Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

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MrCharisma

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Wouldn't be an issue if Indonesia did its part at its own shores. Surely you'd agree with this ?

Let's not forget that these Asylum seekers are only transiting through Indonesia towards their ultimate destination; Australia. The Indonesians have always maintained that responsibility lays upon the country of destination, is this really such an outrageous sentiment? Especially considering that Australia is a UN signatory, and Indonesia is not.

Claims such as "Indonesia should protect its borders" are drivel. Indonesia is an archipelagic nation consisting of almost 20,000 Islands, they also have a poorly equipped navy. If it's impossible for Australia to protect our borders - with the most sophisticated navy in the pacific region, how can you except Indonesia to? It can't be done.

Indonesia - as a third world nation, with limited resources - is doing its part, and then some, by dealing with the social and economic burden thrust upon them by asylum seekers wishing to come to Australia.
 

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Indonesia doing their part by dealing with the social and economic burden thrust upon them by asylum seekers , **** off, no one but you could come up with this horseshit, ps they may wish to come to Australia, but who says we have to take them, do you not understand that every opinion poll in Australia , the overwhelming majority don't want them or the burden of providing for them , we are entitled to a say in this , just because you and a few others disagree, and wring your hands and complain loudly , take the hint for a change the majority don't accept them as genuine refugees at all, jesus abbott was voted into take control of the borders and has done so, an Australian navy boat strayed into their waters and you guys run round as the skys going to fall in, no mention of the numerous Indonesian fishing boats plundering our marine life, talk about being selective
 
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they need help. fine, donate money or supplies, but if they wish to flee fine, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait , UAE, Oman , Lebanon are all close by, and all have similar cultural backgrounds, and the capacity to take them in, what has it got to do with us, we didn't cause their problems , it time the middle east stepped in and sorted out this, we can give aid , but we are not the custodian of the region,
 

midorigreenwood

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/w...-and-indonesia-over-migrant-patrols.html?_r=0

Yohanes Sulaiman, a lecturer at the Indonesian Defense University, said that regardless of any stepped-up patrols, the Indonesian Navy was not equipped to challenge Australian naval vessels that entered its territory.

“What, are they looking to sink Australian ships? They don’t have the ability to do that,” he said. “It’s all bark and no bite, but they have to say something because of the news that Australia crossed the border.”
Its a wait and see I guess.

From all reports, at least five boats/lifeboat have been towed to outside/inside Indonesian waters as well as two or three which may have been intimidated back to their origin.

so one or two turnbacks a week during the past month.

If boats reach Christmas Island/Ashmore Reef/Mainland then its a strong sign that Australia has softened their position.

Otherwise we can probably assume its business as usual albeit in a more heated environment.
 

PottSie2

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Well done you finally admitted they broke Maritime Law and where forced to appologise as I previously mentioned!




Is this a typical Pottsie2 d******d response?




No the Navy has not been breaching Maritime Law re the right of lawful passage/transit for military vessels for years!!!




What is this sovereignty to speak of Pottsie2, care to provide me a link to this in Maritime law or this another of your intellectual comments like your previous "Our Navy went inside a bit"?

Breaches of maritime law PottSie2 something you seem to have no understanding of!



What is this sovereignty abuse you speak of, provide me a link to a relevant law will you?

Why do you guys always resort to personal abuse ?

Why are you so upset that maritime law was broken escorting economic country shoppers back to their port of origin safely ?
Should we go back to a system that lures people to their deaths ?
Are you Indonesian ?
Did you get upset when Indonesian fishermen entered our waters (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/fishing-boats-australian-waters/5029042).
Do you get upset when Indonesian boats, with Indonesian Crew, leaving from Indonesian Ports enter our waters with people who pay thousands of dollars to reach our borders ?

