Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[Gysberts2Bate]

In 2016 we did that trade with Hawthorn of our 2016 first for their 2017 first and a couple of 2nd rounders or whatever, so that they could get JOM. That’s how we got both Clark and Coffield the next year.

Both of whom have shown plenty (including both in the AFL 22Under22 team of the year last year), but need to have big preseasons and get much fitter for next year and really step it up.

Clark has to become an elite midfielder.

 

[BrutThough]

Not enough elite talent from the 2013-2016 drafts is the issue. Billings is a good but not great player, McCartin flopped, 2015 pick 6 lost for Carlisle and not sure what happened in 2016 (Ben Long?). Steele and Howard were moved in the right direction to offset this, but will take a few more years for Clark and Coffield to come on for them to really contend.

Our lack of elite talent during those years has hurt and why we have had to trade so heavily the past few years.

But in 2015, we did get a first rounder back in the Carlisle trade which we used to select Gresham. Has all the talent but a bad few years with injury. If he can get a good run with it next year, he's the match winner/x-factor mid we are desperately missing.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Clark has to become an elite midfielder.

Indeed. That’s what we drafted him for. Didn’t have the body for it (strength or fitness wise) early doors, and he’s been so good across HB that it’s gotten too easy for us to just leave him there, but with so many viable options back there now (Hill, Sinclair, Coffield, Paton, Highmore, Webster, guys like Ross) there’s really no excuse to not have him play mainly midfield from now on.

Gresham is the other one. Looked on the verge of breakout midfield years both last year and again this year, before season-ending injuries in both (Brownlow votes in 3 of his last 6 games last year and 2nd-most coaches votes in one of his two full games this year, despite a very interrupted prep).

 

[Ducky Tie]

When you do a deep dive into the list, it's pretty clear when they need to be aiming to contend. 2024-2025 is probably going to be the peak with the current group. King, Clark, Marshall, Coffield, Gresham and Higgins will all be at around 80-100 games by the start of 2024 and really starting to get near their best. The strength of the list is that literally only Ryder won't be there in three years. That will allow this group to get a lot of stability and experience together.

Steele will be 28 by 2024 so still at his peak. I expect King and Steele will be genuine A-graders. It should at the very least be a finals team. Whether it can go beyond that depends on the development of those other names I mentioned. If two or three of them can develop into consistent A graders, I think it is a team that contend. If they don't, too much will be left to Steele and King and it probably remains a team in the 5-10 region.

If you look at the current best 22 and advance it two years forward to 2024 (excluding Ryder), the team would head into the season with these players - ages/games played (roughly):

[TD valign="top"]Highmore 26/50[/TD][TD valign="top"]Wilkie 28/100[/TD][TD valign="top"]Paton 25/70[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Sinclair 29/160[/TD][TD valign="top"]Howard 28/125[/TD][TD valign="top"]Coffield 24/90[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Billings 28/190[/TD][TD valign="top"]Steele 28/160[/TD][TD valign="top"]Hill 30/230[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Gresham 26/135[/TD][TD valign="top"]Membrey 29/170[/TD][TD valign="top"]Higgins 25/100[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Sharman 23/50[/TD][TD valign="top"]King 23/80[/TD][TD valign="top"]Butler 27/120[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Marshall 28/105[/TD][TD valign="top"]Clark 25/100[/TD][TD valign="top"]Jones 29/150[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Ross 31/200[/TD][TD valign="top"]Crouch 30/150[/TD][TD valign="top"]McKenzie 27/90[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Byrnes 22/50[/TD][TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]

Of course, it never works out exactly like that and things will happen on the way - positive and negative. Young players will come in (Bytel, Connolly, this year's crop of draftees etc) and some will move on/drop away (potentially Ross drops off and I could see McKenzie remaining on the fringe). Overall though, that will be the group over the next few years. It's very well balanced from an age perspective with so many players in the hit zone (lets say 24-30) in the 2023-2025 years, but again, it is very dependant on the improvement of Clark, King, Coffield, Gresham, Marshall, Higgins, Highmore types.

