Play Nice Still no evidence against Melbourne re: tanking

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All I can recall at this stage is Brock McLean saying it happened.

Are you saying
a. Melbourne never tanked, or
b. there is no evidence to prove it.

Bear in mind AFL rules are if you are charged by the investigators the onus of proof will then be on the club to show on the balance of probabilities you didn't do it.
a. That would depend on the AFL's definition of tanking. I always thought that tanking was defined as deliberately losing. If that is correct, we definitely did not set out to do that.

b. None of us has any idea of exactly what evidence the league has or doesn't have. All the opposition supporters who have prosecuted us based on what they have seen or heard in the media look pretty foolish in my eyes.
 

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boffo

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Melbourne didn't tank. Tanking implies match-fixing, playing dead etc.. Players gave their all to win. But,on the other hand, the people upstairs did all they could to manipulate a loss.

Yep, I'd be confident the players didn't want to lose - that's what p....d off McLean - so I can't see any players being charged.

As for club officials, I hope they don't charge them either (as we have the excellent Dean Bailey with us now - self interest is a powerful motivator :) ).

Agree the AFL should drop the investigation, go the whole way and abolish priority picks altogether, maybe introduce a draft lottery of sorts, problem solved, move on.
 

Demonic Ascent

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But have you answered the question which I put up early. Stop deflecting......
Didn't realise you'd actually addressed any questions to me. I can't recall you having quoted or directed any queries at me whatsoever in this entire site let alone this thread.
 

Demonic Ascent

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It's pointless debating this issue with some Demons supporters. They will never accept they tanked. Even if the AFL kicks them into next week, they will refuse to accept they tanked arguing that other clubs did it or it was list management or that the AFL had the wrong definition of tanking.

It's just pointless because some Melbourne supporters will never accept, even in the face of objective evidence, they did a damn thing wrong.
Show us some evidence and then we'll discuss. Real evidence would be good, not speculative rubbish by hack journos. Your arguments are laughable, you talk about "objective evidence" when all you have is subjective news articles based on alleged quotes.
 
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Yet you also have no evidence about coercion or other matters.

The Melbournians in this thread have attacked the existence of the evidence released by the newspapers but then said those very same people who gave evidence were coerced based upon those same newspapers reports.

So Melbourne people:

Is it a case that:

(a) You believe the "facts" reported in the newspaper are not what the people said;
(b) You believe the "facts" reported in the newspaper are what people said but that evidence isn't credible because it was coerced.

in any event, where is your evidence for coercion.

Now wait for the stream of vitriol from Melbourne supporters to spew out like Versuvius.
This question Demonic Ascent....
 

Sprout

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Yet you also have no evidence about coercion or other matters.

The Melbournians in this thread have attacked the existence of the evidence released by the newspapers but then said those very same people who gave evidence were coerced based upon those same newspapers reports.

So Melbourne people:

Is it a case that:

(a) You believe the "facts" reported in the newspaper are not what the people said;
(b) You believe the "facts" reported in the newspaper are what people said but that evidence isn't credible because it was coerced.

in any event, where is your evidence for coercion.

Now wait for the stream of vitriol from Melbourne supporters to spew out like Versuvius.
Royals, this is utter bullshit mate, and to be honest you are beginning to read like someone just looking to take cheap shots which I hope isn't the case because you've provided some positive contributions to this debate, unlike many other opposition supporters.

Any Melbourne supporter with half a brain accepts that we can only take what is being reported in the media with a grain of salt, and that includes reports of coercion as part of the investigation. To do otherwise would be hypocritical.

The discussion surrounding this is on that very basis - what would be the implications if it turns out to be true. It is not being accepted as fact, because we don't know whether it so at this stage.
 

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Baldur

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The AFL knows they are on trail as much as melbourne are on this, who will win?
The AFL is Police, Judge, Jury & Prison Warder. Who do you think is going to win? They can no longer deny it exists, they need a victim to pin the blame on so they can be seem to have done something. In this case Connolly & Schwab look like Mr & Mrs Bo.
 

