Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

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GuruJane

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How is doing nothing "acquiescing" when you were already doing nothing?
Op ed on the "Doctrine of Acquiescence" by editor in chief of Jakarta Post.

On the face of it, Moeldoko seemed to be defying the government’s position of rejecting Australia’s policy. Yet, such open defiance contradicts his style and character.

....it’s more likely Moeldoko was following orders than being impudent.

Is something afoot between Jakarta and Canberra that we, even the Foreign Ministry, are unaware of?

If so, hush-hush policy rarely succeeds under this government.

Moeldoko said his statement “did not indicate that I agreed [with the policy]” and wasn’t related to foreign policy.

In the language of diplomacy, however, Moeldoko’s discussion with the Australian defense chief was an unwitting consent to the Australian initiative.

It is an undisputable fact of international law that Australia cannot send boats into Indonesian waters without permission.

By saying he “understood” Australia’s action, Moeldoko fell into the trap of the “doctrine of acquiescence” first employed under Operation Relex by the Howard government.

Diplomatic notes of notification would be sent to Jakarta just before a turn-back. A non-response, or a delayed one, was regarded by Canberra as consent.

As Howard’s former foreign minister, Alexander Downer, recently explained in The Advertiser, the boats would be “towed to the edge of Indonesia’s territorial waters under Operation Relex, 19 kilometers from the Indonesian coast”.

Hence, we can understand why Prime Minister Tony Abbott remained gleeful about the bilateral cooperation on boatpeople as “evidenced by the discussion that seemed to have taken place between Gen. Moeldoko and our own Gen. Hurley not long ago”.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...-clinker-recalcitrant-nescient-or-a-ploy.html
 

JeffDunne

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Op ed on the "Doctrine of Acquiescence" by editor in chief of Jakarta Post.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...-clinker-recalcitrant-nescient-or-a-ploy.html
Different issue.

The Indonesian government have been pretty consistent on this for some time. Do nothing but use the leverage it gives them when required. I don't see them doing anything different now (even after this latest episode).

"Acquiescing" would be actively participating in stopping the boats.

As for that article, nationalists in Indonesia will always press for their government to grow a pair and they government will continue to show pragmatism on the issue because it suits them. Most Indonesians that give shit think their country is a pushover internationally. They are a very small minority though. It doesn't matter if it's Oz, Malaysia, Singapore, the US . . . it's a consistent criticism. For the government it's water off a duck's back.

I don't see Indonesia's position changing any time soon.
 

GuruJane

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Different issue.

The Indonesian government have been pretty consistent on this for some time. Do nothing but use the leverage it gives them when required. I don't see them doing anything different now (even after this latest episode).

"Acquiescing" would be actively participating in stopping the boats.
Er not going by the definition outlined by the editor in chief of the Jakarta.

In case you missed it:

By saying he “understood” Australia’s action, Moeldoko fell into the trap of the “doctrine of acquiescence” first employed under Operation Relex by the Howard government.

Diplomatic notes of notification would be sent to Jakarta just before a turn-back. A non-response, or a delayed one, was regarded by Canberra as consent.

As Howard’s former foreign minister, Alexander Downer, recently explained in The Advertiser, the boats would be “towed to the edge of Indonesia’s territorial waters under Operation Relex, 19 kilometers from the Indonesian coast”.
Fact is, that's how Indonesia co--operated with Australia when Howard was PM under Operation Relex, and it appears to be doing exactly the same with Abbott under Operation Sovereign Borders.

In both cases the Australian PM of the time is taking responsibility for stopping the people smuggler boats and Indonesia is acquiescing. Presumably that's why it is called Doctrine of Acquiesence.
 

Xsess

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Yeh I reckon aye. They invade other countries, then expect us to take all the people fleeing. Idiots.
Glad you see it my way. They also allow thousands of economic migrants to enter their country through their airports, jump on their boats crewed by their citizens... no questions asked
 

Xsess

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You got him!
Now you should totally show how the SBS lied, to appease one side of politics! That would destroy him!

