Opinion Stopping small forwards

[Partridge]

I'd be willing to bet you that if Chris Scott said to Wojcinski that there was a spot for him in the team, but that his job would be to stick to Betts, or McGlynn, or Breust, or Callinan, or Fasolo like glue, he'd be able to do it. He hasn't done it, probably because he hasn't been asked to do it. How many taggers would have had any experience in that role, before coming to the AFL?

I bet you he can't. He gets in a chase with small forwards and ends up getting turned around (it's exactly what Krakouer did to him in last year's Grand Final). He was right behind him and all of a sudden on the wrong side of the goals. Doesn't know how to shepherd someone away from goals and he's not going to develop that skill now.

 

[Cosmic Energy]

It is funny over this period we do seem to have some trouble with the small forwards. Mostly I think it's a mix thing, I'm happy with the back six of say J. Hunt, Scarlett, Enright, Lonergan, Mackie, Taylor, it's just how they rotate on and off the particular players, who's hot and who's not.

I don't think Josh Hunt should play on Milne all night for example, Josh, for lack of a better word, isn't "smart" enough to play on him. There was an occasion on Fri night where Milney feigned to kick on the left from outside 50, Josh fell for it and he ran around Josh to kick on his right...I think he might have hit the post, it was a behind at least. But it's just an awareness thing, Milney isn't that great on his left from long range, so let him have it. Milne also over the years has been able to outbody Josh in marking contests....clearly not a strength thing, just a smarts thing.

Even though he kinda looked disinterested on Friday night, I always think Scarlett can play those roles quite well, the guys like Milne who are tricky and also reasonable marks. I would have liked to see him play on Milne for most of the night, Saad had a little too much zip for him, so combined with the lack of interest from Scarlo it was a bad combo And possibly he didn't rate Saad. I think he really enjoyed playing on Didak in last year's GF.

Actually come to think of it Ebert from Port is a little like Milne, got a good array of skills. If I remember correctly Hunt was playing on him and he had a couple of shots in the 2007 GF early, one courtesy of a kick out from Josh, and I remember think "Oh no this will ruin Josh's day". They did miss a few chances early, momentum is a wonderful thing....

The good news is that Milne is probably the best of the lot, he has a lot of tricks. Betts isn't as complete as Milne is, Eddie is ok on a lead, excellent crumber, but not so good in the bodying, so Josh can probably handle him. Mmmm who else to worry about, Rioli, Krakouer, Callinan, Jetta, Lindsay Thomas, Josh Hill, Garlett.

I suppose restrict the quality of crumbs, don't let them get goal side with no one in front of them....easy

 

[catempire]

If I had time I'd go through and catalogue how many goals small forwards have kicked against us in finals since 2007. I'm betting not as many as people might think.

Finals are shut down to much more contested play which doesn't suit small forwards.

While we might have been exposed to some extent in H&A, don't assume this will translate to finals.

 

[witsend]

Rioli had 10 possessions for the game and kicked 2 goals. Max Rooke had 13 possessions for the game and also kicked 2 goals. He also had 7 tackles compared to Thyril's 3. It continues to be one of the most overrated Grand Final performances ever. Enright did his job.

Absolutely. Rioli has made a career out of being a flashy inconsistent small forward with good closing speed, no tank and incredibly poor kicking skills. Left unattended he is most certainly dangerous but Rioli was NOT the reason we lost in '08! When has he last bothered us?

 

[witsend]

One thing that helped the Saints small forwards was in a very un-Geelong Way, we had too many in marking contests and allowed the ball to land behind the packs in the 3rd quarter. Happy to see us make that mistake in that game at that time. A timely reminder of a defensive fundamental.

 

[iameviljez]

Rioli had 10 possessions for the game and kicked 2 goals. Max Rooke had 13 possessions for the game and also kicked 2 goals. He also had 7 tackles compared to Thyril's 3. It continues to be one of the most overrated Grand Final performances ever. Enright did his job.

Really? Only ten touches, fine... but stats didn't tell the whole story here. Sure, it was a cameo, but in the context of the game it was important and he was a big part of why Hawthorn got up IMO.

 

[Pollywaffle]

If I had time I'd go through and catalogue how many goals small forwards have kicked against us in finals since 2007. I'm betting not as many as people might think.

Finals are shut down to much more contested play which doesn't suit small forwards.

