Autopsy Swans beat Dockers by 3 points

[SwansProudly]

 

[Kiama Chris]

I reckon Mills would give us way more than Hayward as a medium forward.

But also, if the price of a medium forward is having someone like Hayward in the team, I'd rather just not pay. Get creative and structure the forward line differently. There's nothing Hayward does that Mills or McDonald even couldn't do when they return.

Mills probably, Logan not so sure. Hayward is agile, Logan less so. Hayward in form is a different animal to Logan in form. I think it's more a matter of being out of form.

 

[Jewelsbon]

Mills probably, Logan not so sure. Hayward is agile, Logan less so. Hayward in form is a different animal to Logan in form. I think it's more a matter of being out of form.

Can't say I agree with you there Chris, I think Logan is very agile and mobile for a big bloke.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Can't say I agree with you there Chris, I think Logan is very agile and mobile for a big bloke.

Each to their own.
In form I like both of them very much but don't see them as equivalent.
Draftguru reckons Will is 185/75 and Logan 196/86 though I reckon Logan is bigger than that now (Will too probably but not heaps).
I think Will is at his ceiling but Logan isn't yet.
While I agree that Logan is very mobile I don't think he's anywhere near as agile as Will.

 

[giantsully]

He was good against Freo

I don't think Olly has been as bad as some of on here have made out, but for someone of his skills, his touch and disposal have been way down on where they should be. Three kicks from Sunday come to mind: I50 pass that falls short of target by 10 m; soon after, shot at goal that was well within his skillset (and would have provided some great momentum); his hit up pass to Heeney in the dying seconds that enabled Freo another entry. All very important kicks, all executed well below his best.

He'll get better but it is frustrating seeing where he's at, including the lack of composure.

 

[RubbaDuck]

Better be doing solo goal kicking sessions for a week it’s terrible conversion

Hayward's very very good when he is good. In addition to scoring I like it when he also has the job of negating an intercept/rebound opposition defender. He's got speed and he can play taller than he is. If he can snag a goal or two and hurt the other way that's a bonus, but at least we're sure of getting good value from him as he helps teammates to get at the ball.

We've all seen his value when he's really on. I say persist but tweak his role

 

[RampeRobe]

I don't think Olly has been as bad as some of on here have made out, but for someone of his skills, his touch and disposal have been way down on where they should be. Three kicks from Sunday come to mind: I50 pass that falls short of target by 10 m; soon after, shot at goal that was well within his skillset (and would have provided some great momentum); his hit up pass to Heeney in the dying seconds that enabled Freo another entry. All very important kicks, all executed well below his best.

He'll get better but it is frustrating seeing where he's at, including the lack of composure.

That last pass to Heeney was Lloyd, not Ollie, if that’s the one you’re talking about.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Hayward's very very good when he is good. In addition to scoring I like it when he also has the job of negating an intercept/rebound opposition defender. He's got speed and he can play taller than he is. If he can snag a goal or two and hurt the other way that's a bonus, but at least we're sure of getting good value from him as he helps teammates to get at the ball.

We've all seen his value when he's really on. I say persist but tweak his role

Sure but as a forward you can’t be fluffing chances that’s your main role that’s it

 

[RampeRobe]

Sure but as a forward you can’t be fluffing chances that’s your main role that’s it

I think you need to reassess your standard levels.. your assessment of swans players reeks of someone who has never played the game and has no understanding of pressure or the game itself, and the fact Will’s role is arguably the hardest in football..

Very harshly rated on here for a bloke that kicked 40 last year..

 

[caesar88]

I think you need to reassess your standard levels.. your assessment of swans players reeks of someone who has never played the game and has no understanding of pressure or the game itself, and the fact Will’s role is arguably the hardest in football..

Very harshly rated on here for a bloke that kicked 40 last year..

I just don't think I can agree that Hayward's is the hardest role in footy. In its totality 40+ goals is a good return for any player, but broken down week by week, if getting a dozen disposals, not even 3 tackles and not even 2 goals a game gets you a pass mark, I just don't think that's a hard role.

