success

[blue gunslinger]

many experts had Coll almost dropping out of the 8 before the season
The thing with the premiership teams is they are there and there abouts and build like an avalanche. Coll were OK and then became elite. We are OK- can we become elite?

 

[mediumsizered]

many experts had Coll almost dropping out of the 8 before the season
The thing with the premiership teams is they are there and there abouts and build like an avalanche. Coll were OK and then became elite. We are OK- can we become elite?

Much like Geelong, who after a PF & SF finish in 2004 & 2005, missed the finals in 2006 & then came out in 2007 & blew everyone away. I don't think anyone saw that coming, least of all the Geelong board of directors, except for Frank Costa, who all wanted Bomber Thompson sacked.

 

[blue gunslinger]

Much like Geelong, who after a PF & SF finish in 2004 & 2005, missed the finals in 2006 & then came out in 2007 & blew everyone away. I don't think anyone saw that coming, least of all the Geelong board of directors, except for Frank Costa, who all wanted Bomber Thompson sacked.

They talk about teams that don't fall back -teams that expect success
In the same way teams do accept mediocrity
We have players on the verge of greatness. Do they expect greatness and go and grab it or accept mediocrity? I am unsure whether we have that burning desire-show me!

 

[mediumsizered]

They talk about teams that don't fall back -teams that expect success
In the same way teams do accept mediocrity
We have players on the verge of greatness. Do they expect greatness and go and grab it or accept mediocrity? I am unsure whether we have that burning desire-show me!

Does that burning desire come with experience/maturity? With the majority of our talent lying at the younger end of our list (of our older players I would only have Judd, Waite & maybe Simpson in our Top 10 most talented players) it is difficult to judge just yet whether they have/will have that burning desire (outside of Kreuzer who is just the consummate professional).

Time will tell, but if/when the turnaround occurs it will happen quite suddenly, much like we went from being also rans in 1997/98 to a GF in '99 & winning 13 games in a row in 2000 (unfortunately we inspired Essendon to a blockbuster season in 2000 by beating them in the '99 PF).

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

You really are a boring little snot, that's for sure. You must just have one post that copy, paste and tinker with constantly.

Yes, our forwards are the ones who provide forward pressure, gee that's hard to figure out isn't it. As I've pointed out the guys we have doing it are all known for doing it very well.

I've already written about Collingwood's older core twice. Seriously, learn to read.

Yes, we have a game plan. We're still developing and it's pretty obvious we need to be out pressuring our opponents to execute it properly. It will come with having our full team to choose from and further development into our long list of talented young players.

This was always going to be a development year after the players we lost. Anyone who's being realistic understands this and we did a pretty good job all things considered.

You really are an idiot. Quit while you're behind.

You can only play the man online .... i will tell you that!!!

We did a shocking job..!!!!

unless you can show me who actually improved.!!!

Who improved????

Take the last 15 games and tell me who we beat????

Youre a sugar pusher!!!... good for you!!

But stick to the facts!!

Who improved?????

What gameplan did we persue this year????

You can get as personal as you like but its fine....

Cos you dont have arguments.... so you resort to them.

But i know its just keyboard talk.... youd never act like that to my face...

So i dont take any of it seriously....

Now back to the theme is this.

Who improved and who went backwards... and who is stagnating???

 

[Loramarthalas]

Improved Players:

Warnock
Betts
Garlett
Jacobs
Walker
Russell
Jamison
Ellard
Grigg

There are probably more, but these are just the obvious ones. That's nine players. Half of our starting eighteen. I'd be happy if we can keep getting improvement from half of our starting eighteen for the next few years. We'll catch Collingwood in no time.

 

[Sin City]

unless you can show me who actually improved.!!!

Who improved????

Betts, Garlett, Yarran, Henderson, Robinson, Grigg, Ellard, Warnock, Jacobs, Kreuzer, Armfield, Simpson, Russell, Davies, Johnson.

I've already answered the rest of your drivel a few times, repeating the question doesn't change it, just makes your posts more tiresome and you come across even stupider. Repeating yourself is not going to change the sad fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Very simplistic to compare us to Collingwood. Yes, they got their early draft picks on board at the same time that we did. Yes, they have turned over their list and are playing deep into finals. However the environments those players came into were vastly different.

