Society/Culture Support for Big Australia falls dramatically.

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Craven Morehead

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Australia is a very large island and I never said all farms have no trees but many have been cleared of their vegetation.

I didn't say it was a bad thing that Australia produced more than it consumed domestically.

Politicians talk about damming Northern Australian rivers due to the massive amount of rain each wet season.

Brazil is a very different country to Australia. The Amazon has been progressively cleared over several decades.
Well you certainly don't know much about farming.
Your initial statement was that agricultural land would be decreasing.
I've given you just a few examples both in Australia and overseas which disprove your statement.
I'm asking you to back that up with some facts.
 
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Well you certainly don't know much about farming.
Your initial statement was that agricultural land would be decreasing.
I've given you just a few examples both in Australia and overseas which disprove your statement.
I'm asking you to back that up with some facts.

You are confusing what technology can do to farming with politicians wanting to change how Northern Australia farmland is used because most of the land in question is already used for livestock grazing so it isn't entirely about increasing farmland.

The situation in Brazil is more about economic development and because it is a poorer country then they would probably use more traditional farming methods.
 

Craven Morehead

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You are confusing what technology can do to farming with politicians wanting to change how Northern Australia farmland is used because most of the land in question is already used for livestock grazing so it isn't entirely about increasing farmland.

The situation in Brazil is more about economic development and because it is a poorer country then they would probably use more traditional farming methods.

This is going nowhere.
You clearly have no real understanding of the issue.
 
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This is going nowhere.
You clearly have no real understanding of the issue.

I think its more a case of you wanting to believe your viewpoint to be right.

Do you really think someone like Joyce would be up to speed on technology when he doesn't even accept the need to deal with climate change.

The Conservatives have long dreamed of damming Northern Australian rivers, it is something the Nats consider an article of faith.

By damming rivers it would potentially enable greater irrigation that might enable land to be used to grow crops for the Asian market, but only time will tell if it can work because the Orr River scheme wasn't a huge success.
 

Craven Morehead

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I think its more a case of you wanting to believe your viewpoint to be right.

Do you really think someone like Joyce would be up to speed on technology when he doesn't even accept the need to deal with climate change.

The Conservatives have long dreamed of damming Northern Australian rivers, it is something the Nats consider an article of faith.

By damming rivers it would potentially enable greater irrigation that might enable land to be used to grow crops for the Asian market, but only time will tell if it can work because the Orr River scheme wasn't a huge success.

WTF are you on about talking about Joyce, climate change etc?
Again, you have nfi what you are talking about and just want to push an agenda.
I was curious about your initial statement, but now it is crystal clear what your angle is.
 
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WTF are you on about talking about Joyce, climate change etc?
Again, you have nfi what you are talking about and just want to push an agenda.
I was curious about your initial statement, but now it is crystal clear what your angle is.

LOL as I wrote earlier I don't do talking points and my only agenda around here is the Essendon FC.

The Nats and the idea of damming rivers policy was last pushed by Joyce when he was leader.

So unless you can tell me what you think the agenda is, I suggest you stop being silly.
 

Magus

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I think its more a case of you wanting to believe your viewpoint to be right.

Do you really think someone like Joyce would be up to speed on technology when he doesn't even accept the need to deal with climate change.

The Conservatives have long dreamed of damming Northern Australian rivers, it is something the Nats consider an article of faith.

By damming rivers it would potentially enable greater irrigation that might enable land to be used to grow crops for the Asian market, but only time will tell if it can work because the Orr River scheme wasn't a huge success.

You keep saying technology but haven't given any specific examples.
 

Craven Morehead

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LOL as I wrote earlier I don't do talking points and my only agenda around here is the Essendon FC.

The Nats and the idea of damming rivers policy was last pushed by Joyce when he was leader.

So unless you can tell me what you think the agenda is, I suggest you stop being silly.
oh jesus, if you must continue to politicise this...
The current policy was released in August last year.
Barnaby got the arse in February.

The point I was trying to make, without being political, is that agriculture is actually increasing due to global demand for food.
You can be pedantic if you want, but if you don't think 1,000 acres of irrigated country is going to produce less than 1,000 acres of grazing land, well, I can't help you.
By the way, it is ORD, and Stage 2 is well under way.
 
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oh jesus, if you must continue to politicise this...
The current policy was released in August last year.
Barnaby got the arse in February.

The point I was trying to make, without being political, is that agriculture is actually increasing due to global demand for food.
You can be pedantic if you want, but if you don't think 1,000 acres of irrigated country is going to produce less than 1,000 acres of grazing land, well, I can't help you.
By the way, it is ORD, and Stage 2 is well under way.