I think it's the kind of role that depends a lot on how capable the player actually is. I think if Hayward were stronger he'd be significantly better at his role. He'd be able to create more opportunities for himself via forward 50 tackles and 1v1 marks. But 1 tackle inside 50 and not even 1 mark inside 50 per year won't help much. So I think he limits the opportunities he gets, and it can lead to anonymous showings where it feels like hard work for him.

I just want him to develop some core and upper body strength. It would help him so much. I don't get why he's so immune to putting any size on whatsoever.

 

[RampeRobe]

I just don't think I can agree that Hayward's is the hardest role in footy. In its totality 40+ goals is a good return for any player, but broken down week by week, if getting a dozen disposals, not even 3 tackles and not even 2 goals a game gets you a pass mark, I just don't think that's a hard role.

I think it's the kind of role that depends a lot on how capable the player actually is. I think if Hayward were stronger he'd be significantly better at his role. He'd be able to create more opportunities for himself via forward 50 tackles and 1v1 marks. But 1 tackle inside 50 and not even 1 mark inside 50 per year won't help much. So I think he limits the opportunities he gets, and it can lead to anonymous showings where it feels like hard work for him.

I just want him to develop some core and upper body strength. It would help him so much. I don't get why he's so immune to putting any size on whatsoever.

I did say arguably, so that’s fair. It would be a stretch to call him a high half forward, I wouldn’t even know how to describe his role as it changes so often, but he busts his ass week in week out and I’d imagine most clubs would be happy for a forward to have that output.

As far as his strength goes, if he hasn’t got it now I don’t think he’s going to. Must be his genetic makeup to remain so wiry.

He’s definitely a confidence player as well, so the earlier he’s involved in a game, the better his output usually is. I have no statistics to back that up whatsoever either.. lol

 

[caesar88]

I did say arguably, so that’s fair. It would be a stretch to call him a high half forward, I wouldn’t even know how to describe his role as it changes so often, but he busts his ass week in week out and I’d imagine most clubs would be happy for a forward to have that output.

As far as his strength goes, if he hasn’t got it now I don’t think he’s going to. Must be his genetic makeup to remain so wiry.

He’s definitely a confidence player as well, so the earlier he’s involved in a game, the better his output usually is. I have no statistics to back that up whatsoever either.. lol

I completely agree he busts his ass week in week out. It's by far my favourite attribute of his. I just don't think he has the body for the role & position he plays. I feel like a broken record when I talk about the fact he's such a stringy beanpole of an athlete, but I think it really is the main thing that holds him back. And I think it always will. So I don't know how we'll ever get out of this cycle of 'good Hayward/bad Hayward'. But I want to get out of it. I'm beyond over it.

 

[Kiama Chris]

I completely agree he busts his ass week in week out. It's by far my favourite attribute of his. I just don't think he has the body for the role & position he plays. I feel like a broken record when I talk about the fact he's such a stringy beanpole of an athlete, but I think it really is the main thing that holds him back. And I think it always will. So I don't know how we'll ever get out of this cycle of 'good Hayward/bad Hayward'. But I want to get out of it. I'm beyond over it.

In his draft year he kicked 5 goals in a losing GF (SANFL reserves IIRC) that Toby Pink kicked the winning goal. He was (and is) very wiry and hard for his build but has never added any bulk. As has been observed, his form goes up and down somewhat but his best is 2 goals a game and decent forward pressure, which is plenty for his role. It's eliminating his worst that's the issue. I doubt that it's physical (mostly) so getting the best out of him consistently is something for himself, his teammates and the coaches. I doubt that a run in the 2s is the answer. More likely the opposite .

 

[caesar88]

In his draft year he kicked 5 goals in a losing GF (SANFL reserves IIRC) that Toby Pink kicked the winning goal. He was (and is) very wiry and hard for his build but has never added any bulk. As has been observed, his form goes up and down somewhat but his best is 2 goals a game and decent forward pressure, which is plenty for his role. It's eliminating his worst that's the issue. I doubt that it's physical (mostly) so getting the best out of him consistently is something for himself, his teammates and the coaches. I doubt that a run in the 2s is the answer. More likely the opposite .

If true that last year was his best season, then that concerns me, because he is likely never gonna have it that easy again. Our forward line was flying and supply was as good and dynamic as he'll ever get.