 

[aussierulesrules]

If we bounce back into finals next year (far from out of the question, given this year was a “year from hell” type year, where so much went wrong/against us, yet we finished just a win and percentage out of the finals, and have lots of upside), then our salary cap could really open up at the end of that year (with Hanneberys crazy deal finally off the books), which could put us in a great position to attract either an “elite mid” to help Steele and co., or Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

23

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

, who we’re obviously hunting hard.

Either of which could put us in a position to really contend.

Really need to nail our first pick in the draft this year in particular though.

 

[Freomaniac]

Ended up coming equal-5th in the B&F (with Crouch), so far from the disaster he was looking like being, and you’d think that the better we get as a team, the more damaging he will become.

Has now finished 1st, 3rd and 5th in best and fairests in the past 5 seasons.

Will almost certainly end up being a loss overall, but you’re not going to win them all.

We’d be very happy with what we’ve gotten from Jones, Ryder, Howard, Crouch, Higgins and Butler, and I imagine wouldn’t hesitate to do all those deals again, if given the opportunity to go back in time and change our minds.

All of those 7 have finished top 8 in one or both of the last two B&F’s, except Higgins, who missed 3 games, yet still kicked 27 goals.

Brad Hill was always going to be verbally slaughtered on here due to his wages. That was always going to happen if he underperformed.

As far as the other players you mentioned... Crouch was always going to be a good deal as he was taken as a free agent. Its always a good ting getting a solid Midfielder like him for free. The rest of the blokes you traded in for a reasonable price. Only things about the Port trade where you gave up picks 12 and 18 for pick 10, Howard and Ryder was you needed someone to replace Carlisle. Ryder was always going to be a stop gap player. Should of got another young ruckman aged 18-22 in the late pick or rookie pick the same year you traded Ryder as an eventual replacement. Taht player would of played 10-20 games in 2-3 years while ryder is on the saints list. Its better than keeping both Paul Hunter and Shaun Mckernan.

Getting higgins and Bulter from the tigers might work out well in the end. Butler played in Richmonds 2017 premiership side and is only 25 years old. Saints could be fortunate or lucky enough to get a flag while Butler is still on the list.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Brad Hill was always going to be verbally slaughtered on here due to his wages. That was always going to happen if he underperformed.

Criticised, yes. Verbal slaughtering seems a bridge far. As ARR said, he had a much improved season and came top five in the best and fairest. The trade will probably never be worth the salary/trade cost it took, but he can still be a valuable contributor and a really good player. You seem to have a strange fascination with him. I don't really see anyone else with the same hell bent agenda to deliver such excessive and constant criticism of him. Your 75 posts in the Hill thread is 4 x that of anyone else.

 

[Freomaniac]

Criticised, yes. Verbal slaughtering seems a bridge far. As ARR said, he had a much improved season and came top five in the best and fairest. The trade will probably never be worth the salary/trade cost it took, but he can still be a valuable contributor and a really good player. You seem to have a strange fascination with him. I don't really see anyone else with the same hell bent agenda to deliver such excessive and constant criticism of him. Your 75 posts in the Hill thread is 4 x that of anyone else.

well heres the thing....... Some of your saints mates, Most notably posters like StCicatriz and Plugger35 and projectv and joop had this obsession with Ross Lyon coaching freo. They and other saints fans constantly sank the boots in.

I mean.... you didnt really exactly rip Freo off in that Brad Hill trade didnt you?

Brad Hill and a future 2020 3rd rounder.

Freo got in return: Blake Acres, Pick 10, pick 58, 2020 future 2nd and 2020 furture 4th. That pick 10 eventually ended up as pick 8, which was Caleb Serong.

 

[aussierulesrules]

well heres the thing....... Some of your saints mates, Most notably posters like StCicatriz and Plugger35 and projectv and joop had this obsession with Ross Lyon coaching freo. They and other saints fans constantly sank the boots in.

I mean.... you didnt really exactly rip Freo off in that Brad Hill trade didnt you?

Brad Hill and a future 2020 3rd rounder.

