Stopping the Tigers 2020

Forward Press

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You might be right about McGovern bot being the most athletic but geez he reads the play well and is so good overhead. Plus I was wrong, saw today that he is moving ok and should be right for R1 or at least early in the season. I think WC are the big danger this year.
If Barrass and the other KPDs don't improve from last year, though, difficult to see how we can stop teams scoring as much as we'd like. As Squiggle has testified to, defences win flags.

A team like Richmond with Lynch and Riewoldt would continue to pose problems if the backs continue to struggle and the midfield doesn't apply pressure.
 

Carringbush2010

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I guess I don't understand what you mean by 'swarm' and your understanding of how the teams win that possession that gets the ball free.

The Tigers have been explained multiple times in this thread by different posters.

The Pies play a more inside game with a less chaotic breakaway from contests.

That's my understanding of the differences.
The swarm is basically outnumber at any contest, and then are looking for outside transition. Having an outnumber inside gives them time to deliver to a team mate in space - swarm and spread. It's a suffocation of the opposition at every contest and then have numbers in space, difficult to defeat and equally taxing to execute. This is the 2018 model.

Can it defeat the tigs?, remains to be seen as the two tig losses (the pf and rd 2 2019) the tigers were in poor form. A firing tigs I'd like to see against this system to test it. We saw it in 2018 only for the pies to go down in rotation - game over.

Both teams in their prime form have yet to be tested against each other IMO. Would be interesting.
 

Dr Tigris

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The swarm is basically outnumber at any contest, and then are looking for outside transition. Having an outnumber inside gives them time to deliver to a team mate in space - swarm and spread. It's a suffocation of the opposition at every contest and then have numbers in space, difficult to defeat and equally taxing to execute. This is the 2018 model.

Can it defeat the tigs?, remains to be seen as the two tig losses (the pf and rd 2 2019) the tigers were in poor form. A firing tigs I'd like to see against this system to test it. We saw it in 2018 only for the pies to go down in rotation - game over.

Both teams in their prime form have yet to be tested against each other IMO. Would be interesting.
OK, interesting.

The tigers set up with usually only one or two players inside and try to have an outnumber within 3-5 meters of the contest. So it is fairly typical that the Tigers have fewer players in an actual contest, and so usually lose them. But what they do is play to create a genuine contest and cause dirty ball coming out from the contest. Then our outside/around the contest structures come into play.

We see that winning the contest is almost irrelevant, it's what you do next that matters. So we have used Cotchin, Graham, Ross etc as our core on the ground wrestling for the ball players. Their job is far more about making the contest 'dirty' then winning it. Hyper pressure and physicality to ensure that the opposition can't get an nice smooth transition from the contest. When that doesn't work it's game over for the Tigers. You'll also see guys like Prestia/Edwards go into contests and do the same type of thing. So someone like Cotchin, who is truly an elite player, 'sacrifices' his game to create the platform for the rest of our game. Cause Cotch is so damn good he forces teams to have that outnumber and then that leads to us winning the next ball. Very much something a normal footballer doesn't do.

So if the Pies go high numbers inside the contest that works to our advantage, unless they get clean extraction and first ball moment - then we're in massive trouble. We've been recruiting players that can do that monster inside mid role, and can burst from the stoppage if necessary. They create that pressure defensively, and offensively, forcing teams to commit to our game plan.

By what you are saying the Pies style is an attempt to get the same benefits as the Tigers style, but at the cost of having the 'over commit' to the contest and movement from the stoppage. So the Pies swarm relies on winning contested ball and getting clean movement for it to work. If that doesn't happen then they are exposed outside and will be cut to shreds even more than the Tigers will if their plan doesn't work.

Same same but different.

Thanks, good discussion. I learnt something.
 

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Ok Boomer

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.... I’ll respond to you with the same information I said to you last weekend.

In 2018 even when being ‘Flag’ Richmond had won 8 in a row going into the PF & only lost 2 games after the bye. The 2018 Richmond side showed that they were still able to win despite the challenges they faced late in the season, were able to ‘Fix’ those issues going into the 2019 season (A healthy Martin & Astbury, recruiting Lynch, etc). Richmond then faced new internal challenges through injury, position changes, etc. but we’re able to adjust on the go leading to their dominate run in the back end of 2019.

