Swans Reserves - What to do long term

bedford

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Thread starter #1
i find it quite amazing in this day and age of modern footy that we have a reserves side that dosen't even play a game before 6th april,then plays 5 rounds then a bye and the same thing happens for the rest of the year.
so players like noggy ,richards and a few others carn't even get match practice before they resume playing.
this is not good enough as i believe we had 7 of our GF team of 2005 in the 2003 VFL GF for port melbourne,geelong also had 8 2007 GF players in the same match.does that tell you something about the standard in the VFL.i know for a fact port would have welcomed back sydney this season.
every other VFL team on the weekend played AFL listed players in VFL practice matches on the weekend,so what were our guys doing ,playing against under 18s.
comments please
 

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#2
Re: swans reserves

i find it quite amazing in this day and age of modern footy that we have a reserves side that dosen't even play a game before 6th april,then plays 5 rounds then a bye and the same thing happens for the rest of the year.
so players like noggy ,richards and a few others carn't even get match practice before they resume playing.
this is not good enough as i believe we had 7 of our GF team of 2005 in the 2003 VFL GF for port melbourne,geelong also had 8 2007 GF players in the same match.does that tell you something about the standard in the VFL.i know for a fact port would have welcomed back sydney this season.
every other VFL team on the weekend played AFL listed players in VFL practice matches on the weekend,so what were our guys doing ,playing against under 18s.
comments please
absolutely agree
it's beyond a joke that our seconds get such a raw deal in terms of
a) actually playing footy and b) playing against any kinda decent opposition
i'm not sure how we fix it in the short term, but there has to be a better way
the only thing y'can say for it is that at least it stops non-swans fans having any idea of our youth development
as proven by some of the fcking morons who make comments on the main board
 

MF

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#3
Re: swans reserves

Yeah, I completely agree Bedford, it's a joke that a professional team has to participate in such a sub-par competition. But as Rancid has pointed out, there really doesn't seem to be any reasonable alternative to it at the moment.
 

Bonz

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#4
Re: swans reserves

If collinwood can have there own vfl researves team...
And teams are willing to fly to tasmainia every week in the vfl
and tasmainia is willing to fly up to victoria every second week to play vfl


THEN WHY THE HELL DOESN'T THE SWANS HAVE A RESEARVES TEAM IN THE VFL!!!!

Would give our kids way better experience against way better opponents although we would probably never win a vfl premiureship thats not the reason we down there we would be down there to get experience into our kids...adn to get gametime against half decent players!!!

I still believe a national afl researves compertition will work with top up players from either zones or states depending on the team...
 

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#5
Re: swans reserves

It would appear that the club has made very little overture about finding a better way for our reserve players to develop. Its doing both the club and the players a disservice.
 
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Re: swans reserves

i know for a fact port would have welcomed back sydney this season.
Which is funny considering one of the reasons we didn't renew the partnership in the first place. Port might of wanted us back, but we didn't want Port and even if we did, there would of been no way the two clubs would of been able to agree to terms on a new partnership.

We wouldn't of been able to have control of our players when they are sent to Port (thus for example Roos wanted Bird played in the midfield, Port could turn around and play him in the back pocket). Plus we are limited in the number of players we can send down in a partnership deal via VFL rules, thus we would have to work out what to do with the player left over each week. Do we go the fasical Redback path again?

Plus don't even get me started on the cost of a VFL partnership, let alone a standalone VFL side.

Yes having our players in the VFL would be better than in Canberra, BUT the club certainly believes that the fact they play together in a side coached by the clubs coaches and are involved around the club the entire week is more of a benefit than a partnership with a VFL club that is costly and something the club has no control over.
 

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Re: swans reserves

Which is funny considering one of the reasons we didn't renew the partnership in the first place. Port might of wanted us back, but we didn't want Port and even if we did, there would of been no way the two clubs would of been able to agree to terms on a new partnership.

We wouldn't of been able to have control of our players when they are sent to Port (thus for example Roos wanted Bird played in the midfield, Port could turn around and play him in the back pocket). Plus we are limited in the number of players we can send down in a partnership deal via VFL rules, thus we would have to work out what to do with the player left over each week. Do we go the fasical Redback path again?