Freo got in return: Blake Acres, Pick 10, pick 58, 2020 future 2nd and 2020 furture 4th. That pick 10 eventually ended up as pick 8, which was Caleb Serong.

Good to see you’re not holding a grudge!

 

[Ducky Tie]

well heres the thing....... Some of your saints mates, Most notably posters like StCicatriz and Plugger35 and projectv and joop had this obsession with Ross Lyon coaching freo. They and other saints fans constantly sank the boots in.

I mean.... you didnt really exactly rip Freo off in that Brad Hill trade didnt you?

Brad Hill and a future 2020 3rd rounder.

Freo got in return: Blake Acres, Pick 10, pick 58, 2020 future 2nd and 2020 furture 4th. That pick 10 eventually ended up as pick 8, which was Caleb Serong.

I didn't say we did rip Freo off? Said the opposite in fact.

I steered well clear of the Ross threads over the years, but it seems like a strange process to make it a tit for tat by laying the boots into Hill at every opportunity in response to an entirely different topic. Take the Ross Lyon stuff to a Ross Lyon thread if there were unreasonable posts about it from Saints fans, rather than using it as motivation for a barrage of constant condemnation of Hill.

The Hill trade was high and his salary is high. We all know that and I think most Saints fans are pretty reasonable about that. He played reasonable footy this year and most people seem to be moving on. There's no point dredging it up every week with 'verbal slaughter'.

 

[Freomaniac]

Good to see you’re not holding a grudge!

Plugger35 wasted 8 years from 2012-19 in hating Ross Lyon. Saints didnt make finals once from 2012-19. So if the saints struggled, Plugger35 went ape pss towards the umpires and the opposition sides

 

[The Unicorn]

Or it tells us all we need to know about your non-Essendon football knowledge and opinions.

BTW your team won just one more game than us for the year, despite the fact you had a significantly easier draw (played 3 more games against the bottom 5 teams than us, with double-ups against the two bottom teams, and Hawthorn, during the period when they were generally bottom 2!!).

If we’d had your piss-easy draw and you’d had our brutal one (all of our 10 double-up games against teams who were in the top 8 at the time we played them), we likely play finals again and you finish at least two wins behind.

Put it this way. If you are your footy club is planning on going deep into September next season, I'm sure your team's hoping Jack Sinclair doesn't finish second in your clubs best and fairest again.

Your team's draw was tougher than ours ended up being. Wasn't a bad season at all for a team going through a mini rebuild and everyone had in the bottom 4. Where we had an off season of losing Saad, Daniher and Fantasia and stocked up with Elite kids who will benefit us in the future. You guys went to the well and stocked up on ready made player's in their prime. Like crouch. A solid B grader. A year or so after bringing in Howard and selling the farm for Hill.

Comparing where our list is to yours is ridiculous. But from what I remember we matched up on the Doggies a lot better than your mob did.

 

[Ambrosia]

When you do a deep dive into the list, it's pretty clear when they need to be aiming to contend. 2024-2025 is probably going to be the peak with the current group. King, Clark, Marshall, Coffield, Gresham and Higgins will all be at around 80-100 games by the start of 2024 and really starting to get near their best. The strength of the list is that literally only Ryder won't be there in three years. That will allow this group to get a lot of stability and experience together.

Steele will be 28 by 2024 so still at his peak. I expect King and Steele will be genuine A-graders. It should at the very least be a finals team. Whether it can go beyond that depends on the development of those other names I mentioned. If two or three of them can develop into consistent A graders, I think it is a team that contend. If they don't, too much will be left to Steele and King and it probably remains a team in the 5-10 region.

