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Kapers

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2019
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The original Indigenous Round Guernsey was designed by Goodes's mother. It had pale blue, too, representing Sydney, and to a lesser extent, NSW.
As did the black Swan represent the black Swan in Australia.
As does the pride gurensey the pride movement.

I respect that the designs have a lot of meaning and emotion behind them, that doesn't mean I have to like them.

Also doesn't change the fact that our colours are red and white and they're putting other colours on. We can support causes with changing our colours imo.
 

bedford

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As did the black Swan represent the black Swan in Australia.
As does the pride gurensey the pride movement.

I respect that the designs have a lot of meaning and emotion behind them, that doesn't mean I have to like them.

Also doesn't change the fact that our colours are red and white and they're putting other colours on. We can support causes with changing our colours imo.
I still can't work out why we need a pride jumper , celebrate it , but jumper not needed .
 

caesar88

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I still can't work out why we need a pride jumper , celebrate it , but jumper not needed .

The argument they'd make is that it's to be inclusive so the LGBT community have their own jumper and to feel acknowledged by the club.

The argument that I would make is that true inclusivity would be the LGBT community having just as much right to wear the normal Swans jumper as anyone else, and that having their own distinct jumper kinda trumps the whole idea of it being inclusive.
 

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sataris

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The argument they'd make is that it's to be inclusive so the LGBT community have their own jumper and to feel acknowledged by the club.

The argument that I would make is that true inclusivity would be the LGBT community having just as much right to wear the normal Swans jumper as anyone else, and that having their own distinct jumper kinda trumps the whole idea of it being inclusive.
I still can't work out why we need a pride jumper , celebrate it , but jumper not needed .

It's like the LGBT and/or the aboriginal flag (or why we have flags in general). It's meant to represent your group/community/cohort.

It's all well and good to say "They should just use the Australian flag/Swans Jumper". But those things have their own meanings and they don't feel those meanings represent them.

That's why the flag/pride jumper was created in the first place. They are different, but the same, and just as valid as each other.

Someone from the community can explain it better than me.
 

caesar88

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It's like the LGBT and/or the aboriginal flag (or why we have flags in general). It's meant to represent your group/community/cohort.

It's all well and good to say "They should just use the Australian flag/Swans Jumper". But those things have their own meanings and they don't feel those meanings represent them.

That's why the flag/pride jumper was created in the first place. They are different, but the same, and just as valid as each other.

Someone from the community can explain it better than me.

I'm all on board with the indigenous community having their own flag because Australia as a federation has done very little for them beyond irreparable damage.

In the case of the Swans, we as an organisation have been accepting and appreciative of the LGBT community. If they're putting the Pride jumper on, it's because they feel acknowledged and supported by the club. So why not support the club by wearing it's normal jumper?

I just think true inclusivity is everyone no matter their race, religion, sexuality etc all being able to wear the same jumper and all be defined as "Swans". This is the exact opposite of that as they are defining themselves by their sexuality. It's "us and them" when it's supposed to be "we".
 

Kirkswan

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It's like the LGBT and/or the aboriginal flag (or why we have flags in general). It's meant to represent your group/community/cohort.

It's all well and good to say "They should just use the Australian flag/Swans Jumper". But those things have their own meanings and they don't feel those meanings represent them.

That's why the flag/pride jumper was created in the first place. They are different, but the same, and just as valid as each other.

Someone from the community can explain it better than me.
No, I think you did a pretty good job...

The argument they'd make is that it's to be inclusive so the LGBT community have their own jumper and to feel acknowledged by the club.

The argument that I would make is that true inclusivity would be the LGBT community having just as much right to wear the normal Swans jumper as anyone else, and that having their own distinct jumper kinda trumps the whole idea of it being inclusive.

And no, they are a tribe within a tribe... exactly the same as the Victorians having their Victorian jumper (white with the red V). Is the Victorian community more important than the LGBT or Aboriginal community? No, they are just larger. And while it shits me to tears that we do not wear the same red jumper with the white lower front and opera house/swans arse on the front week in week out, (my personal view is other teams should have a clash jumper, not us!) I acknowledge that I am in individual in a much wider tribe, and all members of that tribe have a right to be seen, heard and acknowledged.

Please avoid words like 'normal' and replace them with words like 'usual'... Just because it's different and/or unusual, doesn't mean it's not normal. I know no harm was meant, but we are trying to change a generational way of thinking/speaking/writing here...

If we are successful, in a fifty to hundred years none of this will need to be acknowledge as it will just a usual part of life, like choosing a partner whose skin is different to your own is now. Fifty years ago you would have ostracised from your community, most likely your family and certainly your religion. Now certainly in Sydney, and I presume in Melbourne, its very common and not even thought of...

