Structural needs

[Justlokan]

Hill and Smith are the 2 genuine outside runners but they also have Rioli, Breust, Burgoyne, Suckling and Stratton with speed.

in 2014 we had Sinclair, Toovey and Lumumba who had very very good foot speed. However, their less than average footskills meant that the ball was often moving very fast...the other way.

The hawthorn players you listed above (you can add Birchall) have one other thing in common that is of even better value than foot speed - excellent decision making and the ability to find team mates.

As a leading forward, getting separation from your opponent isn't that hard if you can anticipate where your team mate is going to kick to and be confident they can get it to you. How many times do we see Cloke lead, only to have to double back because the kick comes in (a) too slow (b) too high (c) to the wrong spot (d) all of the above.

I'm not saying we should totally ignore foot speed but I'd prefer someone who had a quick brain and had the foot skills to execute (eg Mitchell, Bartel, Hodge, Pendlebury)

 

[Collingwoodity]

I think Broomhead has the most potential of our lot of youngsters. Pace, awareness, footskills, a bit of grunt, and most importantly he leads to the ball (ground or air) and is not lead to the ball.

Think most of our players (except for our inside mids), they are followers or chasers. We need for leaders (not vocal) but on field stuff. Broomhead can do something on the wing/flanks and can just motivate the team to go that step further.

 

[MagpieBat]

On a serious note though, I was actually asking the question because I don't know the answer. I have seen enough of Broomy to believe he has a good goal sense but I don't know about Kennedy. Is he dangerous around the forward line?

Yes, he is.

 

[mike123]

in 2014 we had Sinclair, Toovey and Lumumba who had very very good foot speed. However, their less than average footskills meant that the ball was often moving very fast...the other way.

The hawthorn players you listed above (you can add Birchall) have one other thing in common that is of even better value than foot speed - excellent decision making and the ability to find team mates.

Exactly, we need players with both speed and footskill/vision.

I feel like this hurts us especially in the backline as we used to have Davis, Shaw and Johnson who could take the game but also hit target and we haven't replaced those guys.

I think we really need to target a Heath Shaw type defender.

As a leading forward, getting separation from your opponent isn't that hard if you can anticipate where your team mate is going to kick to and be confident they can get it to you. How many times do we see Cloke lead, only to have to double back because the kick comes in (a) too slow (b) too high (c) to the wrong spot (d) all of the above.

Don't disagree with you there as well. Footskills are obviously important and if you read most of my post I put high value on them.

I'm not saying we should totally ignore foot speed but I'd prefer someone who had a quick brain and had the foot skills to execute (eg Mitchell, Bartel, Hodge, Pendlebury)

I feel like we got our hands on a couple of those types in the draft. Hodge (Maynard), Bartel (De Geoy) and we already have Pendlebury

I'm not saying those 2 will be as good as to champions of the game but they have a similar playing style and both have footskills.

 

[whiskeytown]

a second big bodied key forward !!

Jessie white and gualt won't cut it, reid won't be on the park long enough, and neither witts or grundy are good enough overhead, and moore will take time to bulk up and play in that position - if the pies ever intend on playing him as a forward

happy with de goey but thought wright was best option in the draft as we had a pressing need for a 2nd big bodied forward/ruck

 

[Smoky]

We need Cloke to start leading properly. Stand in the goalsquare and lead in one direction.

Not run round and round in circles and in effect create no lead at all.

If he learns to lead properly he'll kick 100.

 

[mike123]

a second big bodied key forward !!

Jessie white and gualt won't cut it, reid won't be on the park long enough, and neither witts or grundy are good enough overhead, and moore will take time to bulk up and play in that position - if the pies ever intend on playing him as a forward

happy with de goey but thought wright was best option in the draft as we had a pressing need for a 2nd big bodied forward/ruck

Wright was just going to take as long as Moore to bulk up though

 

[loki04]

Wright was just going to take as long as Moore to bulk up though

Wright is much bigger and in need of less bulk then Moore, Wright is man child in size it is strength he lacks more so.

This has nothing to do with my opinion on who we drafted just that comment in particular.

 

[ace andy]

We need Cloke to start leading properly. Stand in the goalsquare and lead in one direction.