While we might have been exposed to some extent in H&A, don't assume this will translate to finals.

Correct, the little guys seem to struggle in finals. Probably due to the style of play and how the ball comes in.

 

[iameviljez]

Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.

Mackie has had his best season at AFL level, I have no idea why you'd even consider dropping him.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand - the problem that we seem to have with small fowards is when they outdo our heavily built defenders for agility. Hunt and Scarlett are cases in point, but both are undroppable for the finals - Hunt has been playing good football, whilst to drop Scarlett would be unthinkable.

I do like the idea of Guthrie on a small forward. Guthrie's weakest point is probably when he's caught in an overhead marking contest, but I like his application and concentration; I think it could work against smaller players.

 

[Stig_90]

I think J. Hunt or Boris are fine in that role. Milne has done what he did to us last Friday night his whole career, he's one of the best small forwards of all time, and Saad is going to be a good Milne replacement. Most weeks it's not an issue and I don't think it will be in finals unless we come up against Carlton at their best.

 

[Partridge]

Really? Only ten touches, fine... but stats didn't tell the whole story here. Sure, it was a cameo, but in the context of the game it was important and he was a big part of why Hawthorn got up IMO.

He was one factor among many (Dew, Williams, Sewell, Young for the first half). They had 11 guys score goals, a much more even contribution. The main reason was when they had the play they kicked straight. When we did we missed. I knew we were in trouble before half time.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It's a fair point. In some ways this has been our most significant weakness, even when we were close to unbeatable.

But I think with the current team we can mitigate most of the risk against teams that will look to exploit us in this area.

I think we defended poorly on Friday night. Our backline is very used to, and very good at, working together and helping eachother out to prevent one-on-one marking contests. This help does not only come from the talls in Lonergan or Taylor, but down the chain to Mackie, Scarlett, Enright and Hunt. Most of the time this is an effective ploy as the direct opponents of these latter players are not too threatening, and without the opposition's key forwards firing we go a long way to winning the match.

The Saints had very little to worry us with in terms of tall forwards, particularly as Riewoldt was missing. On the flip side, they were clearly going to try to kick goals via Milne and Saad (and Schneider once activated). However our medium and small defenders continued to play their typical 'help out' game, when not so much help was needed. This mean there were countless marking contests, where a Hunt or Enright were getting sucked into the marking contest, meanwhile their man was able to stay down and hit the contest at pace. We conceded a stack of goals like this.

After the tactic was obvious, we should have stayed down on those players and continued to apply body contact to prevent their run at the contest.

The problem is the umps are obssessed with paying 'blocking' frees in a lot of those instances now.

Certainly we do have a weakness against small forwards at times although I don't think there's heaps we can do about it, particularly because we have to play a decent press to lock the ball in our half (most sides do now) but it means if the ball gets turned over there can be a lot of space the other way for opposition small forwards. The strength of the defence is working together so when we have time to set up we are often able to counter small forwards even when we don't have a man on them who is quick enough for them across the ground. Sometimes when there is space we will get hurt by small forwards and there's ot heaps we can do about it, we just have to avoid, as you point out, the avoidable instances where we send too many men to one contest etc.

I have been a critic of Josh in the past but he's playing well now and I can't see him being dropped on the eve of finals nor do I think that would remedy the problem. I would however like to see Varcoe play as a defensive runner when he comes back and I think the last few weeks with Taylor Hunt in that role has looked good. He does work hard to be accountable defensively and his run out defence helps prevent the opposition small forwards pressuring us into turnovers.

 

[supahoops]

A left field option for a couple of years (as we are in premiership mode) would be Kane Cornes. Either out of contract or has 1 year left. Would be a great option for this position as a tagging back pocket.

Maybe the could throw travis boak in n'all. The only way I see him coming..

 

[supahoops]

Sometimes it's simply impossible to stop the likes of Milne or Rioli. It really comes down to pressure further afield and the defence all working as one. That said I think we are reasonably well placed with scarlo, enright, j hunt and Guthrie coming thru. Taylor hunt could also do a job for mine. Sure they look dangerous at times but I don't think too many have had their way with us over the last few years.

 

[Berserker26]

I've raised this point 2-3 years ago, and suggested Varcoe for that reason, got jumped on.
But it is a really vital point and NM, Blues, Freo could really trouble us in that department.

