Opinion Stephen Silvagni

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After it was made perfectly clear to him that he was behind Warnock and Kreuzer in the pecking list.
How was that made clear? He played just as much as they did in his final year with us. It was made perfectly cleary to Warnock, Hampson and Jacobs they had to fight for that second ruck spot behind Kreuzer.
 

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koutamarto

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Obviously they are list spots so have cost us opportunities of finding other players, ever how small that is. Mostly though hey have cost us multi millions in salary cap room and maybe paying one player like Rockliff overs would’ve been a better bet. We actually could’ve over paid a couple with that.
Salary cap you HAVE to pay a certain % of. A salary cap i believe has plenty of space (how else to we pursue guys like shiel) so thats another piss poor argument!
 
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Salary cap you HAVE to pay a certain % of. A salary cap i believe has plenty of space (how else to we pursue guys like shiel) so thats another piss poor argument!
So you are saying you disagree with the argument? Sounds far less hostile when you say it like that, doesn't it?
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Salary cap you HAVE to pay a certain % of. A salary cap i believe has plenty of space (how else to we pursue guys like shiel) so thats another piss poor argument!
We wasted millions on duds why not pay good players overs. Like Rockliff for example. You don’t HAVE to spend it on players who don’t improve your side you can spend that money in much better ways than we have.
 

BIGGUS 64

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That which has crueled us has more to do with our rehab and injury department than our recruiting. Had Kreuzer stayed on the park for the majority of the last two years instead of playing under a quarter of those games, how many more games would we have won? Would Marchbank have become the player he shows sometimes if he had anything resembling continuity? Pickett, if he stopped getting injured just as he enters into decent physical shape?

On one hand, you could try to argue that SOS has thrown the dice a bit when it comes to trades, bringing in players who have been injured. On the other, how else are we meant to get in quality?

Having said all of that, I dislike the bolded. It smacks of a victim mentality, and renders you defeated before you even began to try.
Well exactly. It's a tough game. If we only considered recruiting players with no injury record to speak of, we'd be drastically reducing the number of options out there for us.
We can only hope that in the years ahead, an improved fitness and conditioning department will see us having fewer players getting re-injured and more players going on with their careers.
 

Gethelred

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Well exactly. It's a tough game. If we only considered recruiting players with no injury record to speak of, we'd be drastically reducing the number of options out there for us.
We can only hope that in the years ahead, an improved fitness and conditioning department will see us having fewer players getting re-injured and more players going on with their careers.
More, that he's taken Hawthornesque gambles on injured players, and to this point - unlike Hawthorn - they haven't paid off yet. Otherwise, Pickett would've gotten a run at it, Marchbank would've spent significantly more time on the park, SPS wouldn't have only just had his first preseason this year, etc.

This, hopefully, will change quite a bit, as more external voices come into the club - through Russell, through Lloyd - and we ensure that our medical/rehab departments approach best practice.
 

WFGodot

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That which has crueled us has more to do with our rehab and injury department than our recruiting. Had Kreuzer stayed on the park for the majority of the last two years instead of playing under a quarter of those games, how many more games would we have won? Would Marchbank have become the player he shows sometimes if he had anything resembling continuity? Pickett, if he stopped getting injured just as he enters into decent physical shape?

On one hand, you could try to argue that SOS has thrown the dice a bit when it comes to trades, bringing in players who have been injured. On the other, how else are we meant to get in quality?

Having said all of that, I dislike the bolded. It smacks of a victim mentality, and renders you defeated before you even began to try.
I respectfully disagree. Carlton’s best 22 has serious upside but in order to develop it has taken 4 years and leaves us severely depleted of quality experienced players. To compete you really need 30+ good players. My comment about the system illustrates that it takes more than just good management to get a competitive list. It is extremely hard to get enough good players through the door quickly to develop a cohesive list with depth.
All teams get injuries, part of getting Russell in was meant to improve the way we go about our preseason and start healthy. Despite this, Kreuzer missed the start because of his knee issues. Pickett showed up fat. Docherty walked under a ladder holding a black cat! Mismanagement? Nah, just bad luck and poor discipline. Teams with depth cover them, those that can’t are brutally exposed. As such without more picks, capacity to trade, luck with injury etc the current system will continue to favour the current strong teams.
No victim mentality just harsh reality.
 