I'm trying to understand this rage you are exerting regarding this ? And why it is selective.
 

romeoh

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Indonesia doing their part by dealing with the social and economic burden thrust upon them by asylum seekers , **** off, no one but you could come up with this horseshit, ps they may wish to come to Australia, but who says we have to take them, do you not understand that every opinion poll in Australia , the overwhelming majority don't want them or the burden of providing for them , we are entitled to a say in this , just because you and a few others disagree, and wring your hands and complain loudly , take the hint for a change the majority don't accept them as genuine refugees at all, jesus abbott was voted into take control of the borders and has done so, an Australian navy boat strayed into their waters and you guys run round as the skys going to fall in, no mention of the numerous Indonesian fishing boats plundering our marine life, talk about being selective
Majority of them are genuine refugees-look at the stats.
Where do you suggest they go if we 'don't want the burden' of providing for them? Do you think this is a situation that will just go away?
 

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MrCharisma

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yep go ahead and get abusive, when someone doesn't agree with you, ps ******, that's a bit low even for you

Replying to my civilised and relevant post with "**** off, no one but you could come up with this horseshit" is only going to get you one response. Saying that and then going on to say what I have quoted above is so idiotic and hypocritical, that for a second there, I thought you were being satirical. Then I realised you're probably not witty enough.
 

JRoo

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Why do you guys always resort to personal abuse ?

Why are you so upset that maritime law was broken escorting economic country shoppers back to their port of origin safely ?
Should we go back to a system that lures people to their deaths ?
Are you Indonesian ?
Did you get upset when Indonesian fishermen entered our waters (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/fishing-boats-australian-waters/5029042).
Do you get upset when Indonesian boats, with Indonesian Crew, leaving from Indonesian Ports enter our waters with people who pay thousands of dollars to reach our borders ?

I'm trying to understand this rage you are exerting regarding this ? And why it is selective.
Why do you guys always resort to personal abuse ?
Who is abusing anyone? I am trying to explain Maritime Law to a posters who intellect is only able to understand basic spoon feed concepts from their political party.

Why are you so upset that maritime law was broken escorting economic country shoppers back to their port of origin safely ?
Because it is a breach of maritime law not, once, but repeatedly!


Should we go back to a system that lures people to their deaths ?
Are you Indonesian ?
Did you get upset when Indonesian fishermen entered our waters (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/fishing-boats-australian-waters/5029042).
Do you get upset when Indonesian boats, with Indonesian Crew, leaving from Indonesian Ports enter our waters with people who pay thousands of dollars to reach our borders ?

I'm trying to understand this rage you are exerting regarding this ? And why it is selective.
The rest of your post above is just the usual dribble from posters who have NFI beyond anything that isn't a 3 world slogan and hasn't been feed to them them by their political leaders!

I am also still waiting for this sovereignty abuse you speak of, provide me a link to a relevant law will you?

Also can you provide me a link to the maritime law relevant to your comment that "Our Navy went inside a bit"?
 

noddy

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This is what happens when you let boy soldiers like Abbott & Morrison take charge of operational matters in regards to our armed forces, now i realize that the Indonesian navy would be out manned & out gunned by the Australian Navy but this situation could end up as David v Goliath confrontation.


Australian breach of Indonesian territorial waters angers Jakarta

 

1061

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This is what happens when you let boy soldiers like Abbott & Morrison take charge of operational matters in regards to our armed forces, now i realize that the Indonesian navy would be out manned & out gunned by the Australian Navy but this situation could end up as David v Goliath confrontation.


Australian breach of Indonesian territorial waters angers Jakarta

Problem is they have right on their side, our Warships entered their Country compared to a few leaky fishing boats with so called refugee's entering ours it's huge difference.

Of course if they confronted us we could and should then pull any money we give them, hit them in the hip pocket and they'll come begging. I don't know why we haven't used that as a lever before in this debate.
 

JeffDunne

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I think that's the question Indonesians would be asking of our Government.

Patrol their own waters.
Stop people from getting on boats in the first place.
Stop people at the airports.
Out corrupt Policeman ?
All for what gain for Indonesia?

I can't think of a more naive position to take in relation to international affairs than wishing another country "do their part" in helping us where they have nothing to gain. It's not only naive - it's the height of arrogance.