Well I didn't politicise it either, the Nationals and other conservatives have long supported the idea of damming Northern Australian rivers and there was a policy taken to the 2013 election when Joyce was leader which set out to create x number of dams, that is hardly a partisan statement and of course production is increasing with demand as it should but the point and I will respond to the above comment later, farmland use is often changing as technology changes, that can include being more productive with existing land or better aligning land with use.
 

Craven Morehead

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Well I didn't politicise it either, the Nationals and other conservatives have long supported the idea of damming Northern Australian rivers and there was a policy taken to the 2013 election when Joyce was leader which set out to create x number of dams, that is hardly a partisan statement and of course production is increasing with demand as it should but the point and I will respond to the above comment later, farmland use is often changing as technology changes, that can include being more productive with existing land or better aligning land with use.

You keep spouting technology and another poster has called you on this but...crickets
 

Craven Morehead

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Over that 40 years there would have been many changes, just as they will be over the next 40 years.
no s**t sherlock.
You're all over this.
I've given you numerous example of how you are wrong.
But you're going to Doctor Google to bone up on the topic.
I'm done here.
 
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Again, because Seeds seems reluctant to answer that claim, I call upon you to do so.
Not reluctant. Have been busy with life stuff.

First i didnt say we had yet hit peak agriculture land. I said we soon will and we are clearly on that track.

Borlaug took evolution into his own hands, crossing thousands of strains of wheat and then selecting the offspring with dwarfed stalks, high yields, resistance to rust, and an insensitivity to day length. After several years of this “mind-warpingly tedious work,” Borlaug evolved strains of wheat (and then corn and rice) with many times the yield of their ancestors. By combining these strains with modern techniques of irrigation, fertilization, and crop management, Borlaug turned Mexico and then India, Pakistan, and other famine-prone countries into grain exporters almost overnight. The Green Revolution continues—it has been called “Africa’s best-kept secret”—driven by improvements in sorghum, millet, cassava, and tubers. Thanks to the Green Revolution, the world needs less than a third of the land it used to need to produce a given amount of food. Another way of stating the bounty is that between 1961 and 2009 the amount of land used to grow food increased by 12 percent, but the amount of food that was grown increased by 300 percent.

Some forest lamd is however already returning
"Now that farms have receded in some parts of the world, temperate forests have been bouncing back".
Norberg 2016. According to the UN FAO’s Global Forest Resources Assessment 2015, “Net forest area has increased in over 60 countries and territories, most of which are in the temperate and boreal zones.” http:// www.fao.org/ resources/ infographics/ infographics-details/ en/ c/ 325836/.

The environmental scientist Jesse Ausubel has estimated that the world has reached Peak Farmland: we may never again need as much as we use today. (Ausubel, Wernick, & Waggoner 2012.) from Pinker 2017 Enlightenment Now...
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Excellent point - where was the survey? In country towns struggling to survive I'm sure they'd welcome people with open arms. Polling in a major city on one of the many days the public transport system failed in Melbourne or Sydney would no doubt elicit a different response.

People care more about amenity than words like 'high' or 'low' immigration which are neither defined nor substantiated.

The problem with the current set up is all the capitals, naturally, are where all the ports are, more or less.

I'd actually like to see one of the state governments, doesn't matter which one or where, seriously consider just starting another city from scratch. Plan it out and try and future proof it as much as possible. Full renewables, fibre, laid out to make public transport simple and upgradeable, easy and direct access from the state's ports and key road transport corridors etc.

If you've never seen it, there is a documentary around somewhere regarding the establishment of New York City. They basically levelled Manhattan Island which was hilly and then gridded it.
 

its free real estate

it's free real estate
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The problem with the current set up is all the capitals, naturally, are where all the ports are, more or less.

I'd actually like to see one of the state governments, doesn't matter which one or where, seriously consider just starting another city from scratch. Plan it out and try and future proof it as much as possible. Full renewables, fibre, laid out to make public transport simple and upgradeable, easy and direct access from the state's ports and key road transport corridors etc.

If you've never seen it, there is a documentary around somewhere regarding the establishment of New York City. They basically levelled Manhattan Island which was hilly and then gridded it.
The Indian Whyalla guy has big ambitions, I hope he succeeds.
 

Craven Morehead

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Not reluctant. Have been busy with life stuff.

First i didnt say we had yet hit peak agriculture land. I said we soon will and we are clearly on that track.

