Play Nice Still no evidence against Melbourne re: tanking

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Now for a view from another code- Soccer ( which I have copied courtesy of Sports Betting .net)

Perhaps the game that has had most match-fixing incidents iis soccer. One of the most sensational scandals occurred in the UK in the 1910s, when a First League Division match between Manchester United and Liverpool was fixed in favor of the former team while the benefits went to both teams. Seven players were involved in the scandal and all of them were later banned for life.
A similar betting scandal was unearthed in the 1960s. It involved a betting ring formed by a number of Football League players who continually fixed matches. When uncovered, many of the players were banned for life and some of them imprisoned.
In 2004, over thirty people in South Africa were arrested on charges of match-fixing by the South African Football Association. The thirty people included club officials, referees, an official of the association and a match commissioner.
One of the recent incidents that shook football in Germany was the Bundesliga Scandal in 2005, when prosecutors, along with help from the German Football Association, made an inquiry into allegations that Robert Hoyzer, a referee, was involved in fixing several matches that he had worked on. It was also reported that he was involved with gambling syndicates in Croatia. He later confessed his guilt and named several other referees and players involved in match fixing. He, along with the others were arrested and served over two years in prison along with a life ban from the association.
That same year, another scandal was to rock Brazilian football, when two referees, one of them being a member of FIFA’s referee staff, were charged with accepting bribes and having fixed several games in the Campeonato Brasileiro, the country’s top football tournament. Once the allegations were confirmed, the games were replayed and both the referees were banned from football for life.
In 2006, the Italian Police uncovered what was supposed to be the largest match fixing scandal in Italian Serie A football. Here, major football teams Lazio, Fiorentina, AC Milan and Juventus were charged with rigging matches and selecting their favorite referees. Juventus, which had won the previous two Serie A titles, were stripped of them and with the exception of Milan, all four teams were relegated to Series B.
Many a match-fixing incident has been uncovered over the years and most of them have been dealt with severely. Every country has its own rules to restrict match fixing and provide strict penalties for those indulging in such practices. Regardless of these laws, sportspersons have been lured time and again into match-fixing scandal.

Note the highlighted portions. If found guilty, the ramifications for Melbourne could be massive.
 

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The Goon

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Now for a view from another code- Soccer ( which I have copied courtesy of Sports Betting .net)

/snip

Note the highlighted portions. If found guilty, the ramifications for Melbourne could be massive.
There's no way the Dees will be found guilty of match fixing, which is what your quote is all about. What is missing from your examples is the intent to do this for financial gain and the intent to fix the outcome of specific games. Even with the worst interpretation of their actions the AFL would not want them found guilty of fixing a match to benefit from an incentive that the AFL put in place.
 
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There's no way the Dees will be found guilty of match fixing, which is what your quote is all about. What is missing from your examples is the intent to do this for financial gain and the intent to fix the outcome of specific games. Even with the worst interpretation of their actions the AFL would not want them found guilty of fixing a match to benefit from an incentive that the AFL put in place.
Look at the penalties in the 2006 Italian findings when teams were dumped from the Italian serie A ( as well as individual penalties being given out) because of team's attempts to fix matches.

The AFL might not like the conclusion, and probably won't want to make that conclusion but if the allegations are proven, they come so close to match fixing that finding any difference would be impossible, especially if the Richmond game is found to be more than bad coaching.....
 

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professional sports and corruption. it's like poms and tea. aussies and the beach. it just happens. it's a fact of life.

lmao so i guess people in here are actually using the term "bad coaching", wow some people have their heads buried in the sand.
 

The Goon

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Look at the penalties in the 2006 Italian findings when teams were dumped from the Italian serie A ( as well as individual penalties being given out) because of team's attempts to fix matches.

The AFL might not like the conclusion, and probably won't want to make that conclusion but if the allegations are proven, they come so close to match fixing that finding any difference would be impossible, especially if the Richmond game is found to be more than bad coaching.....
We'll have to disagree on that Royals. If they are found guilty it will not be for actions relating to a specific match (unless there is unreported testimony specifically relating to the Richmond match) but overall intent to rort the system. Match fixing therefore falls out of the equation because by it's nature match fixing refers to a specific single match, not an overall intent to 'unfairly' exploit the AFL's draft system.

Don't get me wrong, I think the MFC will likely have the AFL come down on them like a ton of bricks. Just not for match fixing.
 
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Melbourne havent done anything corrupt. Lets get serious here. They have tried to maximise the benefit of a rule designed to give benefit to teams who lose.

Its not match fixing in the true sense of the word. Match fixing involves people making illegal money on the side from betting. Theres none of that. Nobody at Melbourne is going to go to jail.

(edit....maybe Liam Jurrah...but thats another story)
 
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Melbourne havent done anything corrupt. Lets get serious here. They have tried to maximise the benefit of a rule designed to give benefit to teams who lose.

Its not match fixing in the true sense of the word. Match fixing involves people making illegal money on the side from betting. Theres none of that. Nobody at Melbourne is going to go to jail.