The West Coast Eagles lost 3 of their last 4 games in 2019! It’s not a ‘one-off’ bad performance, that’s multiple losses. As we’ve discussed previously; despite what others say I believe that both the WCE/Rich & WCE/Geel games at the ‘G showed that the Eagles are starting to be figured out.
Pretty big call about a game you won by under a goal at home which was played in largely favourable conditions.

All that game confirmed is that both teams at their best (which we weren't for most of 2019 quite frankly.) are pretty close, and that the dry suits us and the wet suits you. As a spectacle I loved that game, the vastly different styles, the change in conditions.
 

master bate

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1. Their forward line:

Pretty much you're going to need 3 excellent one on one defenders to contain Lynch, Riewoldt and Martin and then a lot of discipline and organisation to control who flies in the air and who stays down. Plus good ball use to not give them second chances.

2. Their back line:

They are so good at pressuring up the field and then creating a loose man behind the ball. It was Rance and now it's Grimes. I think you need to tag Grimes with an opponent who can beat him for smarts and worry him with size or contested ability, all whilst staying disciplined to tag a defender and know they won't always be in play. Just putting your regular full forward or anyone but the very best goal kickers playing their natural game won't work.

3. Midfield

Step 1 is being fit and quick enough to run with them. They've got most of the competition beat before they turn up because even if they are level at half time they know the game opens up in the second half and they'll run all over sides.

Step 2 is maintaining shape around the contest so they don't find the space to run in to.

Step 3 is how to get the right ball movement at the right time. Take the short controlled possession kicks when you can to stop their midfield folding back. Take the long down the line - they don't have a McGovern at CHB - when you need to and have it set up. But also take the risks and run and carry and use the corridor if you get the chances.
 

Tenny

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Pretty big call about a game you won by under a goal at home which was played in largely favourable conditions.

All that game confirmed is that both teams at their best (which we weren't for most of 2019 quite frankly.) are pretty close, and that the dry suits us and the wet suits you. As a spectacle I loved that game, the vastly different styles, the change in conditions.
It was dry for a half. The dry suits us just fine. We almost overturned your first quarter lead by half time in the dry, and arguably should’ve given we sprayed a few sitters.

Having a game plan that only stands up in the wet is pretty stupid just quietly.
 

Vassp

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The swarm is basically outnumber at any contest, and then are looking for outside transition. Having an outnumber inside gives them time to deliver to a team mate in space - swarm and spread. It's a suffocation of the opposition at every contest and then have numbers in space, difficult to defeat and equally taxing to execute. This is the 2018 model.

Can it defeat the tigs?, remains to be seen as the two tig losses (the pf and rd 2 2019) the tigers were in poor form. A firing tigs I'd like to see against this system to test it. We saw it in 2018 only for the pies to go down in rotation - game over.

Both teams in their prime form have yet to be tested against each other IMO. Would be interesting.
This is one educated post
 

VicBased

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It was dry for a half. The dry suits us just fine. We almost overturned your first quarter lead by half time in the dry, and arguably should’ve given we sprayed a few sitters.

Having a game plan that only stands up in the wet is pretty stupid just quietly.
Actually just finished watching the game and it started raining early in the second quarter.
 

Ok Boomer

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It was dry for a half. The dry suits us just fine. We almost overturned your first quarter lead by half time in the dry, and arguably should’ve given we sprayed a few sitters.

Having a game plan that only stands up in the wet is pretty stupid just quietly.
Well I never said that one game plan or the other “only stands up in the wet”.
 

Tenny

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Actually just finished watching the game and it started raining early in the second quarter.
No it didn’t lol. I was at the game. Tell me the exact point in the second quarter where you think it starts raining and I’ll watch it. Read any review of the game and they say it starts raining after half time.
 

