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Super 15

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AuckMel said:
It goes from shocking to shockinger for the Blues.
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I think the saddest thing is that they have one of the most talented teams in the competition. It's obvious that the players have lost all faith in Pat Lam. Pulling Nonu out in the 52nd minute mark was criminal especially considering every time he touched the ball the Reds defence compressed bigtime and opened up room on the wings.

The Reds didn't play all that well. All 3 tries came from ridiculous strategic errors or stupendous turnovers. The Blues did their best to lose that game.
 
Well if Tom Carter tackled better and if the Waratahs could win the occasional contest at the kick off, I think they'd have won that.

Decent game though and great to watch a super rugby game on a sunday afternoon. 30k fans is a pretty good indicator we need more of it. Happy to see there's another one next weekend as well against the Bulls. Might head out again.

Was funny to see all the kiwis in the crowd go nuts when Richie McCaw came off the bench. Didn't realise quite how much he is loved over there.
 

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The Highlanders comeback coincided with Goosen going off injured (he's now out for 4 months). Very unfortunate for him just before the under 20's world cup being held in South Africa. I also think he would have made the full springboks squad this year. Future superstar of world rugby.
 
Mint Condition said:
The Highlanders comeback coincided with Goosen going off injured (he's now out for 4 months). Very unfortunate for him just before the under 20's world cup being held in South Africa. I also think he would have made the full springboks squad this year. Future superstar of world rugby.
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What was worse for him was that it was pretty innocuous after scoring a ripper try. You don't usually suffer a long term injury putting the ball down to score with no one else on you, even if you do land on the ball like he did.

The two missed goals by Ebersohn proved costly. The last one was regulation too.
 
Ice-Wolf said:
So what did everyone think of the Rebels game last night? I couldn't watch it because i had to work but from the media reports if they can keep playing like that they should be a real force at home.
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It was a very entertaining game. Hopefully the rebels can play like that more often. About time they realise if you're not going to win the comp, you may as well go down swinging. Defence was pretty poor in the first half but tbf there was also some nice attack from both teams. Kurtley Beale played really well at 10. Will be interesting to see what the Wallabies selectors do for the tests in June.

Luke Jones was great for the rebels as well (apart from getting sin binned)...will have to come into Wallabies contention. And the lock on debut, Neville looked a good prospect too. The rebels have potential...they just keep nodding off at important times. Kingi and Phipps kicking the ball away with 2-3 minutes left when a converted try would have won them the game was just stupid. Good to see Mortlock back on the field though.
 
As I've said before, the Waratahs attack isn't good enough. They had more of the ball and just couldn't create many opportunities. There's nothing deceptive or quick about the way they attack. Their game sucks.

I was watching the match with a mate who said 'you know it's an Australian derby as both teams kick away all their turnover ball.'

The Brumbies are nothing special IMO, but they're solid and they use the ball with purpose. They get through their phases well and have a few moves up their sleeve. Lealiifano is a big blow for them though. The Wallabies depth at 10 is also starting to look very thin at the moment!! I'd go for Beale now for sure. Fingers crossed he stays healthy and uninjured.
 
Bryce Lawrence is not fit to referee a rugby game. The Matt Nicholls of rugby, absolutely incompetent and inconsistent. That hands in the ruck call he made on Gill near the end was a shocker.
 

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krisholio14 said:
You're talking about arguably the best of all time there.
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Didn't say Gill is a better player, said he's a better pilferer. Gill is nowhere near the player McCaw is. McCaw is the complete deal, Gill is still very much an incomplete player, you could argue a one-trick pony, but he's better than anyone I've seen at pilfering. His speed and accuracy is just... unbelievable.
 
I think you're going a little over board there Lions. He made what, 1 or 2 turnovers from pilfering in the Crusader's match today but also gave away what turned out to be the match winning penalty with 8 minutes left.