It doesn't matter that it has nothing to do with the point he made, or that you are running away while spitting! You got him good!
This goes right back to where my anti-phishing filter blocked the link he provided. Put two and two together and in the context of this discussion - there's every chance the "SBS site" might be completely bogas. And i wouldn't put it past the lunar left to fabricate asylum stats to stick the boots into good old xenophobic Oz. Whereas I quoted the minister from 2012 - "Chris Bowen" who is at least held to account when making public statements that we have one of the largest refugee resettlement programs per capita in the world (I'm aware of no-one refuting them either).

Over to you.
 

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Brown Bottle

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This goes right back to where my anti-phishing filter blocked the link he provided. Put two and two together and in the context of this discussion - there's every chance the "SBS site" might be completely bogas. And i wouldn't put it past the lunar left to fabricate asylum stats to stick the boots into good old xenophobic Oz. Whereas I quoted the minister from 2012 - "Chris Bowen" who is at least held to account when making public statements that we have one of the largest refugee resettlement programs per capita in the world (I'm aware of no-one refuting them either).

Over to you.
There is nothing wrong with the link supplied. It is bona-fide SBS site and exhibits no unusual traits. It's probably just your computer objecting to taking you to a site that isn't owned by News Ltd or operated by Michael Smith after all these years.

You put 2 + 2 together and came up with one bazillion.
 

CM86

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This goes right back to where my anti-phishing filter blocked the link he provided. Put two and two together and in the context of this discussion - there's every chance the "SBS site" might be completely bogas. And i wouldn't put it past the lunar left to fabricate asylum stats to stick the boots into good old xenophobic Oz. Whereas I quoted the minister from 2012 - "Chris Bowen" who is at least held to account when making public statements that we have one of the largest refugee resettlement programs per capita in the world (I'm aware of no-one refuting them either).

Over to you.
What??
.... What?

He stated that both sides of politics lie, and have made the situation so much worse, because it caters to xenophobia.

And you responded saying that the abc and the sbs do it...
and then you say that he fabricated this site, for a fake news story, and he is lunar?? What planet do you orbit?
 

Gough

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What??
.... What?

He stated that both sides of politics lie, and have made the situation so much worse, because it caters to xenophobia.

And you responded saying that the abc and the sbs do it...
and then you say that he fabricated this site, for a fake news story, and he is lunar?? What planet do you orbit?
I'm high a lot of the time.
 

Gough

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Tomorrow will be sixty years since Menzies signed the Refugee Convention. Traditional Liberal voters would be troubled by Abbott's and Morrison's actions.
 

Xsess

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and then you say that he fabricated this site, for a fake news story, and he is lunar?? What planet do you orbit?
I didn't accuse Gough of anything. Just said his link dinna work because my computer says its dodgy. Sorry Gough, if that was the inference you took.

So in conclusion. What we have here is an assertion by me that we have one of the best per capita refugee programs on earth. Gough disagreed citing an SBS report from 2009 saying we are further down the tables (my computer wouldn't let me see it). I quoted the immigration minister from last year (Bowen) refuting that. Gough said you cant trust Ministers, I said you cant trust the ABC nor SBS (or any other media organisation really). Both of us are right. There was no need for you to jump onboard - but you did - and that makes you a fool.
 

GuruJane

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I didn't accuse Gough of anything. Just said his link dinna work because my computer says its dodgy. Sorry Gough, if that was the inference you took.

So in conclusion. What we have here is an assertion by me that we have one of the best per capita refugee programs on earth. Gough disagreed citing an SBS report from 2009 saying we are further down the tables (my computer wouldn't let me see it). I quoted the immigration minister from last year (Bowen) refuting that. Gough said you cant trust Ministers, I said you cant trust the ABC nor SBS (or any other media organisation really). Both of us are right. There was no need for you to jump onboard - but you did - and that makes you a fool.
Gough is just BSing as they always do.

Australia has long been in the top two or three per capita at resettling refugees.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...N/2011-2012/RefugeeResettlement#_Toc310921308
 

Footy Smarts

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Gough is just BSing as they always do.