As to the jumper itself, I preferred the black swan, would have been happy to stick with that for life, but this ones not bad either. Heaps better than most of the others!
 

Kapers

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2019
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No, I think you did a pretty good job...



And no, they are a tribe within a tribe... exactly the same as the Victorians having their Victorian jumper (white with the red V). Is the Victorian community more important than the LGBT or Aboriginal community? No, they are just larger. And while it shits me to tears that we do not wear the same red jumper with the white lower front and opera house/swans arse on the front week in week out, (my personal view is other teams should have a clash jumper, not us!) I acknowledge that I am in individual in a much wider tribe, and all members of that tribe have a right to be seen, heard and acknowledged.

Please avoid words like 'normal' and replace them with words like 'usual'... Just because it's different and/or unusual, doesn't mean it's not normal. I know no harm was meant, but we are trying to change a generational way of thinking/speaking/writing here...

If we are successful, in a fifty to hundred years none of this will need to be acknowledge as it will just a usual part of life, like choosing a partner whose skin is different to your own is now. Fifty years ago you would have ostracised from your community, most likely your family and certainly your religion. Now certainly in Sydney, and I presume in Melbourne, its very common and not even thought of...

As to the jumper itself, I preferred the black swan, would have been happy to stick with that for life, but this ones not bad either. Heaps better than most of the others!
I would rather a jumper that spelt out that we are pro gay pride in white and red. Surely someone can figure out how to be inclusive AND not change the colours.
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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No, I think you did a pretty good job...



And no, they are a tribe within a tribe... exactly the same as the Victorians having their Victorian jumper (white with the red V). Is the Victorian community more important than the LGBT or Aboriginal community? No, they are just larger. And while it shits me to tears that we do not wear the same red jumper with the white lower front and opera house/swans arse on the front week in week out, (my personal view is other teams should have a clash jumper, not us!) I acknowledge that I am in individual in a much wider tribe, and all members of that tribe have a right to be seen, heard and acknowledged.

Please avoid words like 'normal' and replace them with words like 'usual'... Just because it's different and/or unusual, doesn't mean it's not normal. I know no harm was meant, but we are trying to change a generational way of thinking/speaking/writing here...

If we are successful, in a fifty to hundred years none of this will need to be acknowledge as it will just a usual part of life, like choosing a partner whose skin is different to your own is now. Fifty years ago you would have ostracised from your community, most likely your family and certainly your religion. Now certainly in Sydney, and I presume in Melbourne, its very common and not even thought of...

As to the jumper itself, I preferred the black swan, would have been happy to stick with that for life, but this ones not bad either. Heaps better than most of the others!

Whilst I appreciate the thought that went into this post and I actually agree with nearly all of it, your very first sentence is the one that I don't agree with. If you are at a Swans game, the Swans are your tribe for those three hours. The Pride game is the initiative that welcomes anyone and everyone to the footy. The Pride jumper is the thing that then separates anyone from everyone at the footy.

That's just my stance on it.

I will add that I am fully aware of the generational shift that needs to happen in regards to the treatment of minority communities. I live in one of literally only two seats in WA that voted for the Liberals at last year's state election. My morning coffee at my local cafe consists of me having to endure narrow-minded fossils citing Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt, talking about how the world is going to s**t because of what someone wore, or what someone was protesting about, or what someone practised. I also live with an old, white male who occasionally wades into that territory himself, and I find myself having to try and shape his world view wherever I can. So believe me, I'm well versed in this particular discourse.

On this occasion, I just don't think it needs to be that complicated. If you're at the footy, wear the team's jumper, or don't wear it at all. I can't stand remixed jumpers, regardless of the message or intent or occasion behind them! And to piggyback on the back of Kapers' point, if we continue in this direction, pretty soon there'll be so many jumpers with so many different colours on them that we might as well just do away with team colours!
 

Kirkswan

Norm Smith Medallist
May 10, 2014
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I would rather a jumper that spelt out that we are pro gay pride in white and red. Surely someone can figure out how to be inclusive AND not change the colours.
I dunno... why don't you give it a go and send it in?
 

Kirkswan

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May 10, 2014
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Whilst I appreciate the thought that went into this post and I actually agree with nearly all of it, your very first sentence is the one that I don't agree with. If you are at a Swans game, the Swans are your tribe for those three hours. The Pride game is the initiative that welcomes anyone and everyone to the footy. The Pride jumper is the thing that then separates anyone from everyone at the footy.

That's just my stance on it.

I will add that I am fully aware of the generational shift that needs to happen in regards to the treatment of minority communities. I live in one of literally only two seats in WA that voted for the Liberals at last year's state election. My morning coffee at my local cafe consists of me having to endure narrow-minded fossils citing Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt, talking about how the world is going to s**t because of what someone wore, or what someone was protesting about, or what someone practised. I also live with an old, white male who occasionally wades into that territory himself, and I find myself having to try and shape his world view wherever I can. So believe me, I'm well versed in this particular discourse.