I thought the call was correct. Gill went for it once, missed the ball, and on the 2nd attempt at the grab the ruck was already formed. Penalty for hands in the ruck thus fair enough. There's very fine margins when it comes to pilfering and perhaps it was not a risk worth taking when up by 2 with 8 minutes left and the opposition attacking right in front, 22 metres out. Especially as the reds defence had held up so well.

For the record I'd have Brussow first when it comes to pilfering.
 
Mint Condition said:
I think you're going a little over board there Lions. He made what, 1 or 2 turnovers from pilfering in the Crusader's match today but also gave away what turned out to be the match winning penalty with 8 minutes left.

I thought the call was correct. Gill went for it once, missed the ball, and on the 2nd attempt at the grab the ruck was already formed. Penalty for hands in the ruck thus fair enough. There's very fine margins when it comes to pilfering and perhaps it was not a risk worth taking when up by 2 with 8 minutes left and the opposition attacking right in front, 22 metres out. Especially as the reds defence had held up so well.

For the record I'd have Brussow first when it comes to pilfering.
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I counted 5 turnovers including the 2 penalties. Having watched Gill throughout his junior career I'll admit that will tend to be extremely biased, but I'll still stand by my comment.:D

His accuracy and speed at the breakdown is unrivalled. In today's game, the traditional pilferer is becoming extinct and to have someone like Gill who can beat the laws on merit is just refreshing. Brussow is not the player that he was a few years ago with all the rule changes.

Lawrence made the wrong call 100%. Gill had first rights to the ball as tackler and the player held on to the ball. It's a penalty to the Reds 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the precedent Lawrence had set all game, the Ioane decision was truly bizarre... Crusaders were gifted 9 points. Lawrence needs to retire for the good of the game, there were some mind-boggling calls. On one occasion the Crusaders hooker popped out of the scrum twice and Lawrence calls a scrum reset. Next scrum, the Reds hooker pops out because Ben Franks has placed his hand on the ground (which is illegal) and calls a penalty to the Saders. Ridiculous. On another occasion the assistant referee tells Bryce that Ben Franks has placed his hand on the ground, ignores it and the scrum collapses and gives a penalty to the Saders. The other really bad call was the Ioane penalty, how the hell can you release the ball when you don't even have the opportunity? Makes the Gill penalty all the more puzzling.
 
I'm pretty sure he was tackler assist in that penalty. I watched the replay at the time pretty closely...he tried to grab the ball the first time, but actually missed it as he came up...the 2nd attempt he got a hold of the ball but by then the ruck had obviously formed and you can't use hands in the ruck. It was a risk that wasn't necessary and because on that occasion he wasn't accurate (he legitimately missed the first grab at the ball), he probably cost the reds the game.

One of my pet peeves is when guys flop over the ball in a supposed pilfering attempt but actually don't make a real effort to pick up the ball - a lot of the time because they're not supporting their own body weight. It's like players bluffing referees to blow a holding on penalty against the attacking team...and it works a hell of a lot. I don't think Gill's attempt was exactly like that, but while he was in position at the right time, he genuinely missed the ball as he tried to come up...it wasn't because the crusader's player was holding on that first time, he just got his hands in the wrong position.

Lawrence made a couple of bad calls, but he wasn't that bad in this game IMO. A lot of big calls he got right. In the end I thought the Crusaders were the better team and deserved the win. The reds were pushing the boundaries throughout the game and duly got penalised a lot. They've become a real dour, grinding team this year. Their attack without Quade is almost as bad as the waratahs.
 
Mint Condition said:
As I've said before, the Waratahs attack isn't good enough. They had more of the ball and just couldn't create many opportunities. There's nothing deceptive or quick about the way they attack. Their game sucks.

I was watching the match with a mate who said 'you know it's an Australian derby as both teams kick away all their turnover ball.'

The Brumbies are nothing special IMO, but they're solid and they use the ball with purpose. They get through their phases well and have a few moves up their sleeve. Lealiifano is a big blow for them though. The Wallabies depth at 10 is also starting to look very thin at the moment!! I'd go for Beale now for sure. Fingers crossed he stays healthy and uninjured.
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The Waratahs attack is fine, the issue is our so called "star" forward pack, is getting smashed every week, we have girls like Mumm playing every week and sucking bad.The other issue is Adam Ashley Cooper, put him in a position and leave him there and well if Kingsston every plays centre again, shoot me instead please!

