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Structural needs

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mike123 said:
Exactly, we need players with both speed and footskill/vision.

I feel like this hurts us especially in the backline as we used to have Davis, Shaw and Johnson who could take the game but also hit target and we haven't replaced those guys.

I think we really need to target a Heath Shaw type defender.



Don't disagree with you there as well. Footskills are obviously important and if you read most of my post I put high value on them.



I feel like we got our hands on a couple of those types in the draft. Hodge (Maynard), Bartel (De Geoy) and we already have Pendlebury:)

I'm not saying those 2 will be as good as to champions of the game but they have a similar playing style and both have footskills.
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Some sort of irony in targetting the bloke you sent away. We seemed to have run a heap of players through the backline. All our cards seem to be on Scharenber to be that one to give the defense some stand out class.
 
noideaatall said:
Does it have to be one or the other? Bit of a team mojo going on here. 2011 particularly the mojo was out of sight.
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Well you can't hit a leading target... if the target doesn't lead. Is my opinion.

Agree with your mojo call though. But If Cloke creates mad, massive targets... then I would feel obliged to hit it... Running round and round in circles pointing in 360 degrees adds 359 unneeded degrees.

If Cloke leads right - then he kicks 80 - 100... and our crumbing forwards have something to crumb. I honestly believe this is the weakest part of our game - and Cloke should be bigger than Franklin.
 
Smoky said:
I think you're letting Cloke off here. You can't say it's because of the Players delivery when Cloke doesn't actually give them a direct leading target. Believe me if Cloke was streaming out 2 meters ahead of his direct opponent, players would be hitting him on the chest... instead of his indecisive manner in which he deals with his leading options.
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I don't think you can lay so much of it on Cloke either. I agree that leads could be better, but by the same token, up field ball movement needs to be more predictable, and then you factor in delivery, and the lack of another consistently viable KPF, and multiple opponents.

Lots of factors
 
Smoky said:
Well you can't hit a leading target... if the target doesn't lead. Is my opinion.

Agree with your mojo call though. But If Cloke creates mad, massive targets... then I would feel obliged to hit it... Running round and round in circles pointing in 360 degrees adds 359 unneeded degrees.

If Cloke leads right - then he kicks 80 - 100... and our crumbing forwards have something to crumb. I honestly believe this is the weakest part of our game - and Cloke should be bigger than Franklin.
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Disagree, nice if Cloke kicks 80-100, but would prefer him kicking 60, and another KPF kicking 50, Elliott and a couple of other getting 20-40, resting rucks adding another 20 between them. Becomes a far more productive and unpredictable forward line.
 

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Surely some thought has to be given to the champion forwards Cloke has had around him over the last 3 years? Quick thought, isn't it. Apart Eliot no one player has succeded offensively. I have no doubt Cloke can improve his leading but he alone won't make this a dangerous forward line. A crumbing forward line should feed off cloke's dropped marks. Alternatively a decent forward line, linked with some sort of decent ball movement, should be able to take advantage of cloke's 3 on 1. we do neither.
 
Prochard123 said:
Assuming Reid will be either injured or playing Forward in round 1. Who will be our 2 key defenders, out of Keefe/Brown/Frost.
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I think Brown coming back is a lock for the fullback, Frost was great this year but he struggles against some of the bigger bodied key forwards and his kicking decision making I find to be allot worse than Brown's. As for the CHB, I like Keeffe over Frost as Keeffe is a better kick and rebounder generates more meaningful drive for the back half and his intercept mark ability is better. I also like Keeffe's height and athleticism. He soetimes just gets a spoil in for being to damn tall. Frost is a better option for shutting down athletic talls but I'd still trust Keeffe enough on athletic talls. Also Keeffe is our best option for second rucks and other awkward talls like Daniher.

I wouldn't mind Frost taking Toovey's role and play both tall and small.
 
noideaatall said:
Some sort of irony in targetting the bloke you sent away. We seemed to have run a heap of players through the backline. All our cards seem to be on Scharenber to be that one to give the defense some stand out class.
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I said type, preferably someone who'd last you the next 10 years.
 
