Stopping the Tigers 2020

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
But that isn't what the team wants to do, if you can get the ball you do and if you can't then you make plans on how to combat that. You are kidding yourself if you don't think you would be a better side winning clearances, I'd lock in 3-4 flags in a row if they could.
Well we are doing ok and not necessarily finished yet. But you don't want to address the stats that Wallaby showed, so no point really.
 

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
It's auskick level shit we are talking about here, you try and win the ball and if you can't you work out how you can get it back from the opposition. Truly mind boggling that you would believe guys like Cotchin and Martin want their opponents to get the ball so they can tackle them and hope to effect their possession rather then just win the ball outright.
Nobody is saying we want the opposition to get it, but as has been pointed out, clearances don't mean much in a game of footy win lose wise. But on occasions like when Fyfe is on because he is too goo, or when you can't stop Cripps because he is just too big and strong and you don't have the personnel to stop him, you find a way to nullify that. Richmond have drafted two big inside players with their first picks in the last two drafts, so maybe they agree with you in part.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Skull Face

All Australian
Aug 27, 2019
609
584
AFL Club
Carlton
Well we are doing ok and not necessarily finished yet. But you don't want to address the stats that Wallaby showed, so no point really.
I made a quick little comment and have regretted it ever since as a horde of over excited tigers fans want to jump up to take offense, most overly sensitive insecure supporter base going around. If Wallaby didn't quote me I am not reading it, couldn't get away from this thread and the muppets in it fast enough.
 

Tiger71

🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 King of the Micro 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
Sep 22, 2011
18,875
59,683
AFL Club
Richmond
Play nice. Play the ball, and not the man. The board rules are clear. If you can't argue with some decorum, your ability to post will be removed from threads.
Fair enough.

For the record. Simply winning first possession ( clearance ) is not enough. Hardwick has developed a method for being first at regaining possession. Simply because, once possession is regained, its generally either in space or with less pressure applied, hence why our midfield concentrates on being elite in that stat and have been elite in that stat in the past 2 and a half years.

The reason, if you win the contested ball, 90% of the time you are under immense pressure and more often then not you will turn it over. That is why players like pendles are worth there weight in gold, as they can create space from the contest with apparent ease but they are rare as hen's teeth. Also the tiger game plan is not based on stoppage, we are a low possession side, we love the ball always in flow.

The team as a whole happily concede the first possession in a stoppage or center clearance, more often then not we go in with only 1 midfielder or 2 at most in the inside, we much prefer to have an outnumber surrounding the contest so when its regained, as its often the case as we are top 1 or 2 in the league we are off.

Hope that explains why just simply winning the first ball is NOT the easy way to beat the tigers. The easy way to beat us is to rob us of our turnover game. Pies did it wonderfully last year with the keeping's off and instead of kicking long once they won a clearance they actually managed to use short kicks/handballs to feed a receiver who was normally protected with a blocker to push our outliers to far outside.

When it works its our kryptonite but thankfully Hardwick looked like he adjusted to that as well last year too.
 

Ceehook

Team Captain
Oct 3, 2017
437
1,162
AFL Club
Richmond
Geelong had something similar running for a couple of seasons , almost concede first possession but pressure it and win back on the outside

the trouble is there are a lot of super talented players in most teams that can thread the eye of the needle and hit targets outside that pressure ring
if the pressure at the contest isnt upto scratch or the ring isnt well formed or quick to react its quickly picked apart

it comes down to execution and we've executed pretty well over the last 3 years

when the Hawks were on their 3 peat the football world was marvelling at their patience and foot skills as they would systematically pick defensive zones apart , but they could also move the ball super fast and clean they were far from one dimensional and they executed many facets of the game really well

if someone had a time worp machine and pitted the Hawks at their best versus us from the last 2.5 years it would be a mouth watering contest
 

juss

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 23, 2009
18,486
23,433
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
New York Jets
Can I bookmark this post? A Richmond fan on BF with absolute honesty, claiming that Collingwood of all teams were better than Richmond on game day and an admission that Richmond got shown up!? Not many admit this.

Not even I would admit this, as good as the Pies were that night the tiges were clearly off the boil. Would they have beaten Collingwood that night if they weren't? Each way bet.
Never admit this. It was coming out of Dave Astbury like lava. Like lava mate.
 

telsor

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2004
31,138
28,828
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Habs
Can I bookmark this post? A Richmond fan on BF with absolute honesty, claiming that Collingwood of all teams were better than Richmond on game day and an admission that Richmond got shown up!? Not many admit this.

