Opinion Stephen Silvagni

ferrisb

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Not much new here, but airing a bit of dirty laundry.


SOS apparently gave the board a piece of his mind before he resigned...
 

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Stamos

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I have a fairly good insight into how the Richmond FC transitioned from the basket case financially and culturally around 2000 to the club it is today. One of the turning points was getting the old players etc back in embracing the club. Bartlett and Caroline Wilson were high profile people who were anti tigers for a long time due to the admin and culture. When Gale came in he acted like a conduit between the old and the new. he mended bridges and got rid of the problems....Its quite easy to see that this is starting to happen at the Blues as well- look at Diesal , look at some of the recent reunions.

Could it be that Liddle who was Gales rh man , wants to emulate what Gale did and try to finally rid the blues of this bullshit old boys culture? i dont know- just speculating. I know jakschit about whats going on internally .
As the saying goes- to make an omelet you need to break a few eggs. Could it be that SOS is one of those eggs that had to be broken? Too much power with not enough accountability. Could it be that his performance as list manager is irrelevant in the big scheme picture that CL has envisioned. Sure he looks like the messiah coming in after the 2 amateurs he succeeded, but he has had carte blanche , lots of low picks to work with and has done a good job. But is it a job that others could not have done? Maybe, maybe not. As I have stated before, the SOS selections remain full of potential, but to date there are questions over many of them- Walsh being the obvious exception.

If my working theory is correct, that CL is a driven, ambitious CEO who has learnt a lot from Gale at richmond, then there will be forces at work enabling him to make his omelet. I dont know who- I will leave that up to others who might know to fill in the blanks, but the mystery is whether it would be someone like MLG who is close to SOS, but also wants to right the ship, or whether it is someone else .

As I have said , I have no insight into whats happening. I see 2 very competent players in SOS and CL seemingly at war with one another. I do not know the rights and wrongs of the situation. The question is, has CL f’ed up as many are saying? Or has he had some support from somewhere to stir the pot and break a few eggs? Was CL an AFL "suggestion" as CEO? How does the fairly robust support (until it disappeared) for Bolton an honest outsider trying to change our culture, relate to the omelet? Is there a genuine push internally to finally rid ourselves of the last parts of the boys club and change into a modern club ? Is MLG part of the problem? Or part of the solution? There seems to be the emergence of some real agendas on here of late, which always happens- when we go into crisis mode- emotive rhetoric arcs up and the place becomes a shit fight. Hopefully this wont happen and we can start dealing in some facts .
For mine, I dont have a horse in the race other than our magnificent club. If SOS has to go because he is an egg that has to be broken- fine. If CL has done the wrong thing and gone rogue as some have suggested, then fine - he should go. If MLG has been asleep at the wheel and allowed this all to blow up, when there was no need to- then we need a better President.
Your 2 positions of bringing the club together/mending past fractures and ‘breaking some eggs’ are contradictory.
 

HARKER

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Thanks HARKER, great that you've taken the time to set us all straight.
But be fair Kramer1
Too many posts here simply go the man and add nothing of value to the conversation.

Sorry to have used that example as i could have picked out many more and I'm not discouraging discourse at all. Quite the contrary.
That isn't a bad thing is it?
 
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Stamos

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My concerns with SOS are crystalized by SOS’s statement after this years draft that our pick 20 “was a free hit” - the implication being that we could pick a “reach” or that it didn’t matter if the pick didn’t come off.

These picks that we engineered should not be treated with such profligacy by SOS - they are valuable, whilst Sam Philp May turn into a good player, the percentage play was picking the still available Robertson.

SOS did a similar thing with pick 10 in 2017 Draft reaching for O’Brien.

Does the hard work in engineering additional picks, or trading away valuable assets in Gibbs and Tuohy, them wastes it on reaching picks and overpaying.

It displays a pigheadedness and naivety.
Are you a professional recruiter?
I think you’ll find that clubs rate players in different orders, and neither player was considered a ‘reach’.
 

Kramer1

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But be fair Kramer1
Too many posts here simply go the man and add nothing of value to the conversation.

Sorry to have used that example as i could have picked out many more and I'm not discouraging discourse at all. Quite the contrary.
That isn't a bad thing is it?
The suggestion that a list manager would engineer a quality pick to then pick up a dart and throw vaguely in the direction of a dart board...and then call them out for naivety...I just...I can't...

I too am trying to encourage quality discourse...just not with a carrot.
 

Stamos

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So you want the List Manager, CEO and Pres gone in a 12 month period?

Cain Liddle is a professional. His issue is going into bat for a Senior Coach who wasn't getting listened to. He shouldn't be losing his job for that
Going in to bat for the coach is pretty different to approaching opposition players behind the back of the list manager.
 

agro

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I think you're reading far too much into a comment made to highlight that the extra pick was a complete freebie, and we didn't have to "compromise" to get it. Wanted Kemp, got Kemp, also got a free hit at 20.

