Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Brown Bottle

Seasoned Campaigner
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Posts
12,372
Likes
8,069
Location
Browntown
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
East Side Hawks
You think JeffDunne was right in stating that the "Indonesians have the capability to defeat the ADF"?

Do you also think JeffDunne was right in saying that the ADF would "struggle to destroy their (Indonesia's) air defences"?

Do you also think JeffDunne was right in saying the "US refused to allow us to use in combat operations with them (our F18 Hornets)", when in actual fact the fourteen RAAF Hornets flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq.

So you also think JeffDunne is right in saying our supplying F18 's to provide escorts for their in refueling aircraftis "simply helping the Yanks carry their shopping".

Do you think JeffDunne was right in saying our F18 "Flying bombing missions where there is zero chance of being shot out of the sky is a training exercise not what I would call "combat", when the reality is coalition aircraft where being lost to combat from being shot down well after the end of the war?
I thought I was pretty specific about the bit that I thought was right. Maybe you should read the rest of my post - like immediately after the bit you bolded.

The rest of it is immaterial because if we were to go to war with Indonesia over this matter we would officially have the biggest bunch of *******s in the history of this planet running the show. I have no idea about our capability vs theirs. I'll take your word for it (or anyone else's) because I'm not interested.
 

MrCharisma

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Posts
2,006
Likes
1,764
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
If the responsibility lies with the country of destination Indonesia cannot logically complain about Australia attempting to turn - tow boats back.

In fact, the transit country has to take responsibility for the actions of its own citizens. If it were Australian citizens delivering an wanted and unauthorised foreign national arrivals to Indonesia we would pretty quickly hear about it.

Indonesia does take responsibility for its citizens. In 2011 they introduced people smuggling laws, and have arrested many people since.

The majority of the Indonesian citizens involved are only the middle-men - poor, uneducated fishermen who live off $1 a day. These guys barely know what they're doing, some of them are still teens; kids. Understandably, they're probably not well versed in international politics or Australian border protection laws. And even if they were, who in their position is going to say no to a large fortune that can provide them, and their families with much needed essentials like medicine, shelter, food etc.

The ringleaders, are from the asylum seekers' country of origin - Iraq, Iran, Sri Lanka. Your solution on how to get a country like Iraq to prevent people smuggling within their borders at the request of Australia?

On top all this, the underpaid Indonesian police force is highly corrupt and easily bribed. Your solution to stop third world corruption?


Agree with that. However there are many practical things Indonesia can do to stop the people smuggled boat trade - for eg ..

1. Require visas from all citizens of source countries wanting th visit Indonesia (as they eventually did with the Iranians).
You mean Kevin Rudd's idea? The 30 day visa has never been available to other source countries like Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. http://www.balidiscovery.com/other/visa_policy.asp

2. Agree to accept back any boatloads picked upn by Australian vessels in a ship to ship transfer (as they did early in Abbott govt). ie - accept the turnbacks without question.
Why? Indonesia already has an overcrowding issue in their detention centres. They simply don't have the resources to deal with the issue, nor do they an obligation to do so by international law. Australia on the other hand, has the resources to deal with the issue, and we are also under obligation by international law to offer protection to asylum seekers.

3. Agree to accept back Indonesia crew and passengers who make it to Christmas Island (ie Malaysian Solution but without the people swap).
They do let the Indonesian crew go back to Indonesia. Where do you think they go?

What is the Malaysian solution without the swap? Maybe we can swap cars, without the me giving you mine part of it?

If it announced it was doing all three, then boats would stop immediately.
Incorrect. Even if Indonesia wanted to and could stop the boats leaving from their country, the smugglers would just take a different route to Australia - See Horn of Africa http://www.irinnews.org/report/99095/horn-migrants-risk-new-routes-to-reach-europe
 

MrCharisma

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Posts
2,006
Likes
1,764
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
i'm sorry I didn't shit the thread up at all, the issue is now done and dusted, as the title says stop the boats, well they have been , by abbott and morrison , why keep rehashing the issue, when the liberals did what they said they would do, all it is doing is getting people who are overly compassionate worked up, and out of sorts and starting to lash out at other forum members
Yes, you have. The only things you have contributed to this thread are insults and off-topic arguing.
 