Not even I would admit this, as good as the Pies were that night the tiges were clearly off the boil. Would they have beaten Collingwood that night if they weren't? Each way bet.

I think Richmond had been flat for a while...at least 2 months, perhaps even the second half of the season. They had been gradually improving but still didn't seem quite 'right'.

I ALSO think that a injury and illness had a particularly bad effect in that game and several important players were well down (and perhaps shouldn't have played) as a result.

Added to that, I believe Collingwood played very well that night.



No game is decided by one factor, and I think all of these (and more) contributed to the loss.
 

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
I made a quick little comment and have regretted it ever since as a horde of over excited tigers fans want to jump up to take offense, most overly sensitive insecure supporter base going around. If Wallaby didn't quote me I am not reading it, couldn't get away from this thread and the muppets in it fast enough.
Your quick little comment was always going to attract criticism because it was pretty sensational. Richmond have a 'shithouse midfield'... What dual Premiership side has ever had that thrown at it.
 

Lsta062

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 15, 2014
12,074
24,182
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Chelsea
As Richmond are the worst clearance team in the competition in 2019– yet still win the premiership; wouldn’t it show that focusing on clearances isn’t effective in beating the Tigers??
That’s what I would say too. You’d probably be better focusing on something that was pivotal in us winning a Premiership than a metric we trailed the entire competition on.

Post-clearance pressure and tackling was a big factor in our success in the last 3 years.
 

RobR

Premiership Player
Sep 16, 2014
3,827
9,504
AFL Club
Carlton
Yes but you need to make an argument that is based on evidence. Not just quote a stat that has shown to not mean much, see Wallaby's post at 3:42pm.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't say i agree with him, but he picked out a stat that he thought Richmond were weak on. It's Richmonds pressure game other teams have to stop.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Capriati

Club Legend
Aug 25, 2019
1,249
1,921
AFL Club
West Coast
I think Richmond had been flat for a while...at least 2 months, perhaps even the second half of the season. They had been gradually improving but still didn't seem quite 'right'.

I ALSO think that a injury and illness had a particularly bad effect in that game and several important players were well down (and perhaps shouldn't have played) as a result.

Added to that, I believe Collingwood played very well that night.

No game is decided by one factor, and I think all of these (and more) contributed to the loss.
Seem like Tigers are willing and able to rationalise and find reasons to explain their downturn in form at the end of 2018. However, when it comes to the Eagles in 2019 they are all "blah blah blah, Eagles aren't a threat in 2020, see their last month in 2019 for proof, blah blah blah".
 

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
Don't get me wrong, i didn't say i agree with him, but he picked out a stat that he thought Richmond were weak on. It's Richmonds pressure game other teams have to stop.
Yes my comment was directed at Skull Face, and if he had phrased it better then most wouldn't have reacted. And it is a stat we either don't hold with much regard, or are as you say not very good at. As has been pointed out, you'd probably take first possession if you could but not necessarily if your strengths are better used elsewhere. Very few first possession players actually hurt you. As has been mentioned Neale had 55 pretty average possessions, but Prestia's 30 in that game were far more effective. Players that dish off in the traffic are not play creative usually makers. Cripps is one who is because he can get his hands free due to his size, Fyfe is similar. Under pressure they don't hurt as much which is Richmond's philosophy I think. These players are rare, and we don't have one at Richmond. Cotchin has done it before, but he is far more effective these days when he is not diving into packs. Martin has the strength but is wasted as a first possession player because you want him in a bit of space. Prestia mops up so many hard ball spills because he is already at ground level and is so strong over the ball that he is very hard to tackle, a bit like Sam Mitchell or Diesel Williams in his day. So first possession is not the all it seems.

Having said that we drafted Riley Collier Dawkins who is 193cm and 90+ and Jack Ross who is 188 and 90kg and with our first 2 picks in last years draft, so maybe they want to do something about it.
 
Last edited:

Mister M

Club Legend
Oct 16, 2016
1,589
1,833
AFL Club
Richmond
Seem like Tigers are willing and able to rationalise and find reasons to explain their downturn in form at the end of 2018. However, when it comes to the Eagles in 2019 they are all "blah blah blah, Eagles aren't a threat in 2020, see their last month in 2019 for proof, blah blah blah".
.... I’ll respond to you with the same information I said to you last weekend.

