Suicide

[Run n Spread]

What are you on about? I've never promoted 'talking about it' as a cure for depression - i don't even know if i'm for or against "talking about it". Have no idea why you quoted me for that rant.

Frankly the most gifted people i know for snapping people out of depression or a depressed mood (even if for a short while), do it by diverting attention away towards something silly or funny. So if anything, i'm probably not an advocate of "talking about depression" as a cure.

Defiantly only works for a short while. In the long term it is counterproductive I think. Standard everyday things that people with depression/anxiety have trouble coping with need to be completed. If not it makes the problem worse. i.e. Telling someone not to worry about work/study and to relax and not take themselves seriously is well and good but what happens if they are out for so long they lose their touch or become unable to work or generate income. Massive problem.

 

[nicky]

Defiantly only works for a short while. In the long term it is counterproductive I think. Standard everyday things that people with depression/anxiety have trouble coping with need to be completed. If not it makes the problem worse. i.e. Telling someone not to worry about work/study and to relax and not take themselves seriously is well and good but what happens if they are out for so long they lose their touch or become unable to work or generate income. Massive problem.

That is not even close to what i was saying.

 

[Run n Spread]

That is not even close to what i was saying.

Not saying it was. I've heard that same point said before and wanted to respond. Hence bolded the quote. When you say the most gifted people are you referring to friends, medical professionals or other types of people?

 

[nicky]

Regular people, friends.

 

[skilts]

What are you on about? I've never promoted 'talking about it' as a cure for depression - i don't even know if i'm for or against "talking about it". Have no idea why you quoted me for that rant.

Frankly the most gifted people i know for snapping people out of depression or a depressed mood (even if for a short while), do it by diverting attention away towards something silly or funny. So if anything, i'm probably not an advocate of "talking about depression" as a cure.

Probably quoted your post by mistake, though you upbraid Sydney Bloods for a lack of sympathy towards the mentally ill, and more particularly, an inability to help them. Assuming he has no license to dispense drugs, there seems to me to be little of use he could provide, other than to indulge in some form of the talking therapy. Perhaps you could suggest another method he might usefully employ to assist people who are so depressed they see no way out of it, and who ignore anything that is said to them, because the person saying it can't possibly understand their illness.

 

[rayven]

It must be so uplifting for someone with depression as a result of being tret like shit and brought up in a household their parents tret them as worthless, when good folk think they have all the ideas how to treat them and what should or should not be talked about

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Is there any possibility at all, that the reason mental illness is so difficult for non-sufferers to understand is that those who do suffer have no means by which to explain their illness? It seems to me that those who suffer from depression find themselves unable to overcome what is a constant mental state. Those not so afflicted have difficulty in putting themselves in the others shoes. The fault in this, if their be any due, might well be sheeted home to both parties in the communication process.

Also, where has anybody proved that it is always, under all circumstances, under all conditions, better to talk about it? Not just for those who have been convinced it is better to talk about it, by people whose income derives from listening to them, but by those who find themselves in a position where they are, without warning or consent, expected to listen without such payment.

If this so-called talking therapy had any efficacy at all, surely those who obtain payment for it would be able to point to incontrovertible evidence of this. There is none. The best that can be said is that it causes no more harm than doing nothing. To expect unqualified Joe Bloggs to know how to react to something, of which he barely has any understanding, is unrealistic, especially, as seems to be the case, if the ill have difficulty explaining their situation in terms that are readily understood by those not so afflicted.

Blaming anybody in this situation seems counter-productive. An option might be to stop promoting constant talk as a panacea, when obviously, it's not. All would benefit from this.

One of the best posts I have read this year. Quoted in full for that reason.

 

[WeetBixKid]

I don't thınk ıt follows that any experıence, no matter how horrıble ıs necessarıly better than none. So, ıf somethıng happened that made my lıfe feel not worth lıvıng I would kıll myself.

 

[ashley12]

I tried searching for another thread for a post I made on the topic, and came up empty and found this instead.