GuruJane

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Posts
15,540
Likes
1,696
Location
home of the mighty sa
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hawthorn, Tottenham
Yeah probably.

The cynic in me is starting to think that it might have been part of a broader strategy to get Indonesia to move naval assets into the region. It would certainly help "our" case internationally in turning back boats if Indonesia's military are there and turning a blind eye.
A slow dawning. Abbotts not a Rhodes Scholar for nothing Jeff.

Getting back to the issue of this thread ....

Something I've probably missed in the reporting, why did Australia apologise for the incursions?

i.e. did Indonesia raise it or did we volunteer the information?
Apparently we volunteered the info.

Why did we apologise. I can but guess.

My guess is that ever since Abbott chuffed off to Indonesia after getting elected he has been - on the one hand - apologising about things that suit him, greasing, flattering, paying homage, promising the world ..apologising, greasing, flattering etc etc ...

and on the other hand, pushin'and pushin'and pushin' on the boats from all sides - military, diplomatic, envoys whatever. Constantly, persistently, unrelentingly, endlessly like a tropical downpour at the height of the monsoon season. .

It'll all stop when Indonesia agrees that all boats detained by Australia will be transferred to their custody and will be taken back to Indonesia. Not too hard, really, when you think about it.
 

MrCharisma

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Posts
2,006
Likes
1,764
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Apparently we volunteered the info.

Why did we apologise. I can but guess.

The Indonesians already knew, the Navy were alerted by a radar alarm. They also demanded an explanation.

We're apologising because having a military vessel cross another country's border without permission is a major **** up. Plus it's a bit hard to swallow that a sophisticated military vessel with advanced global positioning systems and a highly trained crew didn't know where they were.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indonesia-to-increase-navy-patrols-after-australia-incursions/
Indonesia has sent two additional fast patrol boats to its southern maritime border as it deplored intrusions by the Australian navy into its waters and demanded Canberra suspend its military-led operation to halt the flow of asylum seekers.

Agus Barnas, a spokesman for the office of the chief security minister, said on Friday that Indonesia would intensify patrols along its border in the Timor Sea. Another frigate will be added to the existing armada there later this month, he said.

“The government of Indonesia deplores and rejects the violation of its sovereignty and territorial integrity by Australian vessels,” he said, reading a statement after a meeting on Friday between his office, the Foreign Ministry, the National Police and the Indonesian Military (TNI).

“The government of Indonesia underlines that any such violations … constitute a serious matter for the bilateral relations of the two countries.”

Agus said the Indonesian Navy already knew of the territorial breach by after a radar alert originating in Kupang, East Nusa Tenggara, earlier in the week.

Indonesia also demanded formal clarification for the infringements through diplomatic channels and assurances that such incidents would not be repeated.
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Posts
264
Likes
72
AFL Club
Richmond
see above , I have explained already why the forum needs to be closed down, and there is nothing wrong with compassion , only when it is misdirected and channelled into the wrong areas, then it becomes a problem
 

Bosun

Cancelled
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Posts
3,632
Likes
2,083
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Spurs
Indonesia does take responsibility for its citizens. In 2011 they introduced people smuggling laws, and have arrested many people since.

The majority of the Indonesian citizens involved are only the middle-men - poor, uneducated fishermen who live off $1 a day. These guys barely know what they're doing, some of them are still teens; kids. Understandably, they're probably not well versed in international politics or Australian border protection laws. And even if they were, who in their position is going to say no to a large fortune that can provide them, and their families with much needed essentials like medicine, shelter, food etc.

The ringleaders, are from the asylum seekers' country of origin - Iraq, Iran, Sri Lanka. Your solution on how to get a country like Iraq to prevent people smuggling within their borders at the request of Australia?

On top all this, the underpaid Indonesian police force is highly corrupt and easily bribed. Your solution to stop third world corruption?




You mean Kevin Rudd's idea? The 30 day visa has never been available to other source countries like Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. http://www.balidiscovery.com/other/visa_policy.asp



Why? Indonesia already has an overcrowding issue in their detention centres. They simply don't have the resources to deal with the issue, nor do they an obligation to do so by international law. Australia on the other hand, has the resources to deal with the issue, and we are also under obligation by international law to offer protection to asylum seekers.