Gethelred

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I respectfully disagree. Carlton’s best 22 has serious upside but in order to develop it has taken 4 years and leaves us severely depleted of quality experienced players. To compete you really need 30+ good players. My comment about the system illustrates that it takes more than just good management to get a competitive list. It is extremely hard to get enough good players through the door quickly to develop a cohesive list with depth.
All teams get injuries, part of getting Russell in was meant to improve the way we go about our preseason and start healthy. Despite this, Kreuzer missed the start because of his knee issues. Pickett showed up fat. Docherty walked under a ladder holding a black cat! Mismanagement? Nah, just bad luck and poor discipline. Teams with depth cover them, those that can’t are brutally exposed. As such without more picks, capacity to trade, luck with injury etc the current system will continue to favour the current strong teams.
No victim mentality just harsh reality.
You are solely talking about this year, I'm referring to the last 3. Injuries to key personnel coupled with poor rehab - and/or coaches overruling medical on gameday, leading to repeat and compounding injuries by sending players back out when they shouldn't, as has supposedly happened multiple times over the past few years - has lead to players having prolonged time on the sidelines, unable to develop form or to build confidence, and lacking cohesion on the field. There was a statistic about our back six last season, along the lines of no player played more than 3 games with any of the others in there.

Getting in outsiders leads to new and different points of view, which allows us to evaluate our systems with a mind to league best practice. Lloyd and Russell possess value in that they have come over recently, have not been a part of our system for years, and are considered by others in the industry as very good at what they do; their contributions will take time to be truly felt, it will not happen over night.

And finally, lamenting the AFL's structural inequity ignores the sheer amount of **** we did to ourselves to place us in the whole in which we find ourselves. It ignores how Melbourne ****** up their first rebuild, it ignores how Richmond drafted and recruited their way to competence whilst the best players were being drafted in bulk by GWS and GC and traded into Hawthorn, Collingwood and Geelong. To say that there are structural issues at play which make it difficult to rebuild is not untrue, but that is definitively not the attitude I'd like us to take, as it is very much a victim's mentality.

We are responsible for our own fate, not the AFL. Even if we weren't, and the AFL played an active role in conspiring to keep us at the bottom of the ladder, then **** them and work your arse off to get out.
 
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Interesting to see what happens with JSOS. His contract is up. Going to cause a lot of friction if he is cut.

After it was made perfectly clear to him that he was behind Warnock and Kreuzer in the pecking list.
Where was it made perfectly clear?

Saw nothing of the sort at the time.
 

Styxx

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How much did these guys cost us? What other options were available instead, who was picked with the picks after the one we used etc?
How about instead of trotting out the same shot the c grade journo hacks are, how about you provide some context and analysis? Or maybe you don’t know/understand yourself!

Nice deflection in defending none of the names listed.

Money? None, but its not about that. If they are recycled from other clubs they were bought in to be experience, mature heads who are supposed to contribute in protecting and helping fast track the youth or in some cases be able to establish themselves as viable options.

None have done any of what they were recruited for. So as far as development goes they took away from the list, they contributed nothing in some cases.
 

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FairKouta

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Can someone point me to a list manager that got everything right ?
Hawthorn bought in Orouke vickery .
SOS got our first picks right minus obrien got willo.
He cud have chose Francis ahead of MCKAY Charlie or even parish ewww. Even weidaman
All this BS about shuda got better mature players.
We tried no one wanted to come.
We had no good senior players.
Do you blame SOS for trading our first rounder this year. He thought we would improve we all did.
What was he supposed to think we were still gonna be ****house this year.
Personally we have our young spine.
We are set now we trade throw money at the supporting cast. Hindsight people.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Can someone point me to a list manager that got everything right ?
Hawthorn bought in Orouke vickery .
SOS got our first picks right minus obrien got willo.
He cud have chose Francis ahead of MCKAY Charlie or even parish ewww. Even weidaman
All this BS about shuda got better mature players.
We tried no one wanted to come.
We had no good senior players.
Do you blame SOS for trading our first rounder this year. He thought we would improve we all did.
What was he supposed to think we were still gonna be ****house this year.
Personally we have our young spine.
We are set now we trade throw money at the supporting cast. Hindsight people.
See I’m critical of him because he hasn’t been able to bring in any decent mature players to help but I also realise he was probably one or two good mature players away from looking fantastic. It’s a fine line. Geelong have 10 years of drafting where they haven’t got a best 22 first round pick playing for them. Taylor in 2007 was the last. Every club makes mistakes. I always remember Fyfe in his draft season. An absolute Hughes special, everything he ever looked for in a player and he went Lucas :(.
We clearly have to do better outside of the first round though otherwise we will never have success.
 