As for the no10...I would go with O'Connor and Barnes in the midfield, not fussed which one plays 10. I would consider Mike Harris (if available) at 12 though as we need a gun goalkicker. Beale is a fullback.
 
bombersno1 said:
The Waratahs attack is fine, the issue is our so called "star" forward pack, is getting smashed every week, we have girls like Mumm playing every week and sucking bad.The other issue is Adam Ashley Cooper, put him in a position and leave him there and well if Kingsston every plays centre again, shoot me instead please!

As for the no10...I would go with O'Connor and Barnes in the midfield, not fussed which one plays 10. I would consider Mike Harris (if available) at 12 though as we need a gun goalkicker. Beale is a fullback.
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O'Connor is out for the Welsh series as far as I'm aware. Beale is possibly the best 10 as well as best 15 available at the moment. The question is whether the next best 15 is better than the next best 10.

And I disagree with you very strongly about the Waratahs attack. They look like they have no idea what they're doing with the ball most of the time. One out forward runs, poor passing, running at players rather than gaps, kicking the ball away off every turnover and when they have overlaps. When they do use width they just shift it out with no deception and without guys running good lines at pace. Sure, the lack of mobility in the forward pack is a big contributor to all this, but it isn't the only problem.
 

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Mint Condition said:
I'm pretty sure he was tackler assist in that penalty. I watched the replay at the time pretty closely...he tried to grab the ball the first time, but actually missed it as he came up...the 2nd attempt he got a hold of the ball but by then the ruck had obviously formed and you can't use hands in the ruck. It was a risk that wasn't necessary and because on that occasion he wasn't accurate (he legitimately missed the first grab at the ball), he probably cost the reds the game.

One of my pet peeves is when guys flop over the ball in a supposed pilfering attempt but actually don't make a real effort to pick up the ball - a lot of the time because they're not supporting their own body weight. It's like players bluffing referees to blow a holding on penalty against the attacking team...and it works a hell of a lot. I don't think Gill's attempt was exactly like that, but while he was in position at the right time, he genuinely missed the ball as he tried to come up...it wasn't because the crusader's player was holding on that first time, he just got his hands in the wrong position.

Lawrence made a couple of bad calls, but he wasn't that bad in this game IMO. A lot of big calls he got right. In the end I thought the Crusaders were the better team and deserved the win. The reds were pushing the boundaries throughout the game and duly got penalised a lot. They've become a real dour, grinding team this year. Their attack without Quade is almost as bad as the waratahs.
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I can't say that I agree. Finally watched the replay and the ball was dragged in by Tom Taylor. It's a penalty for the Reds everyday of the week. With that being said, I guess it's a bit of karma for the Reds. Richie McCaw was almost in an identical position last year and the Reds got the win.

I thought the Reds clearly outplayed the Crusaders. Reds forwards had the upper hand all game and if it wasn't for Bryce Lawrence and some inaccurate goalkicking, the Reds would have won.

Mint you can't seriously think that Bryce wasn't bad in the game? Even Justin Marshall thought some of the penalties weren't there. Says it all really.
 
Hard to say a pack of forwards had the upper hand when they got destroyed in the scrum.

And yeah, I thought Bryce Lawrence made some mistakes but no more than you see in most other games of rugby. He's just an easy target since last year's RWC quarter final. He's not the best ref, but he's okay.

Crusaders looked a lot more dangerous all game, and the reds were pushing the boundaries of the law to stop them from scoring tries. The crusaders were also below par, dropping a lot of ball etc, but I still thought they played more of the rugby.
 
Mint Condition said:
Hard to say a pack of forwards had the upper hand when they got destroyed in the scrum.

And yeah, I thought Bryce Lawrence made some mistakes but no more than you see in most other games of rugby. He's just an easy target since last year's RWC quarter final. He's not the best ref, but he's okay.