The likes of Pendlebury and Thomas came into a team surrounded by Buckley, Burns, Licuria, Wakelin, Rocca, Clement, Prestigiacomo. They had a senior core there to learn from and to settle in.

We had Fevola, Stevens, Scotland ... err ... Houlihan, and briefly Koutoufides and Whitnall who were not exactly flying. Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer were expected to become the great white hopes right off the bat. No apprenticeships to be had there.

When we fell after 2001, we lost Bradley, McKay, Ratten very quickly. Campo was not a leader either. We had a complete dearth of leadership, especially vocal leadership, so our best player Kouta, and then most experienced player Whitnall got the captaincy by default. Our coaching was struggling and our board was in turmoil, and our resources limited.

It is simply unfair to suggest that our development should have paralled Collingwood's.

Also consider the years leading up to 2005 when they were down the bottom with us.

2002 - Carlton 3 H&A wins (16th), Collingwood 13 wins (2nd)
2003 - Carlton 4 wins (15th), Collingwood 15 wins (2nd)
2004 - Carlton 10 wins (10th), Collingwood 8 wins (13th)
2005 - Carlton 4 wins (16th), Collingwood 5 wins (15th)
2006 - Carlton 3 wins (16th), Collingwood 14 wins (5th)

And so it goes as they made the finals every year since.

2004, 2005 were aberrations from the Pies. They still had stability on the board, in the coaches box and with a senior core there and a second tier coming through.

Carlton's youngsters effectively have lost a couple of seasons from their careers performance wise, through having to learn for themselves with little support. We didn't just have to harvest the crops, we had to sew the seeds ourselves and wait for it to grow in hurricane season.

As for our late season fadeout, we can't just mention that we only beat bottom 5 sides. Fact is we lost our way completely, our intensity dropped off, players were waiting for others to lead the way. However, it wasn't just wins over Essendon and Richmond to be noted. The way we took it up to Fremantle and lost by a goal at Subiaco, and then had that heartbreaking loss against the Swans, showed that our intensity was back and the players got some belief back. After that Collingwood loss, we picked it up again for sure.

I remember the 93 GF loss, and the straight sets exit in 94. They really helped to focus the group for a tilt in 95. Not sure that this younger side will have the same resolve (and the names in 95 were pretty handy as well), but I can see leadership developing in this side, and not just through the midfield. Jamison, Henderson, Kreuzer are all disciplined young players who will lead their respective lines.

Jamison had Thornton to learn from .... the Collingwood defenders had Presti and Clement.

Henderson has just got there and we had no other forwards because of the Fevola monopoly. The Collingwood forwards had Rocca as a central point and Cloke has been around a lot longer than Hendo and is now the new key forward leader.

Who did Kreuzer have to look up to ... Ackland, McLaren? No, our rucks are all young and working it out for themselves. The Pies have also struggled in this area, from Fraser to Wood to Richards to Bryan, and now they have turned to an experienced premiership ruckman to fill the void.

At times last year our defence worked well. Bower has trailed off, Jamo was down this year, Thornton became a VFL player. That's not to say they can't get it back again, but it is a risk we don't want to take. Our forward line functioned for much of the year, and our midfield is great when their intensity is up, and our rucks plentiful. We either trade for a forward and send Waite back, or trade for a back and leave Waite forward. Waite is far better one on one when up forward and tends to get nudged out in such contests down back. We need steel but not dour steel like Jamo. We need rebound but not fragile rebound like Bower. Somewhere in between would be nice.

It is called addressing a need, and that need is pressing. Jamo and Bower can bounce back and do the job, Austin could come on, White could come in. There are options but we still lack that experienced, harder option. They might only wind up being depth but I if they are depth, that mean our other defenders are flying and that is a nice problem to have.

I think Carlton had the perfect inconsistent season. Inconsistent application and intensity. Won games we were expected to lose, lost games were were expected to lose, won games we were expected to win and lost games we were expected to win.

Our first 2/5ths were pretty good, our next 2/5ths were pretty bad and our last 5th was decent. That is not embracing mediocrity either. That is just looking at what other developing sides have done in the past.

If we fall from here, then we have failed dismally. I argue that we are not yet supposed to be right up there however.