In 2018 even when being ‘Flag’ Richmond had won 8 in a row going into the PF & only lost 2 games after the bye. The 2018 Richmond side showed that they were still able to win despite the challenges they faced late in the season, were able to ‘Fix’ those issues going into the 2019 season (A healthy Martin & Astbury, recruiting Lynch, etc). Richmond then faced new internal challenges through injury, position changes, etc. but we’re able to adjust on the go leading to their dominate run in the back end of 2019.

The West Coast Eagles lost 3 of their last 4 games in 2019! It’s not a ‘one-off’ bad performance, that’s multiple losses. As we’ve discussed previously; despite what others say I believe that both the WCE/Rich & WCE/Geel games at the ‘G showed that the Eagles are starting to be figured out.

But instead of whinging about #VICBIAS, ‘arrogant’ Richmond supporters & how bad we are— how about you provide some insight into why West Coast is an actual threat?

I ask— what has changed between 2019 & 2020 to fix the issues the Eagles defence had late in the year against key forwards???
 

Tenny

🏆🏆
Suspended
Jan 7, 2020
806
1,570
AFL Club
Richmond
Seem like Tigers are willing and able to rationalise and find reasons to explain their downturn in form at the end of 2018. However, when it comes to the Eagles in 2019 they are all "blah blah blah, Eagles aren't a threat in 2020, see their last month in 2019 for proof, blah blah blah".
Richmond were minor premiers in 2018. West Coast finished 5th in 2019. Therein lies the difference.
 

Capriati

Club Legend
Aug 25, 2019
1,249
1,921
AFL Club
West Coast
.... I’ll respond to you with the same information I said to you last weekend.

In 2018 even when being ‘Flag’ Richmond had won 8 in a row going into the PF & only lost 2 games after the bye. The 2018 Richmond side showed that they were still able to win despite the challenges they faced late in the season, were able to ‘Fix’ those issues going into the 2019 season (A healthy Martin & Astbury, recruiting Lynch, etc). Richmond then faced new internal challenges through injury, position changes, etc. but we’re able to adjust on the go leading to their dominate run in the back end of 2019.

The West Coast Eagles lost 3 of their last 4 games in 2019! It’s not a ‘one-off’ bad performance, that’s multiple losses. As we’ve discussed previously; despite what others say I believe that both the WCE/Rich & WCE/Geel games at the ‘G showed that the Eagles are starting to be figured out.

But instead of whinging about #VICBIAS, ‘arrogant’ Richmond supporters & how bad we are— how about you provide some insight into why West Coast is an actual threat?

I ask— what has changed between 2019 & 2020 to fix the issues the Eagles defence had late in the year against key forwards???
1) It wasn't just the PF that tigers were off their game and Tiger fans make way too much of Astbury/Martin. Many plays have spoken about the downturn of form in the month leading in to 2018 finals series.
2) All the points you make are made with the benefit of hindsight. I.e you are looking back at the changes that Richmond made now after the season is complete and then saying to me "Eagles weren't very good at the end of 19 so I'm going to assume that end of 2019 eagles is the same as 2020 eagles". It demonstrates a lack of being able to look at a team and objectively measure it's strengths and weaknesses. If your only ability to read and analyse a team is after the fact, that is an extremely low level skill.
3) In terms of improvement from Eagles. Kennedy will be better in 2020 than in 2019 after having a full preseason. Natainui is fit and will give mids first use. Tim Kelly in midfield and being able to rotate through HFF. Barrass was playing with a busted hand in last month of 2019.

Richmond were minor premiers in 2018. West Coast finished 5th in 2019. Therein lies the difference.
That shows your ignorance. Someone who knows anyone about football is able to say "team A finished in x spot in 2019, but due ABC improvements it could potentially see them moving up/contending".

You inability to engage in any meaningful discussion about a teams future prospects show that you are nothing but a groupie.

Do you mind if book mark this and we revisit it after you guys come to Optus in round 6?