FairKouta

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See I’m critical of him because he hasn’t been able to bring in any decent mature players to help but I also realise he was probably one or two good mature players away from looking fantastic. It’s a fine line. Geelong have 10 years of drafting where they haven’t got a best 22 first round pick playing for them. Taylor in 2007 was the last. Every club makes mistakes. I always remember Fyfe in his draft season. An absolute Hughes special, everything he ever looked for in a player and he went Lucas :(.
We clearly have to do better outside of the first round though otherwise we will never have success.
But remember it's the same geelong that paid 16 for Lang 10 for cockatoo and 15 for Smedts. They were lucky to get all those father sons. A huge amount of luck. They have elite senior players but sadly once they slow down or retire geelong will be expose all these after 30 picks and new free agents will make them competitive but not in contention. Premierships are won by an elite core. Hawthorns elite core was secured by early draft picks and it took them until 2008 to get a premiership. The good thing is SOS and his team will now be under pressure to perform adding urgency. But i don't think we would of had the talent in the door if we had any other list manager. The same media will rave about how SOS masterminded our dynasty(lol)
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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But remember it's the same geelong that paid 16 for Lang 10 for cockatoo and 15 for Smedts. They were lucky to get all those father sons. A huge amount of luck. They have elite senior players but sadly once they slow down or retire geelong will be expose all these after 30 picks and new free agents will make them competitive but not in contention. Premierships are won by an elite core. Hawthorns elite core was secured by early draft picks and it took them until 2008 to get a premiership. The good thing is SOS and his team will now be under pressure to perform adding urgency. But i don't think we would of had the talent in the door if we had any other list manager. The same media will rave about how SOS masterminded our dynasty(lol)
Geelong have missed nearly every year in the first round of the draft that’s what I was saying. This current list they have has nothing to do with luck though, Hawkins is about the only FS they have. They’ve built about three quarters of this team in the last four years.
 

FairKouta

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Geelong have missed nearly every year in the first round of the draft that’s what I was saying. This current list they have has nothing to do with luck though, Hawkins is about the only FS they have. They’ve built about three quarters of this team in the last four years.
I meant in their premiership ear ablett scarlett hawkins nathan ablett. They haven't won a premiership since the core retired. They haven't been a real threat since then. They look good this year but GWS dismantled them. And finals football is a different beast those after 30 picks and kids will be found out. So all i am saying is i'm gonna endure the pain right now but after a year or two these kids will be good. And all we need is one good season to attract the free agency players and these kids to sign on. So i am happy SOS went all out in getting guns in the door and gambled on the older blokes. This year he can afford to pay for good mature players. tbh we will find out this year about SOS if he manages to get some good senior bodies in the door by paying good value for them.
 

Blue1980

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I meant in their premiership ear ablett scarlett hawkins nathan ablett. They haven't won a premiership since the core retired. They haven't been a real threat since then. They look good this year but GWS dismantled them. And finals football is a different beast those after 30 picks and kids will be found out. So all i am saying is i'm gonna endure the pain right now but after a year or two these kids will be good. And all we need is one good season to attract the free agency players and these kids to sign on. So i am happy SOS went all out in getting guns in the door and gambled on the older blokes. This year he can afford to pay for good mature players. tbh we will find out this year about SOS if he manages to get some good senior bodies in the door by paying good value for them.
GWS best the Cats by 4 points.

They have kept themselves in the mix without getting the ultimate prize, and have found good quality players through other means than just the first round of the draft.

If the 2nd half of the year goes anywhere near similar to the first half of the year for us, I can’t see what decent senior players we can get.
 

FairKouta

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GWS best the Cats by 4 points.