2010 was a liberating year in terms of change with Fev leaving. That loss of intensity that got progressively worse from round 7 on, was the most frustrating, but we definitely got that back and showed that much of what happened onfield, was between the ears. I think the players got that after the Collingwood loss. It might have only been Essendon but this is exactly the sort of game Essendon was beating us in. We never really dropped our bundle again after that.

Next step is competing with the top couple of teams and making a solid top 4, which means winning games we are expected to win. Anything less is a fail. I'm prepared to recognise that progression however and not take potshots for the sake of it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

many experts had Coll almost dropping out of the 8 before the season
The thing with the premiership teams is they are there and there abouts and build like an avalanche. Coll were OK and then became elite. We are OK- can we become elite?

Collingwood just did some relatively minor tinkering to become elite. Nobody thought when it was all on the line that they had anything on Geelong. Friday night was a rude awakening.

We tend to expect champions to stay champions forever despite the fact that the greatest sides taper off after about 4-5 years nowadays.

Hawthorn came from nowhere with a young side expected to now form a dynasty. Sydney did it based on game plan and application. West Coast did it based on a superstar midfield and not a hell of a lot else.

When you stack up individual players in Geelong and Collingwood and ignore Friday night, you would take the Geelong player most times. The Collingwood players have an unshakable belief and desire and that moves mountains.

It is possible that we just need to find that drive switch to become elite. You look at some of our individuals and you wonder if they are up to it. They have all showed talent but mentally they go missing. Some Pies players have been guilty of that in the past too.

It really is a matter of degrees, the difference between premiership and ho hum sometimes.

 

[blue gunslinger]

I was driving home yesterday listening with half an ear to ABC grandstand and one of the blokes was asked if Ablett had played his last game for Geelong. He said that he had and that he was happy to announce a scoop that Ablett was in fact going to Carlton..............well I managed to get the car back on the road just as the laughter in the control room died down. Thanks Gerard Whateley

 

[Big Red is back]

Defense and defensive structures wins AFL finals and GFs , the amount of times at a Carlton game i look at our set up and see the opposition with a completely open fwd line is so frustrating.

If Ratten would install appropriate defensive structures i would stop calling to change him but we seem to play a semi zone man on man style which with a weak back 6 is never going to challenge for a flag.

ALL I WANT FOR XMAS IS A STRUCTURED MODERN GAME PLAN

 

[mediumsizered]

Fantastic post above by ODN. One of the key points made is very relevant to the difference between player development at Carlton & Collingwood. Resources.

Our players moved into an elite training centre midway through this season. Prior to this they have mostly had to use facilities which had not improved much since the '80s. In contrast, Collingwood players have had access to an elite training facility for several years.

On top of this, Collingwood's spending on player development has mostly exceeded ours for the last decade, in fact we have only had a designated development coaching team for the last couple of years. Prior to this player development was in the hands of Pagan & his assistants, who had matchday duties to focus on, rather than putting the time into the kids coming into the club.

To compete with the best you have to devote the resources to your players that the best clubs are devoting. Prior to the return of Dick Pratt, our Football Department spending was among the lowest in the competition (if I remember rightly only North were spending less). We are now working in a level playing field, but coming from a decade behind Collingwood (& several other clubs). The current group of talented young players will reap benefits that many before them totally missed out on.

 

[blue gunslinger]

Did Sticks do much media work in Vic this year? I cannot recall seeing him do many press conf at all. What is the feeling about his position? He certainly has the passion and the club appears in a strong financial position

 

[Big Red is back]

Did Sticks do much media work in Vic this year? I cannot recall seeing him do many press conf at all. What is the feeling about his position? He certainly has the passion and the club appears in a strong financial position

Swanny is really the president sticks is just a figure head.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Very simplistic to compare us to Collingwood. Yes, they got their early draft picks on board at the same time that we did. Yes, they have turned over their list and are playing deep into finals. However the environments those players came into were vastly different.

Next step is competing with the top couple of teams and making a solid top 4, which means winning games we are expected to win. Anything less is a fail. I'm prepared to recognise that progression however and not take potshots for the sake of it.