On this occasion, I just don't think it needs to be that complicated. If you're at the footy, wear the team's jumper, or don't wear it at all. I can't stand remixed jumpers, regardless of the message or intent or occasion behind them! And to piggyback on the back of Kapers' point, if we continue in this direction, pretty soon there'll be so many jumpers with so many different colours on them that we might as well just do away with team colours!
Fair enough... try thinking of them (the Pride, Aboriginal and Melbourne jumpers) as a celebratory jumpers worn by all who celebrate inclusivity. That's how I've finally made peace with the fact that we don't always wear what I think of as my beloved Swans jumper.

I would throw up if I had to listen to Alan Jones while drinking anything at all... you have my sympathies!
 

sataris

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Fair enough... try thinking of them (the Pride, Aboriginal and Melbourne jumpers) as a celebratory jumpers worn by all who celebrate inclusivity.

This is basically what it comes down to.

They are different, but they are the same, and they are all equally valid.

If someone came around and said the Melbourne jumper is stupid, we are the Sydney Swans now, the old South Supporters should just wear the swans jumper, we are supposed to be 'we' and they are making it all about 'us' and 'them'. They'd be laughed at (and rightfully so).

You can have multiple symbols representing the same thing. This is why our clash guernsey isn't an 'us' and 'them' issue. Not to mention that the logo, guernsey, home ground, home city and home state have all changed.

But they are the same....
 

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bedford

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It's like the LGBT and/or the aboriginal flag (or why we have flags in general). It's meant to represent your group/community/cohort.

It's all well and good to say "They should just use the Australian flag/Swans Jumper". But those things have their own meanings and they don't feel those meanings represent them.

That's why the flag/pride jumper was created in the first place. They are different, but the same, and just as valid as each other.

Someone from the community can explain it better than me.
Everyone is a human , stop making divisions ( not you mate ) let's have a Jewish round , Catholic , Muslim etc . Indigenous round is unique to Australia , leave it at that
 

caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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This is basically what it comes down to.

They are different, but they are the same, and they are all equally valid.

If someone came around and said the Melbourne jumper is stupid, we are the Sydney Swans now, the old South Supporters should just wear the swans jumper, we are supposed to be 'we' and they are making it all about 'us' and 'them'. They'd be laughed at (and rightfully so).

You can have multiple symbols representing the same thing. This is why our clash guernsey isn't an 'us' and 'them' issue. Not to mention that the logo, guernsey, home ground, home city and home state have all changed.

But they are the same....

Very well said. But I guess the difference would be that the old V jumper IS the Swans jumper, to a South Melbourne/Sydney Swans fan. The Pride jumper is not the Swans jumper, just a remixed version of it.

I think we're all on the same side here we just might all have different points at where we're willing to draw the line on "changing" the Swans' jumper.
 

Kapers

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2019
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The South Melbourne jumper is still red and white.

I don't care if the jumper is the queen's face, as long as it's red and white ONLY.
 

BloodySwan

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Oct 2, 2016
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Everyone is a human , stop making divisions ( not you mate ) let's have a Jewish round , Catholic , Muslim etc . Indigenous round is unique to Australia , leave it at that
inclusivity of one group doesn't mean exclusivity of another.

It's estimated that 1/20 people are LGBTQI+, so on average there would be 2 players a game yet not a single AFL player is open in this regard. I think a pride round would go a long way to making them feel more included in the community. Having a pride match and visibly showing our support goes a long way
 

bedford

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inclusivity of one group doesn't mean exclusivity of another.

It's estimated that 1/20 people are LGBTQI+, so on average there would be 2 players a game yet not a single AFL player is open in this regard. I think a pride round would go a long way to making them feel more included in the community. Having a pride match and visibly showing our support goes a long way
I have 2 gay Relatives , they don't like the attention , just want to be part of society . Don't need to change the jumper and if so just 1 round
 

Ticky009

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Tom McCartin is Sydney's apparently. With a shout out to Hickey.
 

caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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Eddie McGuire, in probably his single best few minutes on TV, has gone in to bat for Rowbottom on Footy Classified. I have never seen him speak so passionately about a single thing Swans related ever, and whilst I reckon he's 100% on the money on this one, we could've done with such dignity and understanding from him on about a hundred other occasions.

 

bedford

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Eddie McGuire, in probably his single best few minutes on TV, has gone in to bat for Rowbottom on Footy Classified. I have never seen him speak so passionately about a single thing Swans related ever, and whilst I reckon he's 100% on the money on this one, we could've done with such dignity and understanding from him on about a hundred other occasions.


Then it's destroyed by that Rob Sitch
 

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