Not run round and round in circles and in effect create no lead at all.

If he learns to lead properly he'll kick 100.

Thats the coaches and the whole teams fault not Clokes. He never has that space directly in front of goal to lead into. He always has other players cutting off his leads and double teaming him so he leads to the only places he can find space.

 

[Gone Critical]

Nothing gives me confidence that Fasolo will pull his finger out. Yes, he can kick 5 one game and do nothing the next 4 games. But Betts is far more consistent than that. Yes he stinks like Carlton but still a better player.

Think this is harsh on Fas. He started his career with 2 great years in a top 4 team which is a big ask for a young player. Was a consistent goalkicker, equal 2nd on our goal kicking list in 2012. Contrary to what you say he rarely kicked bags but usually chipped in with 1-2 goals per game. Pre season 2013 he was earmarked for a midfield role. Was set to really step up then got injured missed most of preaseason and almost the whole season. Preseason in 2014 was a writeoff and he had a number of injury issues through the season.

He just hasnt had much of a chance in the last 2 years but was very consistent for a young player before this.

 

[rustyg70]

Thats the coaches and the whole teams fault not Clokes. He never has that space directly in front of goal to lead into. He always has other players cutting off his leads and double teaming him so he leads to the only places he can find space.

Hopefully with Lappin now gone, Steve Grace will be able to bring some new ideas and create a decent forward structure.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Think this is harsh on Fas. He started his career with 2 great years in a top 4 team which is a big ask for a young player. Was a consistent goalkicker, equal 2nd on our goal kicking list in 2012. Contrary to what you say he rarely kicked bags but usually chipped in with 1-2 goals per game. Pre season 2013 he was earmarked for a midfield role. Was set to really step up then got injured missed most of preaseason and almost the whole season. Preseason in 2014 was a writeoff and he had a number of injury issues through the season.

He just hasnt had much of a chance in the last 2 years but was very consistent for a young player before this.

I find it odd that you can find an excuse for Fasolo but you have nearly written off Karnezis.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Hopefully with Lappin now gone, Steve Grace will be able to bring some new ideas and create a decent forward structure.

We can only hope.

 

[Smoky]

Thats the coaches and the whole teams fault not Clokes. He never has that space directly in front of goal to lead into. He always has other players cutting off his leads and double teaming him so he leads to the only places he can find space.

Rubbish.

Cloke needs to run in a straight line from the minute he sees space and even if there is someone in the way they won't be for long as he is the greatest contested mark in the league.

There is at least 300 square meters in the 50 arc...he needs to lead in one direction like every full forward should... instead of pointing to where he might run, then double back and ask for it to be kicked over his head then point somewhere else and (cue the benny hill music...), just make a lead Trav, don't threaten to make a lead 5 times before not actually leading at all.

 

[rustyg70]

Rubbish.

Cloke needs to run in a straight line from the minute he sees space and even if there is someone in the way they won't be for long as he is the greatest contested mark in the league.

There is at least 300 square meters in the 50 arc...he needs to lead in one direction like every full forward should... instead of pointing to where he might run, then double back and ask for it to be kicked over his head then point somewhere else and (cue the benny hill music...), just make a lead Trav, don't threaten to make a lead 5 times before not actually leading at all.

I'd say it's got to do more with the timing of his leads and the decision making of his team mate with the ball.
It's a bonus that he has the tank to be able to make more than one lead, as it will tire out most of his opponents.
Richo was the same, he use to make multiple leads and either get ignored or have the ball kick to badly to him.
You can see why both of them get frustrated with the way the ball is delivered into the forward line.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Top 4 key defenders.

 

[jackcass]

Oxley moves like his name sake...slow, too slow for AFL especially the good sides.

Moves like Shane Morwood, agree, that doesn't make him elite in the pace department, but still manages to get to the places he needs to be. The interesting thing for Oxley is where they end up playing him. Is he competing against Karnezis for a 3rd-4th tall forward type position, is he competing with Langdon for 3rd-4th tall defender position, or is he just in a melting pot competing with the Seedsman, Marsh, Goldsack Young utility types.