We can revisit our posts then and see how things turned ;)
 
Last edited:

Muddiemoose

🏆🏆
Aug 24, 2017
4,156
20,232
AFL Club
Richmond
The problem with just looking at a stat like clearance numbers is that it assumes that all clearances are equal and result in either a clean position by a teammate or a scoring shot

Generally a clearance is a rushed kick or handball to clear the ball out of a very congested area Richmond forced a rushed kick that generally results in either a turn over or a constested ball situation basically making the clearance pointless

very odd stat to focus on
 

Capriati

Club Legend
Aug 25, 2019
1,249
1,921
AFL Club
West Coast
As Richmond are the worst clearance team in the competition in 2019– yet still win the premiership; wouldn’t it show that focusing on clearances isn’t effective in beating the Tigers??
Great analysis, bunny :saracasm:

It shows the opposite. It shows that Tigers game plan isn't built around winning clearances. Also shows a blueprint to hurt them on the scoreboard. Win clearances, and move the ball forward quickly and precisely. We have seen teams do this to Richmond and get on top of them, even during their 12 game winning streak. Easier said than done, however we have seen teams do this for periods of time:

West Coast in Round 22
Brisbane QF
Geelong PF

West Coast tore Richmond apart in the first quarter, Geelong was well on top for majority of the first half, even after they conceded 3 goals, and Brisbane was wasteful with their chances in front of goal early and that kept the Tigers closer than they should have been at QT.
 

Mister M

Club Legend
Oct 16, 2016
1,589
1,833
AFL Club
Richmond
1) It wasn't just the PF that tigers were off their game and Tiger fans make way too much of Astbury/Martin. Many plays have spoken about the downturn of form in the month leading in to 2018 finals series.
What you keep ignoring is-- leading into the 2018 Prelim the out of form Richmond side were still able to win games. In fact they had won their past 7; despite not being at their best. That's what the top teams do; they find a way to win even when not playing their best football. In comparison to that; West Coast has lost 3 out of their last 4 games of the 2019 season. West Coast's end to 2019 is significantly worse than Richmond's end to 2018 IMO.

2) All the points you make are made with the benefit of hindsight. I.e you are looking back at the changes that Richmond made now after the season is complete and then saying to me "Eagles weren't very good at the end of 19 so I'm going to assume that end of 2019 eagles is the same as 2020 eagles". It demonstrates a lack of being able to look at a team and objectively measure it's strengths and weaknesses. If your only ability to read and analyse a team is after the fact, that is an extremely low level skill.
My observations about West Coast late in the season weren't done with hindsight; they were originally made while AT games during the 2019 season. During the Richmond/WCE game I observed two key things; which I've said repeatedly across multiple threads for the past four months:
  • West Coast's backline wasn't prepared to work hard to stop tall marking forwards--Lynch, Riewoldt & Soldo all had marks inside 50 that were very easy due to lack of defensive pressure that day.
  • That West Coast's momentum relies on their quick smalls getting involved in the play (Ryan, Rioli, Cripps, etc.). If they aren't getting involved in the play, West Coasts ball movement wasn't particularly damaging that day.
Then when I was watching WCE/Geel with a few Geelong supporting friends I mentioned these two observations and we noticed the exact same thing in the semi final.
  • West Coast were 30 points down & half way into the second quarter until Liam Ryan had his first disposal. Remembering that Willie Rioli was missing from this game. When Liam Ryan finally got involved in the game the Eagles were able to be competitive; until Ryan lost all interest in the game in the fourth quarter (like most of the Eagles team from memory)
  • Tom Hawkins & Esava Ratugolea absolutely dominated the WCE defence that night. It was the first time in Esava's career that he had kicked 3 goals in a game. There was multiple times where the Eagles defensive group didn't even contest the mark.

As I said earlier; these observations are what I'm basing my 2020 prediction for the Eagles on; because they didn't show much in the last games I watched of them [and let's not even talk about the Eagles/Hawks game]

3) In terms of improvement from Eagles. Kennedy will be better in 2020 than in 2019 after having a full preseason. Natainui is fit and will give mids first use. Tim Kelly in midfield and being able to rotate through HFF. Barrass was playing with a busted hand in last month of 2019.
This is the type of information that contributes to conversation-- in particular with Barrass. Hopefully [for the Eagles sake] that he is a better player following it.

Do you mind if book mark this and we revisit it after you guys come to Optus in round 6?

We can revisit our posts then and see how things turned ;)

*Round 5 ;)

If you want to brag about results in April-- go ahead.

But Premierships are won in September & based off how both clubs fared in September in 2019; I know which club I'd prefer to be supporting.
 