If you want Indonesia's co-operation then you need to give them a reason to co-operate with us. Acting like a colonial power might work with South Pacific nations where we have financial leverage but it's not going to work with a regional power like Indonesia. If we want their help we better give them a good reason to want to help. The current government (& the previous one for that matter) have given them every reason to not want to co-operate and in fact have given them good reason to exacerbate the problem (from our perspective).

Do you think they are blameless in all this ?
"Blame" is not a word I'd use . . . refugees are unfortunately a reality of life. A reality we help perpetuate.

In regards to Indonesia & our problem with refugees, I have always seen them as the key actor we needed to work with if we wanted to stop boats arriving.

Interestingly, conservatives that are now blaming Indonesia are the some of the same people that scoffed at suggestions Indonesia was the "problem" when boats continued to arrive under the previous government. Those boats were supposedly the result of poor leadership and ineffective Australian government policy. Now we have a change of government conservatives conveniently "blame" Indonesia.

Now I know some of the right-wing loons don't accept this but the only time the boats stopped was when Howard paid the Indonesians to do so. Billions in aid and military support was the price. Detention centers, advertising campaigns, towing boats out to sea, etc. make little difference despite the billions wasted and the suffering afflicted on refugees implementing these policies. It doesn't matter who is in power in Oz.

The end result of all this bullshit and Australian bravado is Indonesia now have a powerful leverage over Australian governments who continue to make asylum seekers their key domestic policy. Leverage Abbott seems hell bent on increasing.
 

GuruJane

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Let's not forget that these Asylum seekers are only transiting through Indonesia towards their ultimate destination; Australia. The Indonesians have always maintained that responsibility lays upon the country of destination, is this really such an outrageous sentiment? Especially considering that Australia is a UN signatory, and Indonesia is not.
If the responsibility lies with the country of destination Indonesia cannot logically complain about Australia attempting to turn - tow boats back.

In fact, the transit country has to take responsibility for the actions of its own citizens. If it were Australian citizens delivering an wanted and unauthorised foreign national arrivals to Indonesia we would pretty quickly hear about it.

Claims such as "Indonesia should protect its borders" are drivel. Indonesia is an archipelagic nation consisting of almost 20,000 Islands, they also have a poorly equipped navy. If it's impossible for Australia to protect our borders - with the most sophisticated navy in the pacific region, how can you except Indonesia to? It can't be done.
Agree with that. However there are many practical things Indonesia can do to stop the people smuggled boat trade - for eg ..

1. Require visas from all citizens of source countries wanting th visit Indonesia (as they eventually did with the Iranians).

2. Agree to accept back any boatloads picked upn by Australian vessels in a ship to ship transfer (as they did early in Abbott govt). ie - accept the turnbacks without question.

3. Agree to accept back Indonesia crew and passengers who make it to Christmas Island (ie Malaysian Solution but without the people swap).

If it announced it was doing all three, then boats would stop immediately.

Indonesia - as a third world nation, with limited resources - is doing its part, and then some, by dealing with the social and economic burden thrust upon them by asylum seekers wishing to come to Australia.
If it took firm action with Australia to stop the boats leaving Indonesia, then far fewer chancers would be flying to Jakarta to "catch a boat". Indeed the numbers flying in have dropped dramatically in the last month from 1500 to less than 300 according to Morrison.
 

romeoh

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I think that's the question Indonesians would be asking of our Government.


All for what gain for Indonesia?

I can't think of a more naive position to take in relation to international affairs than wishing another country "do their part" in helping us where they have nothing to gain. It's not only naive - it's the height of arrogance.

If you want Indonesia's co-operation then you need to give them a reason to co-operate with us. Acting like a colonial power might work with South Pacific nations where we have financial leverage but it's not going to work with a regional power like Indonesia. If we want their help we better give them a good reason to want to help. The current government (& the previous one for that matter) have given them every reason to not want to co-operate and in fact have given them good reason to exacerbate the problem (from our perspective).


"Blame" is not a word I'd use . . . refugees are unfortunately a reality of life. A reality we help perpetuate.