Without that, he has to make those opportunities for himself more. For me it has to be by tackling and marking better inside 50. Tackle & pressure harder, and compete harder in marking contests. But he can't do these really, because he just isn't strong enough.

So I have no idea what Hayward offers if the team is not flying and making Hayward's job easier for him.

 

[Kiama Chris]

If true that last year was his best season, then that concerns me, because he is likely never gonna have it that easy again. Our forward line was flying and supply was as good and dynamic as he'll ever get.

Without that, he has to make those opportunities for himself more. For me it has to be by tackling and marking better inside 50. Tackle & pressure harder, and compete harder in marking contests. But he can't do these really, because he just isn't strong enough.

So I have no idea what Hayward offers if the team is not flying and making Hayward's job easier for him.

So if I understand your view correctly, Hayward's contribution is limited essentially by his size and strength. Perhaps he is playing the wrong role? Should he be playing more as a small than medium forward? Maybe Logan is more suited to the medium type role? Do you think we have anyone else who could fill that role? Mitchell is a good size. Florent would have the same strength issue I think. Mills is big and strong enough I would imagine. We've drafted Bowman but he's pretty much the same build and is likely to take a while at best. So who improves us in this department?
Edit: Chamberlain

 

[caesar88]

So if I understand your view correctly, Hayward's contribution is limited essentially by his size and strength. Perhaps he is playing the wrong role? Should he be playing more as a small than medium forward? Maybe Logan is more suited to the medium type role? Do you think we have anyone else who could fill that role? Mitchell is a good size. Florent would have the same strength issue I think. Mills is big and strong enough I would imagine. We've drafted Bowman but he's pretty much the same build and is likely to take a while at best. So who improves us in this department?
Edit: Chamberlain

You're understanding my view perfectly KC. I think McDonald or even Mills would do better in Hayward's role. They're the two I would eye off for that half ground level impact/half aerial impact/potential defensive forward role that I THINK we've been trying to make Hayward work in. Then we cross our fingers and hope Bowman works out.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I find it hard to judge Haywood as my understanding is that he does a lot off the ball to close down space when we are transitioning to defence, but I don’t really know what specifics that involves.

When his team mates get asked who is underrated in the team, I think they usually say him and Rowbottom, no?

Edit: what what little I do understand, I think Haywood’s role is like a high winger - which would mean he needs a lightest frame to cover the distance.

 

[Punts]

Not defending Hayward but mills and McDonald wouldn’t be able to put defencivve pressure on like Hayward does imo.

Mills is slow and his body wouldn’t cope

 

[Kiama Chris]

You're understanding my view perfectly KC. I think McDonald or even Mills would do better in Hayward's role. They're the two I would eye off for that half ground level impact/half aerial impact/potential defensive forward role that I THINK we've been trying to make Hayward work in. Then we cross our fingers and hope Bowman works out.

IF the role requires the sort of body and skills you perceive it to then I doubt that Bowman will work out as he seems to be pretty much Hayward 2.0. Chamberlain on the other hand is a different kind of animal altogether. Taller, so far a linking forward (HHF?) rather than a goalkicker, highly skilled. Max King has also been playing between midfield and forward with a degree of success. Both are more attacking than defensive players it would seem. Their performance in the Allies will bear watching.

 

[caesar88]

IF the role requires the sort of body and skills you perceive it to then I doubt that Bowman will work out as he seems to be pretty much Hayward 2.0. Chamberlain on the other hand is a different kind of animal altogether. Taller, so far a linking forward (HHF?) rather than a goalkicker, highly skilled. Max King has also been playing between midfield and forward with a degree of success. Both are more attacking than defensive players it would seem. Their performance in the Allies will bear watching.

If we're getting into U18s territory then we're already somewhat doomed as we need a solution for the here & now. Even Bowman, purely speculative at this point. I'd rather us just think outside the box and restructure/reinvent somewhat. Not sure Hayward, and Florent for that matter, will get us anywhere. Would rather us cut that chord now and try something else.

 

[Kiama Chris]

If we're getting into U18s territory then we're already somewhat doomed as we need a solution for the here & now. Even Bowman, purely speculative at this point. I'd rather us just think outside the box and restructure/reinvent somewhat. Not sure Hayward, and Florent for that matter, will get us anywhere. Would rather us cut that chord now and try something else.