Sprout

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The AFL is Police, Judge, Jury & Prison Warder. Who do you think is going to win? They can no longer deny it exists, they need a victim to pin the blame on so they can be seem to have done something. In this case Connolly & Schwab look like Mr & Mrs Bo.
I get what you're saying, but at the heart of the matter is what do the AFL stand to gain or lose from punishing the club, particularly if it is on the basis of the testimony of a couple of ex-players or staff (pending on which staff).

The focus from the vultures is that the AFL must be seen to act to protect the integrity of the competition, almost regardless of the weight of evidence. This fails to take into account the ramifications for the AFL of admitting that tanking took place i.e. flow-on effects with betting agencies, investigations into other clubs, the fact that the integrity of the competition has been allowed to be compromised for so long etc.

If the question is, do the AFL really want to find something incriminating in this matter? I would think the answer is resolutely no, they don't. But they are undertaking a thorough investigation because that in itself is protecting the integrity of the game.

In light of this, I would think the for the AFL to act, they would want to be in a position where they have no choice but to act. That is, they have irrefutable evidence that Melbourne tanked.
 

Baldur

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Sprout said:
I get what you're saying, but at the heart of the matter is what do the AFL stand to gain or lose from punishing the club, particularly if it is on the basis of the testimony of a couple of ex-players or staff (pending on which staff).

The focus from the vultures is that the AFL must be seen to act to protect the integrity of the competition, almost regardless of the weight of evidence. This fails to take into account the ramifications for the AFL of admitting that tanking took place i.e. flow-on effects with betting agencies, investigations into other clubs, the fact that the integrity of the competition has been allowed to be compromised for so long etc.

If the question is, do the AFL really want to find something incriminating in this matter? I would think the answer is resolutely no, they don't. But they are undertaking a thorough investigation because that in itself is protecting the integrity of the game.

In light of this, I would think the for the AFL to act, they would want to be in a position where they have no choice but to act. That is, they have irrefutable evidence that Melbourne tanked.​
As I already said I think that the AFL will not find that Melbourne tanked, unless some coaches roll over. I question if they really want them to roll over, how hard are they really pushing them? Sure there have been some newspaper reports about people being pressured, I take them with a lot of salt. Could just as easily be a smoke screen to cover up the cover up.

The gloves will come off if Melbourne are stupid enough to go anywhere near a court. Baileys comments when he was sacked are enough for a good QC to cut him to ribbons in cross.

But will punish Connolly, Schwab and Melbourne for planning to tank under the disrepute rules. This allows them to have their cake and eat it as well. Deny tanking actually occured but still deliver a harsh lesson. A Win Win for the AFL's point of view.

I have no confidence whatsoever in the AFL's wish to obtain an honest result. Their investigations in the past to me have all appeared to acheive a pre programed result.
 

ziad

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The AFL is Police, Judge, Jury & Prison Warder. Who do you think is going to win? They can no longer deny it exists, they need a victim to pin the blame on so they can be seem to have done something. In this case Connolly & Schwab look like Mr & Mrs Bo.
a retorical question, but you are to a nail, what is a hammer
 

TheBoss

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Melbourne tanked. However, due to the fact the AFL collects millions of dollars in revenue from betting agencies it is not in their interest to declare that MFC tanked and to punish us because this will lead to betting agencies to question the integrity of the competition.

Eventually, the AFL will conclude that MFC's tanking was "list management" and that will be the end of it, even though deep down everyone knows that is complete, and utter bullshit.
 

ManOfClay

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hey guys!!!!!!!!


Just checking in to see if theres any evidence yet of the MFC tanking since I started this epic thread?


Whats that you say??


THERES NO EVIDENCE? :eek:

YOU MEAN CAROLINE WILSON WAS LYING???? MAKING UP STUFF TO SELL PAPERS??

SHOCK HORROR!!!!!!



Ok anyway fellas, I am off to drool over my Oliver Wines photo collection


Have a great day!!!!!!! :)


Meanwhile you might not even draft him.

Look forward to Jimmy Toumpas being Melbourned into Cale Morton.
 

Mofra

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No, I expect them to use evidence to back up their arguments if they want to be taken seriously.
So what evidence do you want that BF posters could reasonably obtain?
It's a pretty easy argument to say "I want evidence" on an internet forum knowing full well the evidence is likely to be employee testimony and we'd be relying on media reports for any sense of what that testimony is.
 
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