Brown - gone backwards.
Frost - too young. Unsure if he can become elite.
Keeffe - one of the biggest spuds to play for any team as a KPB going in to 2015.

We have a bottom 5 defence.
 
noideaatall said:
Surely some thought has to be given to the champion forwards Cloke has had around him over the last 3 years? Quick thought, isn't it. Apart Eliot no one player has succeded offensively. I have no doubt Cloke can improve his leading but he alone won't make this a dangerous forward line. A crumbing forward line should feed off cloke's dropped marks. Alternatively a decent forward line, linked with some sort of decent ball movement, should be able to take advantage of cloke's 3 on 1. we do neither.
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In my opinion a lot of this is tactics. For a few years now we have played only two or three offensive forwards at a time with the rest being negative players. Too much is left to too few because opposition backmen know who they can ignore and who they must target. We're too predictable as a result.

It just doesn't work.
 
Justlokan said:
in 2014 we had Sinclair, Toovey and Lumumba who had very very good foot speed. However, their less than average footskills meant that the ball was often moving very fast...the other way.

The hawthorn players you listed above (you can add Birchall) have one other thing in common that is of even better value than foot speed - excellent decision making and the ability to find team mates.

As a leading forward, getting separation from your opponent isn't that hard if you can anticipate where your team mate is going to lead to and be confident they can get it to you. How many times do we see Cloke lead, only to have to double back because the kick comes in (a) too slow (b) too high (c) to the wrong spot (d) all of the above.

I'm not saying we should totally ignore foot speed but I'd prefer someone who had a quick brain and had the foot skills to execute (eg Mitchell, Bartel, Hodge, Pendlebury)
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Excellent.
Reposted to The Collingwood Blog
 

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Mungo Mulligan Stew said:
Assuming Reid will be either injured or playing Forward in round 1. Who will be our 2 key defenders, out of Keefe/Brown/Frost.



Can't decide if you're sunshine or a rainbow.
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It's tough because Brown and Frost are better defenders but Keefe is a better user. I think Frost is necessary because he is the only one with the speed and agility to keep up with the more athletic talls. On that logic, I suppose it's Frost and Keefe. Where Reid plays will depend on the speed of Moore's development IMO.
 
THATSGOLD said:
Brown - gone backwards.
Frost - too young. Unsure if he can become elite.
Keeffe - one of the biggest spuds to play for any team as a KPB going in to 2015.

We have a bottom 5 defence.
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Did well to finish 11th then...
 
Prochard123 said:
Assuming Reid will be either injured or playing Forward in round 1. Who will be our 2 key defenders, out of Keefe/Brown/Frost.
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Will depend largely on the opposition but I wouldn't discount the possibility of all 3 playing some games. Brown clearly the 1st choice.
 
Boris the Contradiction said:
It's tough because Brown and Frost are better defenders but Keefe is a better user. I think Frost is necessary because he is the only one with the speed and agility to keep up with the more athletic talls. On that logic, I suppose it's Frost and Keefe. Where Reid plays will depend on the speed of Moore's development IMO.
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Play Frost as the 3rd tall/floating backman like we did with Maxwell.
 
rustyg70 said:
Play Frost as the 3rd tall/floating backman like we did with Maxwell.
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Agree, think he can become a very handy 3rd tall. Marking and kicking generally good, confidence to take the game on and decision making will develop with experience
 
jackcass said:
Agree, think he can become a very handy 3rd tall. Marking and kicking generally good, confidence to take the game on and decision making will develop with experience
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That's what I reckon also.
I'd go in with something like this:

Williams Brown Frost
Langdon Keefe Toovey.
 

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rustyg70 said:
I realise that, but do you seriously think we will get any near a GF next season.
We will be lucky to make the 8.

How would you structure our backline then??
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So you agree the backline would need to change before we were once again contenders. Which I believe is becoming monemental now we've dropped, regardless of the young list.
 
THATSGOLD said:
So you agree the backline would need to change before we were once again contenders. Which I believe is becoming monemental now we've dropped, regardless of the young list.
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With out a doubt, but you can only play with the cards you are dealt.
Chuck up you backline for us.
 

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