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
Seem like Tigers are willing and able to rationalise and find reasons to explain their downturn in form at the end of 2018. However, when it comes to the Eagles in 2019 they are all "blah blah blah, Eagles aren't a threat in 2020, see their last month in 2019 for proof, blah blah blah".
Think you might be generalising a bit there. Most posters have you up and about this year, maybe they have some question marks, maybe not, that can be said of all sides. One poster in thought you were a 5-8 side.
 

Capriati

Club Legend
Aug 25, 2019
1,249
1,921
AFL Club
West Coast
What you keep ignoring is-- leading into the 2018 Prelim the out of form Richmond side were still able to win games. In fact they had won their past 7; despite not being at their best. That's what the top teams do; they find a way to win even when not playing their best football. In comparison to that; West Coast has lost 3 out of their last 4 games of the 2019 season. West Coast's end to 2019 is significantly worse than Richmond's end to 2018 IMO.
When you boil it down, it is exactly the same thing. A team that was expected to do well underperformed and didn't end up winning the flag.


My observations about West Coast late in the season weren't done with hindsight; they were originally made while AT games during the 2019 season. During the Richmond/WCE game I observed two key things; which I've said repeatedly across multiple threads for the past four months:
  • West Coast's backline wasn't prepared to work hard to stop tall marking forwards--Lynch, Riewoldt & Soldo all had marks inside 50 that were very easy due to lack of defensive pressure that day.
  • That West Coast's momentum relies on their quick smalls getting involved in the play (Ryan, Rioli, Cripps, etc.). If they aren't getting involved in the play, West Coasts ball movement wasn't particularly damaging that day.
I wouldn't disagree with this. But I disagree about it being the whole backline. Barrass had a mare that day and made rookie errors resulting in at least 2 goals being kicked on him. I would say Barrass' form affected the backline more than I would say the whole backline caved in under pressure, which I think is what you are saying.

And yes, I agree, West Coast is a team that wins games with great ball movement in their front half. Which is why the prospect of a fit Nicnat and TK in the midfield is such an exciting prospect for West Coast in 2020. If you have a team like west coast who can be scintillating with the ball in their front half, and then add players (Nic Nat & TK) that provide more opportunity for the game to be played in your front half it would be reasonable to be bullish about the eagles in 2020.

Then when I was watching WCE/Geel with a few Geelong supporting friends I mentioned these two observations and we noticed the exact same thing in the semi final.
  • West Coast were 30 points down & half way into the second quarter until Liam Ryan had his first disposal. Remembering that Willie Rioli was missing from this game. When Liam Ryan finally got involved in the game the Eagles were able to be competitive; until Ryan lost all interest in the game in the fourth quarter (like most of the Eagles team from memory)
  • Tom Hawkins & Esava Ratugolea absolutely dominated the WCE defence that night. It was the first time in Esava's career that he had kicked 3 goals in a game. There was multiple times where the Eagles defensive group didn't even contest the mark.
Yeah, I don't have too much to say about this game. Started flat and slow, got in to the game and looked the better team going in to the last quarter, then looked like we ran out of petrol tickets.

*Round 5 ;)

If you want to brag about results in April-- go ahead.
But Premierships are won in September & based off how both clubs fared in September in 2019; I know which club I'd prefer to be supporting.
Sounds like you already have the West Coast v Richmond game marked in your calendar ;)
 

Grrr

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2009
4,638
9,788
AFL Club
Richmond
Great analysis, bunny :saracasm:

It shows the opposite. It shows that Tigers game plan isn't built around winning clearances. Also shows a blueprint to hurt them on the scoreboard. Win clearances, and move the ball forward quickly and precisely. We have seen teams do this to Richmond and get on top of them, even during their 12 game winning streak. Easier said than done, however we have seen teams do this for periods of time:

West Coast in Round 22
Brisbane QF
Geelong PF

West Coast tore Richmond apart in the first quarter, Geelong was well on top for majority of the first half, even after they conceded 3 goals, and Brisbane was wasteful with their chances in front of goal early and that kept the Tigers closer than they should have been at QT.
It's not like Richmond are unbeatable. Maybe a few % above the other top sides. What successful sides have is a slight mental edge overall, but of course they can be beaten and will be by better sides on the day. Winning Premierships tis all about timing your run and hoping you don't come up against a side on an equal run of form. 2018 could have gone either way due to 2 very evenly matched sides and both hitting their peak at the same time. Hence a knife edge game as opposed to this year where Richmond played 2 inexperienced sides in Brisbane and GWS, and were good enough to get over the line against Geelong who weren't quite good enough.
 

Top Bottom