DontArgue4

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Actually just finished watching the game and it started raining early in the second quarter.
hahah literally watched this game the other day and it didnt start raining until mid-late in the second

by then we had already pegged the lead back and if anything the wet stopped us taking the lead as we wasted several easy chances
 

Grrr

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Actually just finished watching the game and it started raining early in the second quarter.
I don't know why WC seem to think the rain suited us so much. We were in control in the second Q and 9 pts behind when it started raining. From memory WC hit the front late in the final Q before making some basic blunders which we capitalised on. So effectively the second half of the game was played in shocking conditions and was an arm wrestle which we just pipped you in. The rain kept the game even.
 

Carringbush2010

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OK, interesting.

The tigers set up with usually only one or two players inside and try to have an outnumber within 3-5 meters of the contest. So it is fairly typical that the Tigers have fewer players in an actual contest, and so usually lose them. But what they do is play to create a genuine contest and cause dirty ball coming out from the contest. Then our outside/around the contest structures come into play.

We see that winning the contest is almost irrelevant, it's what you do next that matters. So we have used Cotchin, Graham, Ross etc as our core on the ground wrestling for the ball players. Their job is far more about making the contest 'dirty' then winning it. Hyper pressure and physicality to ensure that the opposition can't get an nice smooth transition from the contest. When that doesn't work it's game over for the Tigers. You'll also see guys like Prestia/Edwards go into contests and do the same type of thing. So someone like Cotchin, who is truly an elite player, 'sacrifices' his game to create the platform for the rest of our game. Cause Cotch is so damn good he forces teams to have that outnumber and then that leads to us winning the next ball. Very much something a normal footballer doesn't do.

So if the Pies go high numbers inside the contest that works to our advantage, unless they get clean extraction and first ball moment - then we're in massive trouble. We've been recruiting players that can do that monster inside mid role, and can burst from the stoppage if necessary. They create that pressure defensively, and offensively, forcing teams to commit to our game plan.

By what you are saying the Pies style is an attempt to get the same benefits as the Tigers style, but at the cost of having the 'over commit' to the contest and movement from the stoppage. So the Pies swarm relies on winning contested ball and getting clean movement for it to work. If that doesn't happen then they are exposed outside and will be cut to shreds even more than the Tigers will if their plan doesn't work.

Same same but different.

Thanks, good discussion. I learnt something.
That's exactly how I view the two teams in their differences, one could argue that's a reasonably accurate summation you've put up here. I'll add one thing, it seems the pies (2018) pre empted winning the ball at contest and structured on that presumption, win the ball and have waiting numbers on the outside allowing smooth transition.

I'd speculate both teams have an edge over most of the comp based on their suffocation game - the Pies have more of an achilles heel no less on face value though.

How they tweak their game from 2019 to this year remains to be seen and can it stop the tigers? Maybe the style from the previous year, but I doubt they could with trying to control transition after winning the ball, it just invited pressure because the spread was too far and wide for reasons unknown to me.
 

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nineteen eighty

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I think clearance statistics (as recorded in the AFL) is not a significant statistic at all.

Richmond were the worst clearance team in the competition - only winning the clearance count in 5 out of 25 games.
Geelong finished on top (level with Richmond) - won 11 clearance counts and lost 12. In their 3 finals, they won the clearances in both games they lost, and drew in the final they won.
Brisbane finished 2nd (equal with Geelong and Richmond) - and won 13 clearance counts out of 24. OK - pretty good, right? They won the clearances in their last 3 games (Rd 23 and finals) - and lost all 3 games.
Collingwood finished 4th, and won 9 out of 24 clearance counts.
The team that won the clearances in the highest % of their games was Port Adelaide. Adelaide was 2nd.

In 2018, Richmond were even more dominant through the season (up to the PF) and their clearance stats were even worse than 2019.

Clearances are a rather useless stat in assessing who is winning the game. There is basically no correlation.
Clearances are the rope-a-dope of the afl.
Clearly. Lol
I can't be convinced until David King tells me so.
 

juss

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I reckon the stopping the Tigers thing is a bit overstated. Yes, been the best team across the last 3 years, won the most flags, finals and games in that time. But by the 4th year surely via organic growth or via someone else evolving their playstyle or simply via inevitable change Id be suprised if we can stay at the absolute top without someone else overtaking.