This adds no value

 

[The rabbi]

Mackie is very underrated

At least by many on this board. I think that the Powers that be at Cat land think rather differently.

 

[Catsace]

Geelong has had issues with small forwards for almost as long as i've followed them! Craig Davis, Daicos, Bewick, Bartlett, the Krakouers, Brad Johnson, gee even in some cases in the 90's it was Shannon Gibson, Brad Pearce and Nathan G Brown. Mark Williams just of the Hawks with his three goals in the '08 Grand Final was probably as bad as anything else.

But as alluded to in our structure against the Saints, they had no Reiwoldt for the first time i can think of against us, and they subbed Kosi off early in the 3rd quarter. Thus taller players like Harry and Tom had less of a natural match-up, and the Saints used Saad, Schneider and Milne as their 'three Amigos' forward line. And as it was, it coincided with some profligate forward play by Geelong, when a simple set shot from 25 m out could have put them over 30 points down, and taken the wind out of their sails. It was a 12-point turnaround when Kelly's ill-fated give to Stokes was shuffled downfield for a St.Kilda goal. We were lucky that they missed plenty of set shots in the latter part of that quarter as well, but i think with stronger on-ball work and more defensive pressure, their scores dried up when we poured it in late in the game.

I guess with so many mid-sized youngsters coming in (and to be honest, a diminution of Scarlett's ability to match up with the quick smalls as his career is drawing down), it's still a bit of a state of flux as to who is the prime defensive small. I reckon someone will be groomed for that role as their position in the side solidifies, be it a T.Hunt, Guthrie or someone else. But certainly....it's never been merely a recent phenomenon.

 

[FredLeDeux]

He was tried down back, cemented his spot up forward in my eyes. played 10 times better in the forward half

Correct, good up forward, too many Kane Tenace moments down back.

 

[David the Cat]

Rioli had 10 possessions for the game and kicked 2 goals. Max Rooke had 13 possessions for the game and also kicked 2 goals. He also had 7 tackles compared to Thyril's 3. It continues to be one of the most overrated Grand Final performances ever. Enright did his job.

Good thread for the Hawk Board Partridge.....

 

[winty]

Absolutely. Rioli has made a career out of being a flashy inconsistent small forward with good closing speed, no tank and incredibly poor kicking skills. Left unattended he is most certainly dangerous but Rioli was NOT the reason we lost in '08! When has he last bothered us?

Gee, I hope Hodgepodge doesn't read that. He'll be in here reminding all and sundry that Champion Data said Cyril was the best kick in the league a couple of years ago otherwise.

 

[Partridge]

Good thread for the Hawk Board Partridge.....

Not really. It only contains facts.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I bet you he can't. He gets in a chase with small forwards and ends up getting turned around (it's exactly what Krakouer did to him in last year's Grand Final). He was right behind him and all of a sudden on the wrong side of the goals. Doesn't know how to shepherd someone away from goals and he's not going to develop that skill now.

Remembering back to THAT Hawthorn game a few weeks ago. Harry Taylor in what looked like a completely futile chase-down of Cyril Rioli. What happened? Harry ended up getting between Cyril and the goals, and made him second-guess what would have been a certain goal for Hawthorn.

I hope Chris Scott & his staff have an endless loop of that footage, because it was BRILLIANT.

 

[topic97]

Meh, according to specialists if Cecil comes back even for the grand final he will be playing injured, so all we need to do is give the hawks a taste of their own medicine and meet him with a good joshy hunt hip and shoulder & he will have the red vest on!

He isn't that dangerous against us anyway, and tbh I think you are going to see a very different hawthorn when(if) Franklin comes back.

I honestly think their current dominance has to do with his absence, they are a lot harder to predict who the ball is going to without him and as a consequence look a lot better.

 

[CatsBack2Back]

Maybe Wells might find us another gem here

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/145467/default.aspx

 

[thenighthawk]

It's a considered trade-off in my mind.

So much of the Geelong game plan is based around attacking play out of defence and fast transition, that the risk of a small forward getting off the chain is minimal compared to the necessity for that offensive play out of our backline. And an opposition small forward having a big day isn't game over either, it's just a backwards step.

 

[Sttew]

Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.

Wash your mouth out with soap! Mackie miss out? He has been very consistent and has to be a starter unless injured, IMO