C Heston
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Because of tactics/flooding. How do modern rules help defenders? Silvagni played in an era where you could chop the arms and you were less likely to get penalised for pushing in the back or holding the man. There’s also more umpires on the ground these days.
SOS was selected in '88 and '90. So if you include those, that's 2 more AAs.
Gary Ablett Sr was only All-Australian four times, first of which came in 1992 so I guess he couldn't have been too good before then. If you're gonna put things down purely to All-Australian selections then you're having a laugh. That is an incredibly ignorant post from beginning to finish.
You are just validating my point further of defenders having it easier with current game tactics. Rule changes have helped push the game's tactics in the current state that it is now, that's how they help.
Forwards used to do the same thing. In fact, Lockett used to literally monster his opponent - would probably be out of the game for a lot of the time because he whacked someone. The rules relating the chopping someone's arms is going to have a significantly less impact than how the game is actually played today re: tactics. Because even today, despite the extra officiating, you still get defenders (and forwards) chopping the arms, tugging on umpires, etc. Just that the standard of umpiring is so s**t these days that they're never consistent about it. So don't pretend the rules have such a great impact, or would if prime-SOS was suddenly time-traveled to today's game.
I'll also note that Fletcher and Scarlett's careers overlap Silvagni's, they transitioned into the modern game with these rule changes just fine. But for some stupid reason, SOS, an ATG, could not. It's always been a moronic argument, made by people who either haven't seen SOS play much or just hate him.
