Play Nice Still no evidence against Melbourne re: tanking

Forward Press

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No we're not, but specifically the allegation (and I am going on Caro's report so to avoid sounding hypocritical I am taking it with a grain of salt) is that the interview tapes were turned off while threats were made regarding being thrown out of the industry and the like, if they did not confess.

IF the allegations are true, it is damning. You've conceded that previously FP.
None of us know whether tapes were turned off - much less the motives behind it. It's all speculation, which is why I suppose this topic is going around in circles for 67 pages.

I don't deny that if there is intimidation from the investigators, it will compromise the integrity of the investigation. I think a couple of other non-Melbourne fans have acknowledged that fact in this very topic.

And again for possibly the millionth time, the AFL have dictatorial powers in this matter. They may very well overlook any coercion or unfulfilled promises from the investigators and believe there is sufficient credible evidence anyway to punish the club and/or the individuals involved, after giving Melbourne a chance to respond.
 

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Sprout

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None of us know whether tapes were turned off - much less the motives behind it. It's all speculation, which is why I suppose this topic is going around in circles for 67 pages.

I don't deny that if there is intimidation from the investigators, it will compromise the integrity of the investigation. I think a couple of other non-Melbourne fans have acknowledged that fact in this very topic.

And again for possibly the millionth time, the AFL have dictatorial powers in this matter. They may very well overlook any coercion or unfulfilled promises from the investigators and believe there is sufficient credible evidence anyway to punish the club and/or the individuals involved, after giving Melbourne a chance to respond.
Key words being "sufficient" and "credible".
 

Sprout

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It's not up to a court of law to determine that.

If the AFL thinks that the testimony of a couple of ex-players and staff is 'sufficient' and 'credible', they may dole out punishment.
I get what you're saying, but at the heart of the matter is what do the AFL stand to gain or lose from punishing the club, particularly if it is on the basis of the testimony of a couple of ex-players or staff (pending on which staff).

The focus from the vultures is that the AFL must be seen to act to protect the integrity of the competition, almost regardless of the weight of evidence. This fails to take into account the ramifications for the AFL of admitting that tanking took place i.e. flow-on effects with betting agencies, investigations into other clubs, the fact that the integrity of the competition has been allowed to be compromised for so long etc.

If the question is, do the AFL really want to find something incriminating in this matter? I would think the answer is resolutely no, they don't. But they are undertaking a thorough investigation because that in itself is protecting the integrity of the game.

In light of this, I would think the for the AFL to act, they would want to be in a position where they have no choice but to act. That is, they have irrefutable evidence that Melbourne tanked.
 

Forward Press

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I get what you're saying, but at the heart of the matter is what do the AFL stand to gain or lose from punishing the club, particularly if it is on the basis of the testimony of a couple of ex-players or staff (pending on which staff).
Well it goes without saying that the testimony of an ex-coach and an ex-senior player holds far more weight than two low level grunts in the finance department.

However, with reference to your post, the AFL stands to send a strong message out to the rest of the competition - if you tank, expect severe punishments. I imagine they will do the same with Adelaide and Trigg and co in the Tippett saga with regards to salary cap rorting and draft tampering. Personally (and I know a fair few share this sentiment), tanking is a very serious allegation and I think the AFL may also hold the same view on that.

If the question is, do the AFL really want to find something incriminating in this matter? I would think the answer is resolutely no, they don't. But they are undertaking a thorough investigation because that in itself is protecting the integrity of the game.
You can easily make an argument that the integrity of the competition (whatever that means) can only be protected by coming down hard on tankers. I believe that Carlton copped a massive punishment because of the integrity aspect as well. And perhaps there is a scenario where Demetriou admits he got it wrong and asks the AFL Commission to sink the boot into Melbourne? This would then overrule your predicted scenario that the AFL does not really want to find something incriminating in this investigation that would confirm the existence of tanking.

As the old saying goes, don't ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to. Are you saying this investigation is nothing more than a facade?
 

Sprout

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Personally (and I know a fair few share this sentiment), tanking is a very serious allegation and I think the AFL may also hold the same view on that.
I think the outstanding majority hold that view. Myself and most Melbourne supporters included.

You can easily make an argument that the integrity of the competition (whatever that means) can only be protected by coming down hard on tankers. I believe that Carlton copped a massive punishment because of the integrity aspect as well. And perhaps there is a scenario where Demetriou admits he got it wrong and asks the AFL Commission to sink the boot into Melbourne? This would then overrule your predicted scenario that the AFL does not really want to find something incriminating in this investigation that would confirm the existence of tanking.
Salary cap cheating is a flimsy comparison. That is comparatively quite simple to prove. Proving a club tanked is a far more complex affair.

The only scenario I am predicting is that Vald will only admit he was wrong and act accordingly if there is irrefutable evidence in the form of paper trail, directions to players, and/or admissions from coaching staff on specific plans to lose football matches. At this stage we are all speculating on what evidence is in existence so I won't add to that speculation. If he acts without this evidence as a basis, then yeah my scenario will have been overruled..(?)

As the old saying goes, don't ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to. Are you saying this investigation is nothing more than a facade?
That is not what I am suggesting at all as it infers that the AFL has no intention of acting upon any evidence which is uncovered. I am suggesting a thorough investigation was a necessary step or the AFL. If the investigators uncover sufficient evidence that proves Melbourne tanked, the AFL's hand will of course be forced.
 