There are a lot of opinions in this thread that are just flat out wrong, on both sides.

People who chose to kill themselves might be doing it as a final FU to their families, they might be doing it because they think it will make things for them better. Some people might not give a damn about what happens after they are gone.

Those making wild speculation behind the motives of those who choose to voluntarily leave this Earth would be a lot better doing what they can to prevent someone they know from possibly doing so then telling the rest of us how little respect they have for those who are gone.

 

[skilts]

I tried searching for another thread for a post I made on the topic, and came up empty and found this instead.

There are a lot of opinions in this thread that are just flat out wrong, on both sides.

People who chose to kill themselves might be doing it as a final FU to their families, they might be doing it because they think it will make things for them better. Some people might not give a damn about what happens after they are gone.

Those making wild speculation behind the motives of those who choose to voluntarily leave this Earth would be a lot better doing what they can to prevent someone they know from possibly doing so then telling the rest of us how little respect they have for those who are gone.

Fair points. The most likely reason for suicide is that people don't want to be here any more. Admittedly, it is a radical (and simplistic) expression of this thought. FWIW, I think people want to leave because they don't want to think anymore about what is troubling them, because it causes them too much pain. This overrides any consideration of the potential effects of their actions on others. It's not that they don't care about others, or are selfish. People who criticise others for having suicided can have no idea of what went through the head of the dead person. This is obvious, if you take account that the first question usually asked by those who are still here is, "Why?"

I knew of one case where a bloke spent ten years in unbelievable pain due to his body being turned into pulp after a collision with a truck. He endured this debilitating pain, causing him to develop an addiction to painkillers, and eventually heroin. Then he went through five years of insurance companies' lawyers telling him he was a liar when he claimed compensation. The prospect of another bout with these lawyers, the hopelessness of his addictive state, the mental and physical pain he endured, and just being, literally, sick of it all, caused him to hang himself from the branch of a tree in the Fitzroy Gardens. In this case, nobody asked, "Why?"

 

[nicky]

Probably quoted your post by mistake, though you upbraid Sydney Bloods for a lack of sympathy towards the mentally ill, and more particularly, an inability to help them. Assuming he has no license to dispense drugs, there seems to me to be little of use he could provide, other than to indulge in some form of the talking therapy. Perhaps you could suggest another method he might usefully employ to assist people who are so depressed they see no way out of it, and who ignore anything that is said to them, because the person saying it can't possibly understand their illness.

I didn't "upbraid Sydney bloods for his inability to help the mentally ill". Stop making things up just so you have an excuse to pontificate some more.



I have no idea how to help mentally ill / depressed people and have not claimed to. Once again, you're projecting stupidity on to me just so you can pretend to have wisdom.

Wow skilts, please teach me the error of my ways oh wise one.

Spare me.

 

[nicky]

One of the best posts I have read this year. Quoted in full for that reason.

Really? I thought it was a very shit post.

He used a position that i don't hold and rebuttled with a rant about psychologists because it would appear he has a bee in his bonnet about them.

He also claims that it's unfair to expect "unqualified Joe bloggs to react" appropriately to something he doesn't understand.... Groundbreaking stuff.

His points are watery, not to mention, i had never said anything to the contrary to initiate his rebuttle in the first place.

 

[skilts]

Really? I thought it was a very shit post.

He used a position that i don't hold and rebuttled with a rant about psychologists because it would appear he has a bee in his bonnet about them.

He also claims that it's unfair to expect "unqualified Joe bloggs to react" appropriately to something he doesn't understand.... Groundbreaking stuff.

His points are watery, not to mention, i had never said anything to the contrary to initiate his rebuttle in the first place.

Feel better now?

 

[nicky]

Feel better now?

The irony. You're the one who feeds your ego by condemning the thinking of others, the implication being that you're better at thinking. I'm just defending myself against you because in the last page you've invented 2 positions i'm supposed to hold so you could make yourself feel better by imparting some "wisdom."