Plus don't even get me started on the cost of a VFL partnership, let alone a standalone VFL side.

Yes having our players in the VFL would be better than in Canberra, BUT the club certainly believes that the fact they play together in a side coached by the clubs coaches and are involved around the club the entire week is more of a benefit than a partnership with a VFL club that is costly and something the club has no control over.
the previous relationship was stuffed up by one of the worst coaches port ever had in dave dunbar.
swans listed players spent more time on the pine under him,also eade never even watched games.
but it was still better than the crap they are playing now.ask any of the guys that played there including o'keefe,kennelly,ablett,buchanan and lrt at least they would be playing the next 2 weeks and even could have played last week in practice matches
 

bloods01

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#8
Re: swans reserves

The whole reserves strucutre is a farce and they just signed a new deal to play in the Canberra League for an extended period. So it's here to stay. For now anyway.
 
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Re: swans reserves

the previous relationship was stuffed up by one of the worst coaches port ever had in dave dunbar.
swans listed players spent more time on the pine under him,also eade never even watched games.
What would change under Garry Ayres compared to last time?? Would he do what the Swans coaching staff tell him to do, play to our tactics, play our players in the positions we want them played in?? I doubt it....

He would still be limited to picking 12 Swans per week and that would lead to the disruption to the Port team that happened last time, when the Swans players flew in on the morning of the VFL game and that still leaves the problem of having Reserves players left over.

but it was still better than the crap they are playing now.ask any of the guys that played there including o'keefe,kennelly,ablett,buchanan and lrt
No doubt a higher quality, but we lose out on having our own coaching staff control our own players in their own team, playing the tactics and positions the club wants. Our own reserves side (regardless) gives us that, a partnership with Port (or any other VFL side) doesn't. Plus what about the likes of Malceski, Schmidt, Bird, Barlow, Jack, Laidlaw, Moore, McVeigh, Bevan and Grundy who have developed into senior players and will form the basis of our senior side for the future, via the Canberra League.

So its not all bad...just the results of the matches - remember we didn't win the Premiership in the Canberra League in 2003 or 2004 in our first two full season in the League.

at least they would be playing the next 2 weeks and even could have played last week in practice matches
Isn't the VFL only practice matches this week anyway (and next week as well)? But your right the Swans should have the reserves set up for matches in the next two weeks in anycase to make up for the fact there isn't any Canberra League matches.

But don't forget last weekend, that only rookie list players and senior listed players that had permission from the AFL COULD play. So even if we had a reserves match set up, not every player could of been available and in anycase we had a match set up that allowed those given permission the chance to get match practice.
 

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Re: swans reserves

What would change under Garry Ayres compared to last time?? Would he do what the Swans coaching staff tell him to do, play to our tactics, play our players in the positions we want them played in?? I doubt it....

He would still be limited to picking 12 Swans per week and that would lead to the disruption to the Port team that happened last time, when the Swans players flew in on the morning of the VFL game and that still leaves the problem of having Reserves players left over.



No doubt a higher quality, but we lose out on having our own coaching staff control our own players in their own team, playing the tactics and positions the club wants. Our own reserves side (regardless) gives us that, a partnership with Port (or any other VFL side) doesn't. Plus what about the likes of Malceski, Schmidt, Bird, Barlow, Jack, Laidlaw, Moore, McVeigh, Bevan and Grundy who have developed into senior players and will form the basis of our senior side for the future, via the Canberra League.

So its not all bad...just the results of the matches - remember we didn't win the Premiership in the Canberra League in 2003 or 2004 in our first two full season in the League.



Isn't the VFL only practice matches this week anyway (and next week as well)? But your right the Swans should have the reserves set up for matches in the next two weeks in anycase to make up for the fact there isn't any Canberra League matches.