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They're coming from the same sources that people like you are claiming as proof of tanking.
When asked where the allegations of intimidation are coming from, Theo X said the same people as those being claiming proof of tanking so is he saying:

1. The source is correct about the allegations of tanking but also correct that there are allegations of intimidation; or
2. The source is incorrect about the allegations of tanking but also incorrect as to the allegations of intimidation; or
3. The source is correct about the allegations of tanking but incorrect as to the allegations of intimidation; or
4. The source is incorrect about the allegations of tanking but correct about the allegations of intimidation.

Let me guess- 4:)
 

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ziad

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Melbourne never had a former player die from a drug habit picked up at the club you douche:thumbsu:

lets look back and see how many other west coast players escaped drug offences and there are quite a few :oops:
gardner & edwards both sent to vic, others sacked by the club

but they are individuals

we are discussing systematic corruption organised by a club from the very top levels
 

Theo X

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When asked where the allegations of intimidation are coming from, Theo X said the same people as those being claiming proof of tanking so is he saying:

1. The source is correct about the allegations of tanking but also correct that there are allegations of intimidation; or
2. The source is incorrect about the allegations of tanking but also incorrect as to the allegations of intimidation; or
3. The source is correct about the allegations of tanking but incorrect as to the allegations of intimidation; or
4. The source is incorrect about the allegations of tanking but correct about the allegations of intimidation.

Let me guess- 4:)
You must be pretty bored, replying to that post twice, did you spend the whole day thinking of another reply and working out those combinations? You mental giant you.
 

Theo X

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Careful what you wish for.
Carlton will be the next team investigated for their blatant tanking in 2007.
It's unbelievable that they haven't started an investigation into them already
gardner & edwards both sent to vic, others sacked by the club

but they are individuals

we are discussing systematic corruption organised by a club from the very top levels
You have zero proof of this, but don't let that stop your hatred of Melbourne.
 

coryne

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It's unbelievable that they haven't started an investigation into them already

You have zero proof of this, but don't let that stop your hatred of Melbourne.


Melbourne. Stupid enough to blatantly cheat in games and made said cheating a focus during team meetings and and to sponsors


Carlton. May have performed poorly in games they could have won but no-one has said it was ever a directive with-in the club. Libba and Fevola said there was a "vibe" that it would be better for the club to loose than win, but it was never made a directive within the club.




Sure other clubs probably have tanked over the years, but no-one else has been anywhere near as incompetent in the way it as done as Melbourne were. Players being played MASSIVELY out of position or being benched/banished to a pocket when showing good form, staff members being threatened with being sacked if they won games, the issue being brought up during team meetings and bragging about it to sponsors is just plain stupidity and it is the stupidity which will be punished as much as the acts themselves.



Oh and I have no sympathy considering the incompetence which is still being shown at the club, highlighted by the recent trade period where it is clear deals were done with the GWS to prevent nominations for Viney too .............
 

ziad

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It's unbelievable that they haven't started an investigation into them already

You have zero proof of this, but don't let that stop your hatred of Melbourne.
gardener was sacked and ended up with the saints, edwards was traded to North. Chick sacked.

what more proof do you want?

AFL are doing a clean out job on dodgy practices as is evident bu 'tightening' of third party rules etc. - melistan your time cometh

hate is a negative thing - I avoid it
 

Theo X

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Melbourne. Stupid enough to blatantly cheat in games and made said cheating a focus during team meetings and and to sponsors


Carlton. May have performed poorly in games they could have won but no-one has said it was ever a directive with-in the club. Libba and Fevola said there was a "vibe" that it would be better for the club to loose than win, but it was never made a directive within the club.




Sure other clubs probably have tanked over the years, but no-one else has been anywhere near as incompetent in the way it as done as Melbourne were. Players being played MASSIVELY out of position or being benched/banished to a pocket when showing good form, staff members being threatened with being sacked if they won games, the issue being brought up during team meetings and bragging about it to sponsors is just plain stupidity and it is the stupidity which will be punished as much as the acts themselves.



Oh and I have no sympathy considering the incompetence which is still being shown at the club, highlighted by the recent trade period where it is clear deals were done with the GWS to prevent nominations for Viney too .............
Again, you have zero evidence for any of those accusations, try again. Plus, this investigation was started by Brock McLean's vibe, and he's just as much a meathead as Fev is, so why the double standards?
 

Theo X

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gardener was sacked and ended up with the saints, edwards was traded to North. Chick sacked.

what more proof do you want?

AFL are doing a clean out job on dodgy practices as is evident bu 'tightening' of third party rules etc. - melistan your time cometh

hate is a negative thing - I avoid it
Huh? I said that in reference to "we are discussing systematic corruption organised by a club from the very top levels", should've made that clear. I couldn't care less what you did with all your drug addicts.
 

ziad

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Huh? I said that in reference to "we are discussing systematic corruption organised by a club from the very top levels", should've made that clear. I couldn't care less what you did with all your drug addicts.
you realy are that thick - subtle humour not your strong suit?
that is what we are discussing. You deny it happened, but that is what we are discussing and the AFL is happliy investigating
 

Theo X

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you realy are that thick - subtle humour not your strong suit?
that is what we are discussing. You deny it happened, but that is what we are discussing and the AFL is happliy investigating
Not sure what you're on about: i said you had no evidence of this top level corruption business, not that we're not discussing it. Any subtle humour you're using doesn't show up in text.
 

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Again, you have zero evidence for any of those accusations, try again. Plus, this investigation was started by Brock McLean's vibe, and he's just as much a meathead as Fev is, so why the double standards?
Perhaps if Fev hadn't said in 2007, when asked about tanking after the Carlton v Collingwood game that many have questioned, that no the club wasn't tanking, his vague reference to tanking in his book might carry some weight. Also it would probably look better for Melbourne if McLean was the only player who has given evidence to the AFL. We know this is not the case.
 
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