Nice post. Always interesting to observe the differences between supporters, positive/negative, need to trade/need to draft. I think the contenders over the last few years have shown that everyone from the President down has to be on the same page. We need to make every post a winner to take the next step. I think we're behind the eight ball in a few areas - our use of the bench seems to be behind a lot of teams. I'm confused as to who is actually the list manager at Carlton Icke or Ratten? I really think there is a need to specify our recruiting in the next few drafts, as plugging holes via the trade period seems fairly flawed as a strategy. I'm not sure if Sticks has settled into the gig as prez or if he's looking for a replacement, but I'm not sure if it's a great role for him. The effects of great presidency become obvious throughout a club, hopefully the next great Carlton president is out there(Not sure if Ahmed Fahour is still an option). At the end of the day ,premierships are bloody hard to win and all we can do is tick every box we can.

 

[gbatman]

We aren't far off the top 4 sides. There's some gold in the trade period and if we can get a player like Mundy and get our important players fit and off the injury list we'll shake things up in 2011. It's a fine line between where we are and being a top side and we are capable of crossing it.

I don't think there are too many problems with the coaching and presidency. There is a few holes in our side and a lot of bodies and minds lacking maturity. We can make the top 4 in 2011 if we have a good run with injuries.

At the ends of the day we limped to the line in 2010. That's why many of the players who played the Swans in the final up there also played in the VFL grand final. We were playing with a side full of 2nds players. Considering that we did well. Sides that win the GF usually do so with hardly any players missing from their best 22. Our biggest problem is our players ability to stay injury free.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Harks, Jer, ODN, Dram etc, why are you bothering? The guy is a tool, he has his opinion and has every right to be as wrong, as impatient and as unrealistic as he likes. I think I might take a sabbatical, cant stand reading posters with tiny minds like that for another 4 months. See you around draft time for a check in.

 

[ESKIE]

You can only play the man online .... i will tell you that!!!

We did a shocking job..!!!!

unless you can show me who actually improved.!!!

Who improved????

Take the last 15 games and tell me who we beat????

Youre a sugar pusher!!!... good for you!!

But stick to the facts!!

Who improved?????

What gameplan did we persue this year????

You can get as personal as you like but its fine....

Cos you dont have arguments.... so you resort to them.

But i know its just keyboard talk.... youd never act like that to my face...

So i dont take any of it seriously....

Now back to the theme is this.

Who improved and who went backwards... and who is stagnating???

Likes, exclamation & question marks.

Oh and negativity

 

[Dramoth]

Harks, Jer, ODN, Dram etc, why are you bothering? The guy is a tool, he has his opinion and has every right to be as wrong, as impatient and as unrealistic as he likes. I think I might take a sabbatical, cant stand reading posters with tiny minds like that for another 4 months. See you around draft time for a check in.

I think that you have pretty much nailed it there mate...

Sometimes with some of our fellow Carlton supporters, I just feel like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[Sin City]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6473

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6473

About says it all really. Combine that with the calls for Bomber Thompson's head a few years back.

Some like to throw all the mud they can, knowing full well that the odds against success are greater than the odds for success in a 16 team (soon to be 18) competition.

If you predict every player to be a failure and every coach to be a failure, you will be right more often than not. The trick is to tip things the other way as well, if you want to prove you have some credibility.

I swear some of our supporters would rather be right than be successful.

 

[Jock]

Whilst THS has copped some stick I haven't seen too many answers to his questions.

Some very valid points raised.

We have a "P" plater coach of which I didn't want the club to appoint when we did.

However we did choose him and he is slowly progressing and learning on the run.
I'd love to see Laidley appointed or a senior assistant or two from a top four clubs appointed though rather than Goodwin to give us some more strength and experience in the coaching department.

As for Footy manager and recruiter - Why did we go after Freeo's ?

Out of character for Dick.

Dick's motto was to get the best not get the best available.

Eg. Swann

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Whilst THS has copped some stick I haven't seen too many answers to his questions.

Which questions in particular and how many answers do you need?

 

[Jock]

Which questions in particular and how many answers do you need?

Multiple points - I'm a lazy poster that won't be going to the effort to highlight them all sorry.

 

[thylacine60]

Multiple points - I'm a lazy poster that won't be going to the effort to highlight them all sorry.

Poster Laziness - literary artistry takes many forms.