But don't forget last weekend, that only rookie list players and senior listed players that had permission from the AFL COULD play. So even if we had a reserves match set up, not every player could of been available and in anycase we had a match set up that allowed those given permission the chance to get match practice.
1. ayers is a good coach,his record speaks for himself i'm sure roosy would be able to work with him.not like rocket and dudbar.
2. our coaching staff,they would learn more from ayers than allison and mcpherson.in the past it was a bad relationship but port this time were willing to compromise,remember it is worse in SA and WA where they are drafted out into different teams,itdidn't seem to affect them,it didn't stop WCE winning a flag
3.yes but we could have asked for permission to the AFL so some players could PLAY,so why would that be a problem if they were playing the best 2nds comp,instead of playing against 2nd standard hacks,and i'm sorry but even mchack got a kick there.
4.going back to your first pointthat they would be limited to 12 players,well what is the limit in canberra and howmany listed players actually played in the ACT grand final.
5.imagine if our ressies were playing in a better standard comp,against decent players how much better we might be,and haven't we put on our rookie list 2 players from the ACT
 
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Re: swans reserves

1. ayers is a good coach,his record speaks for himself i'm sure roosy would be able to work with him.not like rocket and dudbar.
So your telling me that Ayers has the SAME coaching ideals that Roos has and would put them in place at Port Melbourne? Because if you answer yes, then he certainly showed a different side to his coaching at Geelong and Adelaide when a senior coach (without the Premiership that Roos has to his name) and as an assistant coach at Essendon under Sheedy who stood for everything that Roos was against.

Its little wonder Ayers is coaching in the VFL at Port Melbourne this year rather than being picked up by another AFL club, in particular Sydney who you seem to think he would fit right into coaching style wise.

2. our coaching staff,they would learn more from ayers than allison and mcpherson.
Then why didn't Roos and Ireland offer Ayers a job last year then, if he had so much to offer?? Oh thats right, he didn't have that much to offer:rolleyes:

in the past it was a bad relationship but port this time were willing to compromise
In what way?? Were they willing to drop the payment that both North and ourselves had issues with? Were they willing to hand over control to our football department with they also had issues with North over in 2006 which led to the brake up of their partnership.

Port might of made out that they were willing to compromise, but considering their history. The Swans had every reason to doubt them.

remember it is worse in SA and WA where they are drafted out into different teams,itdidn't seem to affect them,it didn't stop WCE winning a flag
It works in SA and WA because they came into the AFL with that system in place and hence never had reserves sides to begin with, like we, Brisbane and the other Victorian teams did. So of course it never affected them because most of the players involved already come from the State League club they are drafted to and each season only 1 (at the most 2) players are drafted out. Plus have 4 or 5 players split over 8 clubs in the same state is different to 12 clubs split to 1 club in a different state.

3.yes but we could have asked for permission to the AFL so some players could PLAY,so why would that be a problem if they were playing the best 2nds comp,instead of playing against 2nd standard hacks,and i'm sorry but even mchack got a kick there.
We can't play players in comp we don't even compete in.

4.going back to your first pointthat they would be limited to 12 players,well what is the limit in canberra and howmany listed players actually played in the ACT grand final.
I believe 16 in the team (or 16 Swans players on the field at any one time) with the rest of the side to be made up of top up players and if we have any left over players, they get split up between the ACTAFL teams each week with the coaching staff having control on what position/role they play and how many minutes they play. But for that last part to happen we need to have less than 8 injuries/suspensions at any one time.

5.imagine if our ressies were playing in a better standard comp,against decent players how much better we might be
Who knows, but the Swans played two full seasons in the ACTAFL before we even started the 2005 season which led to our AFL Premiership and our first premiership in the ACTAFL in the 3 seasons we had been there. We was the outrage in 2004 when we were getting beaten in finals in the ACTAFL???

and haven't we put on our rookie list 2 players from the ACT
Yes, one of which is Matthew O'Dwyer who many have called to be put on the senior list in place of on one of our knee victims. If the comp is so bad how come we have managed to get players from it onto our list and develop players we have drafted as well into senior players.
 

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bedford

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Re: swans reserves

So your telling me that Ayers has the SAME coaching ideals that Roos has and would put them in place at Port Melbourne? Because if you answer yes, then he certainly showed a different side to his coaching at Geelong and Adelaide when a senior coach (without the Premiership that Roos has to his name) and as an assistant coach at Essendon under Sheedy who stood for everything that Roos was against.

Its little wonder Ayers is coaching in the VFL at Port Melbourne this year rather than being picked up by another AFL club, in particular Sydney who you seem to think he would fit right into coaching style wise.