Hayward 185/75
Heeney 184/80
Mills 186/80
Florent 183/74
McDonald 196/86
Warner Chad 181/80
Mitchell 187/80
Jordon 186/81
Roberts 184/80
Fox 184/84
Lohman 185/76
Ah Chee 182/71
Dunkley 189/82
McGluggage 186/77
Neale 176/81
I don't think size is the issue. Warner is the second shortest and Ah Chee the lightest of guys spending time in that area (not including Papley or Cameron). Both can find the goals pretty darned well. Heeney can outmark any of them and was AA as a medium forward, as was Chad kinda.
Find the way for both of these guys to spend more time forward like the Brissie boys did and you have your solution IMO. Hayward isn't strong enough to negate a defender properly so play him as a proper attacker. Maybe that's a role for McLean?
Structure.

 

[Del198236]

Not sure where those numbers come from.. U18s ?..
Footy wire has
Hayward 186cm 83kg
Heeney 185cm 88kg
Mills 188cm 86kg..
Stopped looking after the first three - To the eye, Hayward is much heavier than 75kg, same with Heeney and Mills.
Ah Chee @ 71kg lol.. My 14 yo son is 71kg and skinny as a rake..!!!

Anyways..
Hayward has played a role that very few people actually see and understand. Insights to his role and others is why listening to media experts in Horse, Simmo and Buckley so much more insightful.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Not sure where those numbers come from.. U18s ?..
Footy wire has
Hayward 186cm 83kg
Heeney 185cm 88kg
Mills 188cm 86kg..
Stopped looking after the first three - To the eye, Hayward is much heavier than 75kg, same with Heeney and Mills.
Ah Chee @ 71kg lol.. My 14 yo son is 71kg and skinny as a rake..!!!

Anyways..
Hayward has played a role that very few people actually see and understand. Insights to his role and others is why listening to media experts in Horse, Simmo and Buckley so much more insightful.

Draft guru. Those look more like it.

 

[caesar88]

Hayward 185/75
Heeney 184/80
Mills 186/80
Florent 183/74
McDonald 196/86
Warner Chad 181/80
Mitchell 187/80
Jordon 186/81
Roberts 184/80
Fox 184/84
Lohman 185/76
Ah Chee 182/71
Dunkley 189/82
McGluggage 186/77
Neale 176/81
I don't think size is the issue. Warner is the second shortest and Ah Chee the lightest of guys spending time in that area (not including Papley or Cameron). Both can find the goals pretty darned well. Heeney can outmark any of them and was AA as a medium forward, as was Chad kinda.
Find the way for both of these guys to spend more time forward like the Brissie boys did and you have your solution IMO. Hayward isn't strong enough to negate a defender properly so play him as a proper attacker. Maybe that's a role for McLean?
Structure.

I don't think strength is measured in cms & kgs though. Hayward is all arms and legs. As far as core strength goes he is completely lacking. It makes him extremely suspect in sticking tackles or contesting marks, both of which I think are pretty important to his success in his role.

 

[TheGoatBaron]

I don't think strength is measured in cms & kgs though. Hayward is all arms and legs. As far as core strength goes he is completely lacking. It makes him extremely suspect in sticking tackles or contesting marks, both of which I think are pretty important to his success in his role.

The core strength is a problem right throughout the club. It’s why the bigger clubs like the Lions and Cats beat us easily in the midfield. We can’t win it on speed alone. Been saying for a last few years now, none of our players ever bulk up. This is a concern for me

 

[Del198236]

I don't think strength is measured in cms & kgs though. Hayward is all arms and legs. As far as core strength goes he is completely lacking. It makes him extremely suspect in sticking tackles or contesting marks, both of which I think are pretty important to his success in his role.

Thats just incorrect
Hayward - a very good natural athlete compared to normal humans, has been working in the Swans Gym for 8 years! He has a strong core (not like Warner, Dusty etc), but strong enough to compete in the air, on the ground and stick tackles.. A Major part of his role requires running (A LOT of running) so his Gym work is likely to be focussed on core strength rather than simply bulking up

Side note - JPK wasn't allowed to do heavy weights - he was already verging on becoming too big