Crusaders looked a lot more dangerous all game, and the reds were pushing the boundaries of the law to stop them from scoring tries. The crusaders were also below par, dropping a lot of ball etc, but I still thought they played more of the rugby.
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You can't say that when Ben Franks was clearly using an illegal manoeuvre. In nearly every scrum he was using his hand to prop himself up. You've also got to remember this illegal move led to a penalty for the Saders when the Reds were 5m out from the tryline just before half-time. The fact that Lawrence & his 2 assistants didn't pick it up almost proves my point that Lawrence cost the Reds the game (add to that the other penalties and blunders).

If you seriously think that Lawrence makes the same amount of mistakes as a average referee you clearly haven't seen enough of him. Every ruck/maul/scrum is like a lottery. Rarely gets it correct.
 
C'mon man, the Crusaders scrum was obviously stronger. Horwill even said as much after the game. The hand on the ground is just a pedantic rule that was only brought in because one of the Italian props used to do it to help him bore into the side. But most guys just do it if their bind slips for half a second of stability. Thankfully it hasn't been getting penalised much all season by anyone.

Lawrence wouldn't be refereeing at this level if he made more mistakes than other super rugby referees. There's a comprehensive review process taken after every game by people that know the laws much better than anyone posting here and he's still around.

If you put a mask on him and you didn't know who it was, I really doubt he'd get the same amount of criticism.
 
Mint Condition said:
C'mon man, the Crusaders scrum was obviously stronger. Horwill even said as much after the game. The hand on the ground is just a pedantic rule that was only brought in because one of the Italian props used to do it to help him bore into the side. But most guys just do it if their bind slips for half a second of stability. Thankfully it hasn't been getting penalised much all season by anyone.

Lawrence wouldn't be refereeing at this level if he made more mistakes than other super rugby referees. There's a comprehensive review process taken after every game by people that know the laws much better than anyone posting here and he's still around.

If you put a mask on him and you didn't know who it was, I really doubt he'd get the same amount of criticism.
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I thought this aswell until a friend who used to be a prop lashed out at me. Apparently it gives massive advantage. From my understanding putting a hand on the ground enables the prop to leverage themselves and ,as you said, it helps them bore into the side, causing the hooker/prop to pop out of the scrum. I understand that sometimes a prop may put a hand out to help regain balance, but this wasn't on one occasion. Happened almost at every scrum. I doubt Horwill knew what was going on.

Just some of Lawrences highlights from the game (all from memory), just to emphasise my point:

First Half:
Owen Franks pops out of scrum first. Call: Penalty Crusaders (3 Points). The Correct Call: Penalty Reds.

Reds called for not rolling away. Call: Penalty Crusaders (3 Points). Correct Call: No penalty, the ball was already out.

Digby Ioane called for not releasing. Call Penalty Crusaders Correct Call: No penalty, didn't even get a chance to release let alone hold the ball. The most bizarre call of the night considering the Gill decision.

Digby Ioane chases the ball and is onside, all the other Reds players have retired. Call: Penalty Crusaders. Correct Call: No Penalty. This one really irked me, Lawrence told the Reds to retired and they did. Still called the penalty.

Ben Franks hand on the ground (at least 3 times). Call: A penalty on one occasion and no penalties on others. Correct Call: Penalty to Reds.

This is all from the first half and from memory. Imagine if I was to dissect the whole game. There are some shockers like the knock on decision where Bryce deems it to come off the knee, the blatant obstruction from McCaw on Gill, the penalty for "something", the Gill decision at the death, the free kick for being to slow at the lineout (biggest wtf?!) and McCaw constantly on the wrong side of the ruck. I seriously can't see where "Lawrence is half-decent" is coming from, but this isn't the first time he's been this bad. The World Cup Quarterfinals wasn't the first time either, this has been going on for a long time.

I've probably gone a bit overboard. A smashing by Essendon and a close loss to the Saders has really gotten to me. :eek: haha. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
 

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