If you look at the current best 22 and advance it two years forward to 2024 (excluding Ryder), the team would head into the season with these players - ages/games played (roughly):

[TD valign="top"]Highmore 26/50[/TD][TD valign="top"]Wilkie 28/100[/TD][TD valign="top"]Paton 25/70[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Sinclair 29/160[/TD][TD valign="top"]Howard 28/125[/TD][TD valign="top"]Coffield 24/90[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Billings 28/190[/TD][TD valign="top"]Steele 28/160[/TD][TD valign="top"]Hill 30/230[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Gresham 26/135[/TD][TD valign="top"]Membrey 29/170[/TD][TD valign="top"]Higgins 25/100[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Sharman 23/50[/TD][TD valign="top"]King 23/80[/TD][TD valign="top"]Butler 27/120[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Marshall 28/105[/TD][TD valign="top"]Clark 25/100[/TD][TD valign="top"]Jones 29/150[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Ross 31/200[/TD][TD valign="top"]Crouch 30/150[/TD][TD valign="top"]McKenzie 27/90[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]Byrnes 22/50[/TD][TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]

Of course, it never works out exactly like that and things will happen on the way - positive and negative. Young players will come in (Bytel, Connolly, this year's crop of draftees etc) and some will move on/drop away (potentially Ross drops off and I could see McKenzie remaining on the fringe). Overall though, that will be the group over the next few years. It's very well balanced from an age perspective with so many players in the hit zone (lets say 24-30) in the 2023-2025 years, but again, it is very dependant on the improvement of Clark, King, Coffield, Gresham, Marshall, Higgins, Highmore types.

Pretty handy looking side but the issue for me is the lack of top end talent after Steele and King. Saints need some of the sub 50ish games players to really take a big leap forward in their development and get Gresham back to looking like a future star to challenge for a grand final/flag.

That being said a lot of sides don’t look great until they actually are like Richmond for instance.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Pretty handy looking side but the issue for me is the lack of top end talent after Steele and King. Saints need some of the sub 50ish games players to really take a big leap forward in their development and get Gresham back to looking like a future star to challenge for a grand final/flag.

That being said a lot of sides don’t look great until they actually are like Richmond for instance.

Yeah this is absolutely the issue. It'll be the difference between being a good solid side who makes some finals but never really contends, and being a legitimate shot at it. Clark and Gresham have lots riding on them. At least one of them needs to turn into a genuine A grade midfielder. Gresham's injuries the past two years are concerning and it'll be interesting to see how he comes back next year. We really need to prioritise Clark's development as a midfielder. Needs a massive pre-season and an extended run at it in midfield. Steele, Crouch, Jones is solid but too workmanlike and lacking class. Clark and Gresham are points of difference but neither are guarantees.

 

[Verdun]

Pretty handy looking side but the issue for me is the lack of top end talent after Steele and King. Saints need some of the sub 50ish games players to really take a big leap forward in their development and get Gresham back to looking like a future star to challenge for a grand final/flag.

That being said a lot of sides don’t look great until they actually are like Richmond for instance.

Fair post.

Saints have unearthed a couple of gems in Sharman (natural footballer that is hard to find reckon he is a gun), Connolly and Highmore. There needs to be continued progression from Clark, Coffield, Bytel and to get Gresham back on the field adds class in the middle and forward line.

I have been hoping for a focus on getting mids through the draft for a while as have other Saints supporters we need class in the middle.

Higgins is still young and brings x factor

Have class in King, Steele, Marshall and Gresham if there is development with them along with others the list is in a reasonable position.

There are some older top up players that will not be there next year - Frawley, Hunter along with Carlisle

No doubt the off season will be an interesting one as it will for a lot of clubs, Saints need to nail the trade / draft period.

 

[JimmyMann]

Not enough elite talent from the 2013-2016 drafts is the issue. Billings is a good but not great player, McCartin flopped, 2015 pick 6 lost for Carlisle and not sure what happened in 2016 (Ben Long?). Steele and Howard were moved in the right direction to offset this, but will take a few more years for Clark and Coffield to come on for them to really contend.

All fair criticisms, the 2015 one I still see as a win, since we got pick 18 back with Carlisle and took Gresham (who has just been unlucky with injuries the last 2 seasons). But yeah some of our drafting at the top end has been very iffy for a long time, can't question some of the finds we've made from nothing i.e. Wilkie, Sharman, Hind (before we shipped him off), Sinclair was a rookie selection (and just got 2nd in our BnF).