In regards to Indonesia & our problem with refugees, I have always seen them as the key actor we needed to work with if we wanted to stop boats arriving.

Interestingly, conservatives that are now blaming Indonesia are the some of the same people that scoffed at suggestions Indonesia was the "problem" when boats continued to arrive under the previous government. Those boats were supposedly the result of poor leadership and ineffective Australian government policy. Now we have a change of government conservatives conveniently "blame" Indonesia.

Now I know some of the right-wing loons don't accept this but the only time the boats stopped was when Howard paid the Indonesians to do so. Billions in aid and military support was the price. Detention centers, advertising campaigns, towing boats out to sea, etc. make little difference despite the billions wasted and the suffering afflicted on refugees implementing these policies. It doesn't matter who is in power in Oz.

The end result of all this bullshit and Australian bravado is Indonesia now have a powerful leverage over Australian governments who continue to make asylum seekers their key domestic policy. Leverage Abbott seems hell bent on increasing.
Excellent summation of the situation. Need more clear- eyed articles like this in the media.
 

JeffDunne

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Yes they would. The indonesian Navy and military in general is terribly equipped/maintained and is easily outgunned by the ADF. The IDF understand this as does the ADF.
Too simplistic (especially given it's not the IDF "accidentally" making incursions into Australian territorial waters).

Does Indonesia have the capability to launch an attack on Oz . . . clearly no.

Does Indonesia have the capability to defend incursions into it's waters? Bloody oath it does. If they did so and we escalated it by retaliating then we'd be the aggressors. I doubt Indonesia would fight that battle alone.

Indonesia has nothing to gain by doing either so it's a pointless debate.
 

JeffDunne

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In fact, the transit country has to take responsibility for the actions of its own citizens.
Are you aware there are over 1M Indonesians living illegally in other countries in the region when making such an idealistic comment?

It is amusing to see the rabbids now reduced to holding hands and praying that Indonesia "stop the boats"
 

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Too simplistic (especially given it's not the IDF "accidentally" making incursions into Australian territorial waters).

Does Indonesia have the capability to launch an attack on Oz . . . clearly no.

Does Indonesia have the capability to defend incursions into it's waters? Bloody oath it does. If they did so and we escalated it by retaliating then we'd be the aggressors. I doubt Indonesia would fight that battle alone.

Indonesia has nothing to gain by doing either so it's a pointless debate.
No not simplistic at all. I have first hand experience with Indonesian military capabilities. Their equipment is either obsolete, unreliable, poorly maintained or simply insufficient for a armed conflict with say Australia the Indonesians know they would come of second best.

I doubt Indonesia would fight that battle alone.
I'd be interested to know who you think would come to Indonesia's assistance; China maybe if they thought it would give a greater power projection in the South East Asian area; Singapore, nope, Malaysia nope.

Indonesia has nothing to gain by doing either so it's a pointless debate.
No side would have anything to gain from an armed conflict between the ADF and the Indonesian equivalent; lets hope it never happens.
 

JeffDunne

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I'd be interested to know who you think would come to Indonesia's assistance; China maybe if they thought it would give a greater power projection in the South East Asian area; Singapore, nope, Malaysia nope.
If Australia provoked conflict by continued incursions into Indonesian territory, most nations would support Indonesia's position and not ours (including some of our closest allies). Most of that support would be economic rather than military and many would take action designed to cripple us rather than supporting Indonesia as such.

Indonesia certainly have the capability they need to orchestrate such an outcome. If we're (read Abbott) stupid enough to continue to breach Indonesian territorial waters they'll simply us their assets to challenge us by positioning navel assets between ours and refugee boats. It won't be Indonesia that fires the first shots.

So if it eventuates that we are the aggressors in an armed conflict . . . I wouldn't rule out any country assisting the Indonesians cause either directly or indirectly.

No side would have anything to gain from an armed conflict between the ADF and the Indonesian equivalent; lets hope it never happens.
It won't happen for one simple reason - there is nothing to be gained by either party in such a conflict.
 
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