Australia has long been in the top two or three per capita at resettling refugees.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...N/2011-2012/RefugeeResettlement#_Toc310921308
You can't seriously take those numbers and claim Australia is great because of it. That only includes taking refugees from somewhere else and doesn't include settling refugees who arrive in your country. Of course that makes us look good since we basically don't allow people wanting to seek asylum to come here. That's like locking your doors and inviting 2 homeless people in for you to feed and claiming you're amazing compared to your neighbour who opens his doors to anybody who turns up and feeds 100 people that night.

Here's the list from 2011 with actual numbers of refugees going to each country:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/20/refugee-statistics-unhcr-data

Just considering westernised countries and refugees accepted per capita we're behind these countries:

Sweden 8.81 (refugees per 1000 people)
Norway 8.24
Germany 7.22
Switzerland 6.37
Austria 5.08
Canada 4.87
Netherlands 4.51
UK 4.06
Denmark 3.23
France 3.20
Ireland 2.04
Belgium 1.67
Finland 1.63
.
.
.
Australia 0.98

So we take in less than 1/8th the refugees per capita compared to Sweden and Norway. We even accept less than a quarter what the UK does. This notion that we're somehow incredibly generous is simply a lie that misrepresents figures to make us look better than we are. In reality we have a scandalously low refugee intake well behind the majority of developed nations.
 

midorigreenwood

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I've already mentioned previously...those statistics are misleading because the UN has obviously used a "one size fits all" counting method when different countries treat asylum seeker/refugees differently.

Take Germany for instance who are a popular target for asylum seekers,

Not to downplay their efforts (as they do take in lots of refugees other ways too) but a large proportion of them fail to get permanent refugee status and are stuck on temporary protection visas for years...even decades without getting deported.

That may be a reason why they have such a large hosting number of 600 thousand while Australia has only a count of 20 thousand despite having a resettlement program of 13k a year. (as in once they get citizenship/permanent residency they don't get counted)

http://www.dw.de/for-refugees-in-germany-its-a-life-of-waiting/a-17179963

Very few refugees are granted full asylum status, which means that their personal persecution by the authorities back home is recognized by the state. Most are offered only "tolerated" status in Germany.
 

GuruJane

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You can't seriously take those numbers and claim Australia is great because of it. That only includes taking refugees from somewhere else and doesn't include settling refugees who arrive in your country. Of course that makes us look good since we basically don't allow people wanting to seek asylum to come here. That's like locking your doors and inviting 2 homeless people in for you to feed and claiming you're amazing compared to your neighbour who opens his doors to anybody who turns up and feeds 100 people that night.

Here's the list from 2011 with actual numbers of refugees going to each country:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/20/refugee-statistics-unhcr-data

Just considering westernised countries and refugees accepted per capita we're behind these countries:

Sweden 8.81 (refugees per 1000 people)
Norway 8.24
Germany 7.22
Switzerland 6.37
Austria 5.08
Canada 4.87
Netherlands 4.51
UK 4.06
Denmark 3.23
France 3.20
Ireland 2.04
Belgium 1.67
Finland 1.63
.
.
.
Australia 0.98

So we take in less than 1/8th the refugees per capita compared to Sweden and Norway. We even accept less than a quarter what the UK does. This notion that we're somehow incredibly generous is simply a lie that misrepresents figures to make us look better than we are. In reality we have a scandalously low refugee intake well behind the majority of developed nations.
Australia has had for very long period one of the highest per capita rates of
resettling refugees from UN camps as citizens of this country. Suspect you know this perfectly well, Smarts.

Are you therefore saying the optimal chances of citizenship should only be available if you have serious cash resources over UN camp refugees plus the willingness to destroy your ID documents then lie and cheat your way into Australian citizenship.?

Is that what you are saying, Smarts?[/quote]
 

PottSie2

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Considering how many problems those nations have had with their refugee intake, looks like Australia has the right number in terms of being able to provide for and "trying to" integrate the current intake of refugees.
 

medusala

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Smarts

those numbers are wrong. Need to take in to account family reunion. Also how many illegal immigrants have arrived on boats in 2012 and 2013?

Interesting to note Australia returned ZERO refugees. Policy is working ever so well. Great job by the government.
 
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