(edit....maybe Liam Jurrah...but thats another story)
Seriously, Timmy, you're a pretty sensible poster but this:

"Melbourne havent done anything corrupt"

If the most serious case is not found against them but say a charge of "game into disrepute" is you're right. But if the AFL make the more adverse finding against them, it is corruption because the team is conspiring to get extra picks on the side for losing instead of money.

As for this line:

"They have tried to maximise the benefit of a rule designed to give benefit to teams who lose."

Try telling this to the taxman when he busts an illegal tax scheme and inserts numerous blunt objects up people. See Glenn Wheatley for example.
 

Forward Press

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I don't think using the soccer match-fixing examples is appropriate. Melbourne weren't deriving any financial benefit from 'tanking'.

However, this won't stop the AFL from making an example out of Melbourne if they decide to do so, especially if the betting agencies start to weigh in on this.
 
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I don't think using the soccer match-fixing examples is appropriate. Melbourne weren't deriving any financial benefit from 'tanking'.

However, this won't stop the AFL from making an example out of Melbourne if they decide to do so, especially if the betting agencies start to weigh in on this.
But Melbourne were getting a benefit, a first round draft pick, that would have financial ramifications for the club if they worked out.

But for the AFL to go to match fixing charges, Melbourne would have to piss them off severely.
 

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Forward Press

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That's a bit of a stretch in my view, in that it would not be immediate and would be very difficult to quantify.

Where I think other clubs should get pissed about is that 'tanking' may have given Melbourne access to a top young player that they otherwise would not be entitled to - and the consequent demotion of all other clubs in the draft by one spot.

However, I have not seen anything that convinces me Melbourne should receive more severe sanctions (if found guilty) than the loss of some (not all) draft picks for a couple of a years and a moderate fine.
 

Bluelegs

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Look at the penalties in the 2006 Italian findings when teams were dumped from the Italian serie A ( as well as individual penalties being given out) because of team's attempts to fix matches.

The AFL might not like the conclusion, and probably won't want to make that conclusion but if the allegations are proven, they come so close to match fixing that finding any difference would be impossible, especially if the Richmond game is found to be more than bad coaching.....

These comparisons don't exactly hold up when the AFL has shown in the past that they would rather bury their head in the sand then actually confront tanking, they clearly didn't think it to be as big of an issue as those other examples to the point where they would handle it on the same level as those other examples. If the AFL had been that disgusted with tanking when the original suspicions were going on then Melbourne never would have had the opportunity to tank because they would have eliminated it from the game, even if they hadn't have punished anyone they would have at least removed the incentive, something that took them a very long time to do. Hell, Demetriou and Anderson defended Melbourne when the original tanking allegations were thrown and were quite vitriolic to those making the claims. I also don't think the AFL views the alleged tanking as being the same as the examples of match-fixing you've provided. Playing players out of position is not as bad as a boxer being instructed to fall over in the third round.

I'm not saying any of that will save Melbourne, but what I am saying is that the AFL won't punish Melbourne to the extent that you suggest, we will lose draft picks, we will get a fine, we will be publicly humiliated, that will be it.
 

bing181

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... but if the allegations are proven, they come so close to match fixing that finding any difference would be impossible
Only for you it seems.

Either you don't understand what match fixing entails, or you don't understand the allegations re MFC in 2009. Or both.

Ridiculous.
 
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Only for you it seems.

Either you don't understand what match fixing entails, or you don't understand the allegations re MFC in 2009. Or both.

Ridiculous.
I understand both but look at the facts the same way. From what I understand( and I could be wrong), the priority pick is a rule that had no precedent in the NFL, NBA or the MLB. Sure the worst team got the best pick in the NBA( before the lottery) but they did not get an extra pick., it was only a question of the order of the pick not the amount of picks you would receive.

It is that extra pick that confers the benefit. Put another way, if the Demons did not get the Scully priority pick, the order would have been presumably(we're assuming they would have chosen Scully over Trengove):

1. Scully- Melbourne
2. Martin or Trengove - Richmond
3. Either of Martin and Trengove or Morabito - Fremantle
Etc

Presuming Scully left to GWS anyway, Melbourne would have got their compo picks but they would not have Trengove, their captain so fixing the match ( ie being determined to lose the match hell or highwater) did confer a benefit to MFC, Trengove.

The concept of the priority pick was in part the evil. Why any competition would introduce an added incentive to come last has me stumped. But because the system gave rise to this possibility should not absolve Melbourne from any guilt, if they are found to have tanked.
 

jonbe54

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Love the attempted justifications by some Dees supporters.

ALL clubs will attempt to maximize the drafting possibilities in a failed season, the Dees got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and crumbs all down the front of their jumper.

The biggest sin of the Dees is getting caught - FFS who in their right mind would draft a record and not ensure that it was destroyed before it found its way into public hands?

That's just kindergarten stuff.
 

jonbe54

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You know Alice is reported to have clicked her heels together to get back home from OZ, perhaps that will work.

Otherwise I would recommend sticking your fingers in your ears and humming really loud to make the nasty world go away :rolleyes:
 

jonbe54

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quote little hawk I dont understand Jonbe54

Sorry I can't get the quote button up on my browser at the moment.

Was replying to Higgs Bonson's last post and suggesting that he is living in fantasy land.
 
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