 

[Chuckie357]

The proof is in the pudding after tonight’s brownlow count, that the second highest vote getter was Dunstan who wasn’t selected for most of the season and then hasn’t been offered a contract for next season. Idiocy

 

[JimmyMann]

It's probably wishful thinking but ever since we made the SF last year I was mentally preparing for a similar 2019 Demons hangover after breaking our own finals drought (especially after a lot of key injuries during the pre-season). We didn't quite end up on the ladder where they were (the 1st half had all the lows of their 2019) but in all honesty it's got the same dees 2020 'our poor start cost us finals despite being good enough' vibe. The dees list is better obviously but they've shown how to bounce back from an underwhelming season.

There are still a lot of positives from the 2nd half of the season. We smashed Sydney, Freo + Brissy (@ Gabba) who were in hot form coming into our matches + thrashed Richmond on a Friday night at the 'G post-bye (when they usually get their season up and going). Aside from the Blues loss which was a debacle, losing to our 3 biggest bogey teams in Port, West Coast (@ Optus) and Geelong (@ GMHBA) by around a couple goals were far from bad efforts. The 1st half of the season was mindboggling and plain embarrassing far too often but the response following it was immense (especially considering we fielded a lot of inexperience late), and for a supporter of a team with 1 solitary flag that kind of hope is what keeps you coming back.

 

[Mat Mann]

The proof is in the pudding after tonight’s brownlow count, that the second highest vote getter was Dunstan who wasn’t selected for most of the season and then hasn’t been offered a contract for next season. Idiocy

no, I think its proof we had ALOT of injuries to key players during the season.

11 players played 20+ games this season
10 of them finished top10 in the club B&F
only 16 players played more than 15 games.

As for Luke Dunstan, led the club in turnovers at 5.4 a game, 50 turnovers in 303 possessions in 12 games.

I'll back the club's choice that there is better.

 

[Dazb86]

I just don't see the current list contending at the pointy end over the next few years.

A lot can change pretty quickly in AFL though.

 

[markm106]

Delisting Dunstan is a bit of a head scratcher. He is limited in his game but at a minimum would be decent backup with injury. I assume he probably wanted out anyway given he’s on the outer.

 

[markm106]

Speaking to a Saints fan last week. He was spot on. They just don’t have multiple stars to rely on winning a game week in week out. Other than Steele there’s no one. I’d say King is a chance and perhaps Marshall to get there. But I think need another midfield gun.

 

[Veer Right]

It's cute that until this year more people would have rated St Kilda a better team then Melbourne. Now as the year has panned the way it has, a dee supporter is an expert on star power. Yes we need another A grade mid to support Steele but other then that we are fine, defence and forward are no concern at all, lot of quality at either end and both ends will get better and better as the newer talent plays more games together.

Age profile is fine. Not a single player would be missed over the age of 27 if they all moved on with Ryder the exception.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Clark has to become an elite midfielder.

Don't think he will though.

The Dad Bod makes him too easy to tag. Not fast enough, not strong enough. Even if/when he improves, strong and fit taggers will eat him for breakfast.

 

[demondavey]

It's cute that until this year more people would have rated St Kilda a better team then Melbourne. Now as the year has panned the way it has, a dee supporter is an expert on star power. Yes we need another A grade mid to support Steele but other then that we are fine, defence and forward are no concern at all, lot of quality at either end and both ends will get better and better as the newer talent plays more games together.

Age profile is fine. Not a single player would be missed over the age of 27 if they all moved on with Ryder the exception.

It’s a public forum mate. Take it to your board if you don’t like it.

Personally I think the Saints are pretty close. Even if they have a down year next year it’s not the end of the world. Steele, Marshall, King, Gresham, Clark, Coffield, Long, Higgins, Butler. It’s a pretty good core group. Ratten is the man for sure. Need another two young midfielders plus a key defender. I’d be getting Hannebery and Hill off your books to free up some cash. Jones looks ok at times.

If all goes right they should be top 4-6 from 24 onwards.