I also think it's clear that Philp was an astute pick up. Sounding like plenty of clubs were interested at the picks following ours. He has a good head on his shoulders, a strong work ethic, and some really impressive athletic attributes. Read the comments from the Knights talent manager, it paints a clear picture. This wasn't a "reach" for the sake of it, it was a targeted acquisition of a player who impressed the hell out of the club's recruiters, and happens to fit the specific needs the coach has apparently laid out.

Clubs that are already overloaded with midfielders- like Richmond were interested in Philp.

Clubs like us who are not overloaded with midfielders (and will struggle when or if our premier midfielder Cripps gets injured) - should have gone and would have gone for the percentage pick in Robertson, not Philp.

I wish Philp all the best - and hope he becomes the player he needs to be for us.
 

Kramer1

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Clubs that are already overloaded with midfielders- like Richmond were interested in Philp.

Clubs like us who are not overloaded with midfielders (and will struggle when or if our premier midfielder Cripps gets injured) - should have gone and would have gone for the percentage pick in Robertson, not Philp.

I wish Philp all the best - and hope he becomes the player he needs to be for us.
Geelong just lost Tim Kelly and went for De Koning over Robertson..is Wells naive and pigheaded too?
 

JustaBattler

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How did Ratten and Malthouse interfere?
I’m sure all coaches and coaching staff brief their recruiting team about the type of players they want or feel will benefit the team.
This is an interesting discussion in its own right.

I'm on the side of coaches having serious input into trading and to a lesser extent drafting and quite liked to see Teague at the table on draft night.
However
this input has to be weighed against the overall balance and settings of the list at any particular point in time.

I imagine that sides with 'set lists' can concentrate much more on immediate 'needs' than sides whose lists are in the process of being put together.

With Hawthorn/Geelong/Richmond I see strong evidence of trades being made to plug immediate needs - all the time - whilst later picks are about longer term development

Carlton during rebuild were in no position (or lets say in a compromised position) to address so called 'immediate needs' - the overall balance of the list and the reality of building from base zero suited a medium term approach to construction. Talls/Mids and then the 'rest'.

This year saw the first indications of looking to trade in for needs (eg Papley)

what will ensure that the rebuild continues to be as good as possible under anyone's watch - is that both quality and value in traded in players ticked. Inexperienced operators will tend to overpay for a perceived key target - this is cardinal error #1 in portfolio construction. Inexperienced managers will also tend to hold on to an underperforming player for too long - this is cardinal error #2 in portfolio management.

What makes for an excellent List Manager is ruthlessness and focus on continual marginal improvement to both 'duration' of playing list ie average age being balanced AND satisfying needs.

There is an inherent 'tension' always between what a coach might want right now and what good list management demands.

I think talk of what Ratten did or didn't do has to be considered in the light of a basket case Club at the time - and the pressure he was always under to out perform.

In the case of Malthouse - I think he was just out of control and full of unjustified hubris in every area that he touched.

Carlton has moved from individual 'messiah' to a more corporate model throughout the organisation - however this movement necessarily involved a period of great control over list management ( portfolio construction) to SOS - because sometimes in early stages of business building - leadership and fast results is about giving total control over to the type of person who can actually do the job.

The next list manger inherits a much better balanced list and the opportunity for more coach involvement increases accordingly.
 

bigm386

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I don't want him to go either, but we could not 'manage' the situation.

Here's what I heard and I must say that some of it could be incorrect and some of it has been raised through the course of the year:
Silvagni has been a thorn in peoples side for some time now, including Boltons. They did not get on.
The real heat started coming on earlier this year when it was realised that SOS wielded too much power at the club.
The heat also contained the way we treated some possible recruits and the way we viewed our later and rookie selections.
Liddle wanted a review of the situation but SOS did not like this idea at all.
Other football department people didn't get on with SOS either and Teague's needs were dismissed. (Big problem)

* I want to see this one play out but it's possible a board member has sided with Liddle, whereas MLG sided with SOS.

This is the interesting part to me should the fight also be in the board room and you know what? It bloody well should be.
This is the first year to me that we actually used the rookie draft for players with upside rather than recycled spuds. So are you saying that SOS didn't get his way this year?
 

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Blue__Balls

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Clubs that are already overloaded with midfielders- like Richmond were interested in Philp.

Clubs like us who are not overloaded with midfielders (and will struggle when or if our premier midfielder Cripps gets injured) - should have gone and would have gone for the percentage pick in Robertson, not Philp.

I wish Philp all the best - and hope he becomes the player he needs to be for us.
Cripps, Setterfield, Walsh, Murphy, Curnow, Stocker, Dow, Fisher, SPS, Kennedy, Gibbons, Cuningham...