 

[blackcat]

The irony. You're the one who feeds your ego by condemning the thinking of others, the implication being that you're better at thinking. I'm just defending myself against you because in the last page you've invented 2 positions i'm supposed to hold so you could make yourself feel better by imparting some "wisdom."

skilts has the right interests at heart.

*hypothetically, if he had a heart

 

[nicky]

So do i especially when it comes to suicide, depression and mental illness so don't appreciate people claiming things that are not true about my position on the topic just so they can preach.

 

[skilts]

So do i especially when it comes to suicide, depression and mental illness so don't appreciate people claiming things that are not true about my position on the topic just so they can preach.

I detect an unstated vested interest at play here. Maybe that's your problem.

 

[nicky]

Give it up, I'm defending myself against your undeserved pontifications.

 

[rayven]

This is a very important distinction, and one that is strangely often missed. There appears to be some elements of mis-diagnosis of situational depression as clinical depression (largely by GPs, handing out drugs quite freely), and some missing of clinical depression (related to people often not seeking help)..

Also, the effects a struggling endocrine system has on the body and nervous system and the misdiagnoses of that..

Very taboo subject with the triggers for that ,actually promoted in society and our children, not warned against.

Post natal depression is a classic example.

 

[blackcat]

Give it up, I'm defending myself against your undeserved pontifications.

i think u will find skilts is not for the pontif neither. he is one of those atheist types, not too simpatico

 

[Commando]

I've only read a few pages of this thread but as somebody who has recently lost his brother all I will say is that it is not the answer.

It is f*cked, there are no words

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I think the biggest misconception about suicide is people thinking the person actually wants to die.

There's a big difference between wanting to die, and just not being able to live any more.

 

[nicky]

I've only read a few pages of this thread but as somebody who has recently lost his brother all I will say is that it is not the answer.

It is f*cked, there are no words

That is horrible Commando. Deepest sympathies.

 

[carn tigez]

I think the biggest misconception about suicide is people thinking the person actually wants to die.

There's a big difference between wanting to die, and just not being able to live any more.

Agreed, but isn't the idea of rejecting suicide good for society as a whole? If I can use the analogy of something as arbitrary as studying for exams, people who allow/accept the idea of procrastination and setting themselves for a 60% are the ones who end up with a 60%. Everyone feels the strain of studying, but it's those who reject the idea of not trying everything in their power to maximize results that end up maximizing results. It is easier to give up than to push through and study, but the reality is everyone would be better for it if they did the hard work and got the good grades. If procrastination and mediocre results were more frowned upon in society, I believe that a lot less people would succumb to it.

Now I realize that for the most part suicide is a much bigger, more complicated issue and that my analogy only works on a very shallow level. But the point is, if you when in a rational state of mind "accept" or "excuse" suicide, aren't you more likely to turn to it when you are in a slump? The reality is that there are people who commit suicide who never feel as down as other people who push through it, so it's not like there is a specific point of no return where suicide is the only option. Rather, people feel it is the only option. But could this not be because when thinking rationally (and not in a slump), these people believe that suicide is a relatively valid option for someone feeling down?

My belief is that we shouldn't judge suicide too harshly and a simple view of "people who commit suicide are selfish" is wrong, but at the same time it should not be vindicated as an acceptable choice for someone who is at rock bottom.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Every case is different. For people in the very depths of mental illness, what they're forced to endure is something that people just can't judge.

I've heard the analogy of the man walking, and a weight is added onto his shoulders. He buckles, slows down but keeps walking. Until another weight is added... and another, and another, and another. Eventually he cracks, and collapses.

The point is everybody has their breaking point... Whether that's "acceptable" or not isn't really the point. Its what they're forced to endure, minute after minute, hour after hour, year after year. Whilst its incredibly difficult for those close to the victim, sometimes life becomes nothing more than a weight that has to be carried in order to save them that pain. But it can become too heavy. People who haven't had to carry that weight really can't judge.