Then why didn't Roos and Ireland offer Ayers a job last year then, if he had so much to offer?? Oh thats right, he didn't have that much to offer:rolleyes:



In what way?? Were they willing to drop the payment that both North and ourselves had issues with? Were they willing to hand over control to our football department with they also had issues with North over in 2006 which led to the brake up of their partnership.

Port might of made out that they were willing to compromise, but considering their history. The Swans had every reason to doubt them.



It works in SA and WA because they came into the AFL with that system in place and hence never had reserves sides to begin with, like we, Brisbane and the other Victorian teams did. So of course it never affected them because most of the players involved already come from the State League club they are drafted to and each season only 1 (at the most 2) players are drafted out. Plus have 4 or 5 players split over 8 clubs in the same state is different to 12 clubs split to 1 club in a different state.



We can't play players in comp we don't even compete in.



I believe 16 in the team (or 16 Swans players on the field at any one time) with the rest of the side to be made up of top up players and if we have any left over players, they get split up between the ACTAFL teams each week with the coaching staff having control on what position/role they play and how many minutes they play. But for that last part to happen we need to have less than 8 injuries/suspensions at any one time.



Who knows, but the Swans played two full seasons in the ACTAFL before we even started the 2005 season which led to our AFL Premiership and our first premiership in the ACTAFL in the 3 seasons we had been there. We was the outrage in 2004 when we were getting beaten in finals in the ACTAFL???



Yes, one of which is Matthew O'Dwyer who many have called to be put on the senior list in place of on one of our knee victims. If the comp is so bad how come we have managed to get players from it onto our list and develop players we have drafted as well into senior players.
face the fact that the ACT is crap.
 
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Re: swans reserves

face the fact that the ACT is crap.
Never said it was the best comp going around but having our reserves side playing in it is far better than having a partnership with Port Melbourne which has shown not to work with not only us but North Melbourne. Of course I would love to have our own stand alone side in the VFL for our reserves to play for, perferably under the name South Melbourne.
 

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Re: swans reserves

In case it eluded your one track mind one of your current captains learnt his footy, and earnt his draft selection, in the ACT. Also your reserves coach Brett Allison and the likes of Hird and Jezza.
what were the rest of our list doing on the weekend,does anybody know if there was a practice match for the rest of them,maybe a 6v6 match.

we could have done with jesse white on sat. night might have allowed LRT to go back and we just might have won.

this is why i started this thread to show how bad the present situation is.
 

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Re: swans reserves

we could have done with jesse white on sat. night might have allowed LRT to go back and we just might have won.
Our defence wasn't an issue at all on Saturday night, they did a fantastic job. LRT wasn't needed in defence and wouldn't have even had anyone to play on. However in the ruck he played a great game, he was better than Jolly. If we wouldn't have LRT in the ruck then i don't think we would have gotten as close as we did. There's no way that Jesse White could have done what LRT did. So basically, if Jesse White would have played in the ruck and LRT would have been in defence, then we would have been alot worse off.
 

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#18
Re: swans reserves

If anything, I'd have thought Saturday night's game provides evidence - not conclusive but certainly encouraging - that the current reserves set up is doing what it's meant to do, ie preparing players to slot into the senior team.

If anyone saw Jack and Barlow in their early reserves games, they'd not have predicted the poise and skill that Jack showed this weekend, or Barlow at the end of 2007. And Moore, too, has taken his time but used it to get fit and purposeful.

It's just a shame that Thornton, Laidlaw, Schmidt and Malceski are injured- all players who developed in the ACTAFL and all players who are capable of being long term quality additions to the Swans senior team. (Yes, I realise this is nothing new with Malceski, but I included him because he's another who spent a season or two playing with the supposedly disasterous set-up.)
 

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#19
Re: swans reserves

A valid argument, but I think it only applies to the running type players. We haven't really seen any key position players emerge. Vogels looked likely for a while, but is no longer on the list. Grundy started well, but was again pretty non-existant after his early goal. Those two in particular have dominated the goalkicking in the reserves, but they find what they do in the lesser league (i.e. use their superior strength) doesn't cut the mustard at AFL level.
 