They have kept themselves in the mix without getting the ultimate prize, and have found good quality players through other means than just the first round of the draft.

If the 2nd half of the year goes anywhere near similar to the first half of the year for us, I can’t see what decent senior players we can get.
Unfortunately you are right don't think anyone would like to come to us unless we show something in the second half. Geelong were a very good team in the late 2010s. They have just been the mix since then not a real contender. They are looking ominous this year but I don't think they hold up in finals. All premiership teams have an elite core of first round pics.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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GWS best the Cats by 4 points.

They have kept themselves in the mix without getting the ultimate prize, and have found good quality players through other means than just the first round of the draft.

If the 2nd half of the year goes anywhere near similar to the first half of the year for us, I can’t see what decent senior players we can get.
This is why we should be chasing players like Phillips, Langdon, Papley ect. They are young enough to maybe still be swayed by a Rebuilding side yet they are fully established players. Maybe someone like Ellis, who I’m not huge on, could be swayed when he has already won a flag. Greenwood has been dropped so there is maybe a good chance there.
Older A graders though aren’t going to come.
 

Nori

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When you get a guys like Setterfield butchering the ball you know there’s more at play than just talent.

I don’t have an issue with SOS’s drafting or his targeted trades, but I do think the mature bodies he tried to get in on the cheap for support have been a massive fail.

Having said that how many players let go by clubs or traded for nothing actually turn out to be best 22 for multiple years. Sometimes they can cobble together a season, but it’s not often they go on to become regular fixtures.

I understand that SOS didn’t want to waste precious draft picks on support acts, but with the benefit of hindsight I’m sure he could have uncovered some gems in the state leagues if they’d looked hard enough. I know it wasn’t really a thing before Kelly burst onto the scene but that’s probably the only area where I think he missed a big opportunity.
 

Blue1980

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This is why we should be chasing players like Phillips, Langdon, Papley ect. They are young enough to maybe still be swayed by a Rebuilding side yet they are fully established players. Maybe someone like Ellis, who I’m not huge on, could be swayed when he has already won a flag. Greenwood has been dropped so there is maybe a good chance there.
Older A graders though aren’t going to come.
Exactly right with your choice of targets
 

Bostonian

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This is why we should be chasing players like Phillips, Langdon, Papley ect. They are young enough to maybe still be swayed by a Rebuilding side yet they are fully established players. Maybe someone like Ellis, who I’m not huge on, could be swayed when he has already won a flag. Greenwood has been dropped so there is maybe a good chance there.
Older A graders though aren’t going to come.
Tom Phillips is A grade already.
 

dumb

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Three years worth below. You be the judge.

2016 retirements & delistings

Andrew Walker (retired)
Michael Jamison (retired)
Cameron Wood (retired)
Matthew Dick (delisted)
Jayden Foster (delisted)
Clem Smith (delisted)
Zach Tuohy (Traded Geelong)
Andrejs Everitt (delisted)
Billy Gowers (delisted)
Andrew Galluci (delisted)
Mark Whiley (delisted)
Jason Tutt (delisted)



2015 retirements & delistings

Chris Judd (retired)
Andrew Carrazzo (retired)
David Ellard (retired)
Matthew Watson (delisted)
Cameron Giles (delisted)
Blaine Johnson (delisted)
Fraser Russell (delisted)
Lachie Henderson (Geelong)
Tom Bell (Brisbane)
Troy Menzel (Adelaide)
Chris Yarran (Richmond)
Robbie Warnock (delisted)
Nick Holman (delisted)
Tom Fields (delisted)
Brad Walsh (delisted)

2014
Nick Duigan (retired)
Heath Scotland (retired)
Josh Bootsma
Kane Lucas
Andrew McInnes
Brock McLean
Mitch Robinson
Tom Temay
Jaryd Cachia
Luke Reynolds
long sad list.
everitt had it in him - i still remember his bag of 4 that helped beat geelong after lachie went across - but a few other times disinterested.
mcinnes was building but maybe not the same after his knee.
 

AB_Blue

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If sos finishes up at the club it won’t be until after this trade/draft period

He has been at the helm for about 5 seasons now and has set us up nicely

Tuned players wanting out into high draft picks which should get us 10-12 year players

No list manager gets everything right


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