 

[ace andy]

Think this is harsh on Fas. He started his career with 2 great years in a top 4 team which is a big ask for a young player. Was a consistent goalkicker, equal 2nd on our goal kicking list in 2012. Contrary to what you say he rarely kicked bags but usually chipped in with 1-2 goals per game. Pre season 2013 he was earmarked for a midfield role. Was set to really step up then got injured missed most of preaseason and almost the whole season. Preseason in 2014 was a writeoff and he had a number of injury issues through the season.

He just hasnt had much of a chance in the last 2 years but was very consistent for a young player before this.

Don't know why you think its such a big ask for a forward pocket type to do well in a top 4 team. Its easier to kick goals in a great team than a bad one if you are not a dominant marking player. See Blair for that. Looked much better in a quality sides a few years ago than he does now.

 

[Gone Critical]

I find it odd that you can find an excuse for Fasolo but you have nearly written off Karnezis.

I haven't written off Karnezis he is just an unproven player who has been in the system for 4 seasons so to me has to prove himself this year or he is likely to run out of chances. Very few players get a 6th season without having become an established AFL player.

Fasolo established himself as best 22 in his 1st season and since has only missed games because of his injury run. He has runs on the board so has credits in the bank.

 

[ace andy]

Rubbish.

Cloke needs to run in a straight line from the minute he sees space and even if there is someone in the way they won't be for long as he is the greatest contested mark in the league.

There is at least 300 square meters in the 50 arc...he needs to lead in one direction like every full forward should... instead of pointing to where he might run, then double back and ask for it to be kicked over his head then point somewhere else and (cue the benny hill music...), just make a lead Trav, don't threaten to make a lead 5 times before not actually leading at all.

Well we will have to disagree on that. Cloke did more of what you say in a 2010/2011 years. Strange about that. I wonder why.

 

[jackcass]

He also knows a behind is equal to 1 point.

Unfortunately not. It's my understanding that as part of the initiation process all recruits are made aware of this obscure fact. So he is no different to any other player in this regard.
On a serious note though, I was actually asking the question because I don't know the answer. I have seen enough of Broomy to believe he has a good goal sense but I don't know about Kennedy. Is he dangerous around the forward line?

Was actually 1 of his touted strengths in the pre-draft hype from memory and there was video to support it. Seems to create some opportunities at senior and VFL level, just sometimes his application and decision making (not off-loading to better placed options) seems to need work. I wonder how much the leg issues preseason impact scoring and general kicking to date. Time will tell.

 

[Gone Critical]

Don't know why you think its such a big ask for a forward pocket type to do well in a top 4 team. Its easier to kick goals in a great team than a bad one if you are not a dominant marking player. See Blair for that. Looked much better in a quality sides a few years ago than he does now.

I think it is a big ask for a first year player to break into the current premiership team that was dominating the 2011 season. Very few 1st year playeers can do that as they are competing against a higher quality group of players than if you are at say a bottom 4 team.

 

[Smoky]

I'd say it's got to do more with the timing of his leads and the decision making of his team mate with the ball.
It's a bonus that he has the tank to be able to make more than one lead, as it will tire out most of his opponents.
Richo was the same, he use to make multiple leads and either get ignored or have the ball kick to badly to him.
You can see why both of them get frustrated with the way the ball is delivered into the forward line.

I think you're letting Cloke off here. You can't say it's because of the Players delivery when Cloke doesn't actually give them a direct leading target. Believe me if Cloke was streaming out 2 meters ahead of his direct opponent, players would be hitting him on the chest... instead of his indecisive manner in which he deals with his leading options.

 

[Prochard123]

Assuming Reid will be either injured or playing Forward in round 1. Who will be our 2 key defenders, out of Keefe/Brown/Frost.

 

[noideaatall]

I think you're letting Cloke off here. You can't say it's because of the Players delivery when Cloke doesn't actually give them a direct leading target. Believe me if Cloke was streaming out 2 meters ahead of his direct opponent, players would be hitting him on the chest... instead of his indecisive manner in which he deals with his leading options.

Does it have to be one or the other? Bit of a team mojo going on here. 2011 particularly the mojo was out of sight.