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Re: swans reserves

what were the rest of our list doing on the weekend,does anybody know if there was a practice match for the rest of them,maybe a 6v6 match.
No. However I'm not sure if the other club got an advantage over us. As I haven't heard or seen reports of VFL Practice matches being played on the weekend. So it might of been the case that all clubs might of been in the same boat as us this weekend. But I'm willing to stand corrected on that front.

As far as I'm aware we start the ACTAFL season this Sunday.


we could have done with jesse white on sat. night might have allowed LRT to go back and we just might have won.
I doubt an extra tall in defence would of made a difference in a game where we allowed only 6 goals for the match. They stood up well. We just didn't cope with the flood.

this is why i started this thread to show how bad the present situation is.
Problem is, how bad you and others think it is will be completely different to the way the club itself sees the situation. Yes we want our players when they are fit and not in the senior side playing against the best possible oppositon and clearly that means the VFL, but its also clear the club wants to have control of the players and team it puts them in and therefore we are forced in a way to play in the ACTAFL.

If the club was willing to have their own standalone side in the VFL then great but there are many factors that the club takes into account when making a decision, not just the logical "lets play in the VFL". End of the day we are in the competition we are in and we have to settle for what we have and make the best out of it.
 

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#21
Re: swans reserves

A valid argument, but I think it only applies to the running type players. We haven't really seen any key position players emerge. Vogels looked likely for a while, but is no longer on the list. Grundy started well, but was again pretty non-existant after his early goal. Those two in particular have dominated the goalkicking in the reserves, but they find what they do in the lesser league (i.e. use their superior strength) doesn't cut the mustard at AFL level.
Agreed, but it's a bit hard to assess the development of KPPs when the club doesn't draft any. Realistically, Vogels, Grundy and probably White as well were/are outside chances of making it, based on their draft position.
 

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#22
Re: swans reserves

There were no practice matches this weekend anywhere-it was Easter. Live with it. We are in Canberra for many more years-live with it. Veszpremi, Laidlaw, O'Keefe, Bruce, Thornton, White, Currie. There's a lot of potential there and if they develop as well as Jack, Bird, Barlow, and Moore we are in for some interesting years ahead.
 

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Re: swans reserves

No. However I'm not sure if the other club got an advantage over us. As I haven't heard or seen reports of VFL Practice matches being played on the weekend. So it might of been the case that all clubs might of been in the same boat as us this weekend. But I'm willing to stand corrected on that front.

As far as I'm aware we start the ACTAFL season this Sunday.




I doubt an extra tall in defence would of made a difference in a game where we allowed only 6 goals for the match. They stood up well. We just didn't cope with the flood.



Problem is, how bad you and others think it is will be completely different to the way the club itself sees the situation. Yes we want our players when they are fit and not in the senior side playing against the best possible oppositon and clearly that means the VFL, but its also clear the club wants to have control of the players and team it puts them in and therefore we are forced in a way to play in the ACTAFL.

If the club was willing to have their own standalone side in the VFL then great but there are many factors that the club takes into account when making a decision, not just the logical "lets play in the VFL". End of the day we are in the competition we are in and we have to settle for what we have and make the best out of it.
robbie i know we are never going to agree on where the 2's play,but there were VFL practice matches on the weekend for example, port played frankston.the ACT comp kicks off on the 6th of april.
this has been one of my points,other clubs are getting a jump on us.i accept the point that the club prefers it this way at the moment but my personal view is our players would be better of at VFL level.
as LIZ stated in a previous post there is now only six teams in Canberra so there will be no byes,that is a improvement to what had been happening in the past,but the worry is the three weeks some guys won't be playing at all.
rancid has summed up where i thought LRT should play.
 

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Thread starter #24
Re: swans reserves

having just received my copy of swans news,i found it very interesting to read about roosy's opinion of the ACT comp. and the VFL.
in my opinion he would prefer to be in the VFL as he says in canberra you just don't get the constant tough opposition as the other clubs do.
so this is one of the reasons he tries to play as many rookies or first gamers in the NAB cup or challenge games.
if roosy views it this way something must be done about it as soon as it can be.
this has to be one of the reasons for a lack of first or second year players being promoted in the last few years,as they have to be very very good to get promoted,so how did mcveigh get a game?.
 
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