Even as one of the top favourites, its still mathematically more probably the flag comes from 17 teams vs 1. Im not even sure we are the best individual chance of 2020.
 

RobR

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I reckon the stopping the Tigers thing is a bit overstated. Yes, been the best team across the last 3 years, won the most flags, finals and games in that time. But by the 4th year surely via organic growth or via someone else evolving their playstyle or simply via inevitable change Id be suprised if we can stay at the absolute top without someone else overtaking.

Even as one of the top favourites, its still mathematically more probably the flag comes from 17 teams vs 1. Im not even sure we are the best individual chance of 2020.
Good post, as you said sooner or later another team has to come up with the goods, it always happens. With the Tigers age profile i think they are clear favourites this year and some teams should make inroads next year.
 

DanWCE

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I don't know why WC seem to think the rain suited us so much. We were in control in the second Q and 9 pts behind when it started raining. From memory WC hit the front late in the final Q before making some basic blunders which we capitalised on. So effectively the second half of the game was played in shocking conditions and was an arm wrestle which we just pipped you in. The rain kept the game even.
We played appallingly in most damp/wet games in 2019. A predominantly kicking and marking game is hard to execute flawlessly in the wet, particularly against a side who is happy to run the ball, handball, and generally work it forwards in any way imaginable.

They often say wet weather becomes a territory game and we struggle to adapt to that. I don't think anyone here is suggesting you play better in the wet, merely that we suck at it which is an advantage to our oppo.

As for the arguments about when exactly it started raining in the second quarter, ******* lol. Who cares?
 

Grrr

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We played appallingly in most damp/wet games in 2019. A predominantly kicking and marking game is hard to execute flawlessly in the wet, particularly against a side who is happy to run the ball, handball, and generally work it forwards in any way imaginable.

They often say wet weather becomes a territory game and we struggle to adapt to that. I don't think anyone here is suggesting you play better in the wet, merely that we suck at it which is an advantage to our oppo.

As for the arguments about when exactly it started raining in the second quarter, ******* lol. Who cares?
Well we do play the wet well, but you also played well. Even contest when you look at it. Sort of irrelevant now though.
 

Tiger71

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Actually just finished watching the game and it started raining early in the second quarter.
I was at the game ,it was spitting half way through the second for like 2 minutes , they even say that during the game, but came down during the half time break. I remember this clearly as I am a fat campaigner and the rain ruined my pie :(
 

JayJ20

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Mmmmmnup, wc have shown that they can match them - only lost by a goal remember. Pies and Dogs agreed.
WCE are my second team behind Richmond to win the premiership IMO, but if they come across Richmond at the MCG, I don't believe they'll win. They'll come close though.

Even that game, WCE had an excellent first quarter, but were thoroughly outplayed in the second and third quarter. Richmond didn't put their dominance on the score board. To their credit, they fought back in the last, but it wasn't enough. Richmond in September however is entirely a new beast, which GWS and Geelong are well acquainted with no matter how many times they beat them in the H&A season.

I say Collingwood and Dogs because they have the list composition and style of play to counter Richmond's use of space at the MCG. They've both demonstrated that multiple times. I don't think any other team will worry them at the MCG too much.
 

Lsta062

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Mmmmmnup, wc have shown that they can match them - only lost by a goal remember. Pies and Dogs agreed.
Not really. They got a jump on us but once the match settled we had control over the game. We dominated them in the midfield and they were close because of how accurate they were (13.4) and how inaccurate we were (we missed quite a few gettable shots).

We normally would win by about 15-25 points in a game like that but won by 6 behinds instead.

Having said that, they can go with us at the MCG this year mainly because of Kelly. Let’s just admit that our midfield struggles against him. Also, he plays really well at the MCG like he did twice against us last year.
 

VicBased

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No it didn’t lol. It was at the game. Tell me the exact point in the second quarter where you think it starts raining and I’ll watch it. Read any review of the game and they say it starts raining after half time.
You are wrong. I stated it started to rain in the second quarter and that was from the commentators. Wether it was a drissle or not does not matter, it rained in the second as verified by tiger 71
 

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