They do let the Indonesian crew go back to Indonesia. Where do you think they go?

What is the Malaysian solution without the swap? Maybe we can swap cars, without the me giving you mine part of it?



Incorrect. Even if Indonesia wanted to and could stop the boats leaving from their country, the smugglers would just take a different route to Australia - See Horn of Africa http://www.irinnews.org/report/99095/horn-migrants-risk-new-routes-to-reach-europe
Absolute gold!! You don't know shit.
 

CLUBMEDhurst

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Posts
7,262
Likes
4,892
Location
Under the moonlight, the serious moonlight
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man City
This from Andrew Elder's blog

It is not OK to conduct military incursions into other countries' territories. It has never been OK. Morrison promised never to comment on operational matters, but he had to comment on these 'repeated incursions' before the full details came from Indonesia, or from some source other than his own mouth.

All the PR smarties tell you that if you have bad news, get it out early and get it out yourself. Some news, however, goes beyond mere 'bad news' or even a misunderstanding. Military incursions into other countries' territories is in this category.

The other category error that Morrison made was to blame the Navy, as though it blundered into Indonesian waters:
It was brought to my attention at just after 4.00pm Wednesday that Border Protection Command assets had, in the conduct of maritime operations associated with Operation Sovereign Borders, inadvertently entered Indonesian territorial waters on several occasions, in breach of Australian Government policy.

I should stress that this occurred unintentionally and without knowledge or sanction by the Australian Government.​
It strains credibility that the Navy veered off course and did not realise its vessels were in Indonesian waters. The Navy sent its vessels where government told them to go, and did what government told them to do. It is not OK to blame the military for government policy blunders, and ultimately such a tactic will work against the government rather than the military.
http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/scott-morrison-should-be-sacked.html
 

JeffDunne

TheBrownDog
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
50,988
Likes
21,658
Location
Jury Duty
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
New Orleans Saints
and on the other hand, pushin'and pushin'and pushin' on the boats from all sides - military, diplomatic, envoys whatever. Constantly, persistently, unrelentingly, endlessly like a tropical downpour at the height of the monsoon season. .
He doesn't understand how to conduct politics in Asia if that's the case.

After doing some further reading I doubt the Indonesians knew any of this prior to our confession. No way Indonesia sit on that sort of information. It's the sort of half-volley even a D grade cricketer sends back over the head of the bowler.

The more I think about this the more I do see it as a clever strategy in forcing Indonesia to get their military involved at the coal-face. Whether by design or a stroke of good fortune (i.e. John Kerry and Syria), it will potentially put the Indonesians into the unfortunate situation of having to pluck refugees from the sea or blindly turning away as they sail past or sink. That's got to be a win for Tony.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

AM

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Posts
21,041
Likes
17,508
Location
Here there and everywhere
AFL Club
Geelong
It appears there are many ways to shut down openness, transparency and accountability.

The Nauruan parliament has endorsed a 3,900 per cent increase in the visa application fee for journalists – making it prohibitively expensive for the media to report from the Pacific island republic where Australia now detains hundreds of asylum seekers who arrive by boat.
The Global Mail put the following question to the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection, Scott Morrison:

“Has the Australian government communicated with the Nauruan government about the application fee for journalist visas in that country? (If so, what was the nature of that communication and when did it take place?)”

In an emailed response, a spokesperson for the minister wrote: “This is a matter for the Government of Nauru.”
http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/an-8000-gag-visa/804/
 

GuruJane

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Posts
15,540
Likes
1,696
Location
home of the mighty sa
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hawthorn, Tottenham
He doesn't understand how to conduct politics in Asia if that's the case.
Maybe. But I don't see realpolitic in Indonesia would be any different than here.

Situation is Australia has finally elected a government that is taking responsibility for stopping the people smuggler trade that its previous government re-ignited. All it is asking of Indonesia is to accept back its own boats, its own nationals and the foreign nationals its citizens are enabling to enter Australia unauthorised. This is no more or less than Indonesia would demand of Australia if Australian citizens were delivering unwanted foreign nationals onto Indonesian territory.