I mean, we've got plenty of mids, just that lots of them are stil developing. Robertson doesn't help that.

I'm also not sure why you're so sure he's the "percentage pick" - is it just that the draft coverage had him going higher? Some had him top 10, but that was on the basis that Freo would take him as a local prospect. Outside that he was expected to go in the later teens, so we haven't gone and passed on an "elite" slider.

Philp is clearly a very hard worker, has a great athletic profile, improved throughout the year, and featured in the Knights' bests in 24 consecutive games. He averaged 22 disposals, 6 tackles and 6 clearances a game - it's not like he's a raw, rangey tall - he had a strong season and addresses an obvious need.

How did Robertson interview?
 

Lace_Out

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It's no secret that Silvagni is hard to deal with.
He doesn't let many people into his life and doesn't particularly care for accumulating friends. His prerogative and more-so his nature.
He's an icon of the club and knows he can get away with things others may not be able to and then there's his standing amongst the high-end friends he does have at the club (MLG)

Silvagni will go but for this to be a favourable outcome MLG should go also. He really should and maybe even Judd with him.
MLG had tied himself to Bolton but cut the ties last minute. He's tied himself to SOS and even offered him another job apparently.....To his mate.

Call it an agenda if you want but if the boys club was to be dismantled MLG would be a key ticket to tear up and then we'd have a genuine fresh start.
The way I see it, I think it's quite possible this may come but it's going to take a lot of work prising MLG out of the chair he loves.
Pretty much summed up.

He clashed with Bolts earlier in the year as well due to Bolts playing Polson ahead of Jack and likely well before that.
From what I heard SOS wasn't that well liked.

For the record we needed him as he undoubtedly has the best interests of the club and we were desperate for someone we could trust.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

agro

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Cripps, Setterfield, Walsh, Murphy, Curnow, Stocker, Dow, Fisher, SPS, Kennedy, Gibbons, Cuningham...

I mean, we've got plenty of mids, just that lots of them are stil developing. Robertson doesn't help that.

I'm also not sure why you're so sure he's the "percentage pick" - is it just that the draft coverage had him going higher? Some had him top 10, but that was on the basis that Freo would take him as a local prospect. Outside that he was expected to go in the later teens, so we haven't gone and passed on an "elite" slider.

Philp is clearly a very hard worker, has a great athletic profile, improved throughout the year, and featured in the Knights' bests in 24 consecutive games. He averaged 22 disposals, 6 tackles and 6 clearances a game - it's not like he's a raw, rangey tall - he had a strong season and addresses an obvious need.

How did Robertson interview?

Take Cripps out of that list and how many games do we win in 2020.

Take Dustin Martin out of Richmond’s midfield and how many games do they win in 2020.
 

Nori

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Apart from the leaks to the press, which could have come from anywhere, this is great.

SOS has strong views on the independence of the list management process and if he sees an issue then why not convey it to the board and what they do with it after that is up to them.

Interestingly when SOS left GWS there was also speculation that he was unhappy about interference, so I’d imagine this is fairly common problem within football clubs.
 

agro

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Geelong just lost Tim Kelly and went for De Koning over Robertson..is Wells naive and pigheaded too?

They’ve got plenty of quality miss and a few developing good ones like Constable - they identified a need for a quality tall as more important.

I hope we tie up Tom long term, because the De Koning family looked mighty happy when Sam was drafted.
 

Stamos

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Clubs that are already overloaded with midfielders- like Richmond were interested in Philp.

Clubs like us who are not overloaded with midfielders (and will struggle when or if our premier midfielder Cripps gets injured) - should have gone and would have gone for the percentage pick in Robertson, not Philp.

I wish Philp all the best - and hope he becomes the player he needs to be for us.
What nonsense.
Philp is an inside mid. Dow is an inside mid.
Aside from all the clubs before us who didn't pick Robertson, Port traded down twice rather than pick him.
 

Blue__Balls

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This is the first year to me that we actually used the rookie draft for players with upside rather than recycled spuds. So are you saying that SOS didn't get his way this year?
It's possible this is the year SOS would have chosen to change tack with the late pick strategy anyway, so it's hard to say. The list is at that point now, where recycled mature-agers serve less of a purpose, given we have a greater pool of "ready" players to select from.

I think it's crystal clear that Teague has had significant input into what attributes he wanted the recruiters to target. Unlikely he took them a list of names 3 months ago, because he wouldn't have known the players, but he may have highlighted a few names after sitting in on interviews. Still, I doubt he would have been saying "SOS, I don't care what you have to give up, you need to draft Player X". Much more likely it was a collaborative effort to put together a shortlist of players, who could then be grouped by where we expected them to go in the draft (eg. Stephens, Young, Serong > Kemp > Philp, Dow > Ramsay, Honey > Phillips - with whatever other names might have been in the mix).
 

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