Borlaug took evolution into his own hands, crossing thousands of strains of wheat and then selecting the offspring with dwarfed stalks, high yields, resistance to rust, and an insensitivity to day length. After several years of this “mind-warpingly tedious work,” Borlaug evolved strains of wheat (and then corn and rice) with many times the yield of their ancestors. By combining these strains with modern techniques of irrigation, fertilization, and crop management, Borlaug turned Mexico and then India, Pakistan, and other famine-prone countries into grain exporters almost overnight. The Green Revolution continues—it has been called “Africa’s best-kept secret”—driven by improvements in sorghum, millet, cassava, and tubers. Thanks to the Green Revolution, the world needs less than a third of the land it used to need to produce a given amount of food. Another way of stating the bounty is that between 1961 and 2009 the amount of land used to grow food increased by 12 percent, but the amount of food that was grown increased by 300 percent.

Some forest lamd is however already returning
"Now that farms have receded in some parts of the world, temperate forests have been bouncing back".
Norberg 2016. According to the UN FAO’s Global Forest Resources Assessment 2015, “Net forest area has increased in over 60 countries and territories, most of which are in the temperate and boreal zones.” http:// www.fao.org/ resources/ infographics/ infographics-details/ en/ c/ 325836/.

The environmental scientist Jesse Ausubel has estimated that the world has reached Peak Farmland: we may never again need as much as we use today. (Ausubel, Wernick, & Waggoner 2012.) from Pinker 2017 Enlightenment Now...

Make a distinction here for me.
What exactly is farmalnd?
Is grazing land considered farmland?
Why is the Amazon constantly being deforested?
Why is there such a strong push to open up the north of Australia into irrigated, high intensity agricultural land? Why do we now have centre-pivot irrigators working in what used to be marginal grazing land in the Pilbara of WA?
Farmers don't spend millions of dollars on developments because they DON'T have a viable market.
The Mekong Delta, as an example, is widely considered the food bowl of SE Asia. However it is under growing pressure from the Chinese with regards to water security in the lower, most fertile reaches. There is also a growing concern over acid sulphate soils in the region. If that collapses or, heaven forbid, conflict once again ravages the region, what then?
 

Mike Smyth

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When i started in the IT industry 15+ years ago the number of trainees and graduates made up a healthy chunk of the industry. Now they are almost non-existent given companies, and especially govt agencies, preference for overseas workers. I'm staggered by the number of overseas workers who have been placed in the industry in the last 5+ years. Most of the entry level IT jobs, especially in govt, have predominately been taken up by people from India. Historically these jobs would have been starting points for young Australians wanting to begin a career in the industry.

Whatever the govts immigration figures are for the last decade I believe they have been deliberately understated. If the status quo continues you have to fear for the future of Australia's youth.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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But any of those environmental damages created from immigration means there is less of it happening overseas and frankly we take better care of our environment then most countries overseas so people coming here probably improves the global situation.

We have no major water problems. Aren't all our dams pretty full. We can always build more and their is heaps of water in the north. Other countries have water problems. Australia doesn't.

You forgot to put these on the end of the highlighted, :$:D:eek::oops:o_O:drunk::rolleyes:
 
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You keep saying technology but haven't given any specific examples.

A few examples

Soil and crop sensors

More farm equipment today is being outfitted with smart sensors that can read everything from plant health and water needs in the crop to nitrogen levels in the soil. The sensors then enable on-the-go application of inputs based on real-time field conditions.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=3

Biologicals

Expect to see more biological pest control and growth enhancements as farmers look for more environmentally friendly and cost-efficient crop inputs. Advanced technologies, such as high-throughput screening, are also helping companies to quickly multiply beneficial organisms, thus driving development of new biologicals.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=7

Hyper precision

Precision agriculture technologies are becoming more robust and more precise, ushering in an era of hyper precision.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=8

Automated grain off-loading

Navigation systems that automatically guide grain carts alongside combines to improve on-the-go cart filling may be just around the corner. The same concept also could soon be in play with forage-harvesting systems

“These systems will make it easier to fill a grain cart or wagon automatically,” says John Fulton, a precision agriculture specialist at Auburn University. “I think a 10 to 15% improvement in harvest efficiency through improved off-loading is achievable. It may be even higher for some folks. Improved efficiency on that scale could have a tremendous impact financially.”

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=9

Drought-resistance traits

The decades of work to develop drought-resistant plants are finally producing results. The first corn hybrids marketed for drought conditions are now being sold. These hybrids use natural gene selection and are targeted to the western Corn Belt where water is a key limiting factor. Companies promise yields will be more stable with these hybrids.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=19

These are just some of the technologies that will in time improve the productive farm capacity enabling farmers to increase farm production without having the push the land to the extremes as is sometimes the case today.
 
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