I'm sure that this is the message Abbott is persistently conveying to Jakarta.

After doing some further reading I doubt the Indonesians knew any of this prior to our confession. No way Indonesia sit on that sort of information. It's the sort of half-volley even a D grade cricketer sends back over the head of the bowler.

The more I think about this the more I do see it as a clever strategy in forcing Indonesia to get their military involved at the coal-face. Whether by design or a stroke of good fortune (i.e. John Kerry and Syria), it will potentially put the Indonesians into the unfortunate situation of having to pluck refugees from the sea or blindly turning away as they sail past or sink. That's got to be a win for Tony.
For sure, Abbott will keep on keeping on until the people smuggler boats stop. Again, he would be telling Jakarta Australia is acting no more or less than how Indonesia would if the situations were reversed. Logic usually prevails in the end. I would expect that Abbott is also indicating that once the boats have stopped Australia will look at taking a set number of UN refugees from Indonesia in its humanitarian intake.

.
 

Ice-Wolf

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Posts
13,682
Likes
10,316
Location
Mornington Peninsula
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Anaheim Ducks, PSV Eindhoven
That's already been explained as unimportant in this thread, because it's just a guardian beat up. And the media hasn't visited there very much for the last five years, why is it important now?
Nauru have now sacked and deported/barred entry to their judiciary.
 
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Posts
264
Likes
72
AFL Club
Richmond
the age have an article the economic asylum seekers are complaining the ADF have been using profane language, wtf, is the age taking the piss or have they lost the plot , for even printing this crap ,
 

CLUBMEDhurst

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Posts
7,262
Likes
4,892
Location
Under the moonlight, the serious moonlight
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man City
Maybe. But I don't see realpolitic in Indonesia would be any different than here.

Situation is Australia has finally elected a government that is taking responsibility for stopping the people smuggler trade that its previous government re-ignited. All it is asking of Indonesia is to accept back its own boats, its own nationals and the foreign nationals its citizens are enabling to enter Australia unauthorised. This is no more or less than Indonesia would demand of Australia if Australian citizens were delivering unwanted foreign nationals onto Indonesian territory.

I'm sure that this is the message Abbott is persistently conveying to Jakarta.



For sure, Abbott will keep on keeping on until the people smuggler boats stop. Again, he would be telling Jakarta Australia is acting no more or less than how Indonesia would if the situations were reversed. Logic usually prevails in the end. I would expect that Abbott is also indicating that once the boats have stopped Australia will look at taking a set number of UN refugees from Indonesia in its humanitarian intake.

.
He'll be the winner of this award, with all the batteries that's gonna require

 

JeffDunne

TheBrownDog
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Posts
50,988
Likes
21,658
Location
Jury Duty
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
New Orleans Saints
Maybe. But I don't see realpolitic in Indonesia would be any different than here.
You kidding?

Situation is Australia has finally elected a government that is taking responsibility for stopping the people smuggler trade ...
I see a government that thinks trading off good regional relationships for domestic point scoring is a price worth paying.

If they were taking responsibility they'd be working on solutions to the underlying problem as per our international obligations.
 

GuruJane

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Posts
15,540
Likes
1,696
Location
home of the mighty sa
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hawthorn, Tottenham
You kidding?


I see a government that thinks trading off good regional relationships for domestic point scoring is a price worth paying.

If they were taking responsibility they'd be working on solutions to the underlying problem as per our international obligations.
isn't that what Labor was trying to do for 6 years?

To repeat: If Australian citizens were conducting delivering unauthorised foreign nationals to Indonesian sovereign territory we would be hearing all about it. Very loudly.
Indonesia is not being asked to do anything that it would not demand of Australia if the situation were the reverse.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Posts
8,817
Likes
7,223
AFL Club
St Kilda
isn't that what Labor was trying to do for 6 years?
Weak point.
To repeat: If Australian citizens were conducting delivering unauthorised foreign nationals to Indonesian sovereign territory we would be hearing all about it. Very loudly.
Indonesia is not being asked to do anything that it would not demand of Australia if the situation were the reverse.
Another weak point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom