Autopsy Swans Vs Dees - AFL Round 8, 2021

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Big Blood

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Jun 27, 2010
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The difference was experience and especially team experience. We beat Melbourne in most stats - actually held them to 46 inside 50s compared to their average of 57, smashed them in the clearances and when was the last time we laid 92 tackles?

Their team defence was really something. We weren't Buddy-conscious going forward but they were brilliant in denying him space.

The best part was two weeks in a row we looked absolutely beaten against a top side and came back and nearly stole it. We're competitive with the best teams in the comp playing at their best - we're not far off.

They're a top four team right in the premiership sweet spot. Good luck to them. Much rather the Demons than any of the other contenders.
 

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the hypnotoad

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Mar 7, 2021
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We were always at a huge disadvantage with our assistant coaches sitting in Sydney watching via the monitor. They could not see the whole ground so decisions were made on the broadcast vision and observers in the box telling them the layout. This would have been excruciatingly frustrating for them. Plus it doesn't make for good decision making.

We were pretty good but could not get our forward line to function. I am of the opinion we have to go forward minus Lance. He was really poor today. OK, he plays on an All Australian Full Back but the reality is great players find a way and he couldn't. The delivery wasn't that good either. But we were far too tall conscious and missed many other options. Several times we bipassed free players to bang the ball long, usually directly to Dees defenders or a big pack.

We played low percentage footy coming into the forward line and we can blame that for losing. Add to that a superb Dees defence who must have thought it was easy with such dreadful delivery. Their big forwards murdered us. We kept the mid size and small forwards quiet but their big guys were super. McCartin and Rampe were thrashed. They had no answer to either of the talls. Jake Lloyd and Jordan Dawson tried to give them a cut out but all too often either McDonald or Brown were able to either get free or take the big grab.

Even though Gawn and Jackson dominated the rucks Hickey still managed to hold his own and got Plant around the ground. We won the clearances. We won the tackles. But we lost the outside battle. Melbourne's mids are not known for their outside prowess but they killed us there yesterday. Most of their numbers came frmrun and carry and running on to get a second collect. Whether our mids could not keep up or they were just too loose I don't know. Poor Justin McInerney found himself chasing multiple players again and again. Our pressure was generally good until they got an overlap caused by one player being inattentive or staying out of the contest on the offensive side and being caught out.

We did not make the most of our opportunities and in a close match that is generally the difference. Our effort was commendable under very difficult circumstances. I think next time the result will be different.

On JAT-L29 using BigFooty.com mobile app
rampe thrashed!?! you're wrong ...
 

S120

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Think it should be clear now that playing Sinclair if we have a ruckman is a waste and I would rather just play McDonald
At this point I'd be willing to test Amartey over Sinclair as a 2nd ruck/forward. He's been kicking goals and putting together some good pieces of play as a forward (along with his regular array of mistakes). I don't think Amartey will make it long-term but if they want to give Logan more time in the 2's to develop (which I'm all for, he's 19, there's no rush) and it's between playing Amartey vs what Sinclair now provides, I think I'd rather see Amartey given a shot for a couple of weeks. He's on the list, may as well give him a shot if Sinclair isn't giving us enough.
 

mtooler

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It's funny. We seem to have huge expectations for a team of players most on here flatly refused to believe would finish any higher than 12th this year.
Fair call, needs to be tempered, it was more the rounds 1-4 game style which is a distant memory now, we are back to bombing long again and we just arent that good at it.
 

mtooler

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At this point I'd be willing to test Amartey over Sinclair as a 2nd ruck/forward. He's been kicking goals and putting together some good pieces of play as a forward (along with his regular array of mistakes). I don't think Amartey will make it long-term but if they want to give Logan more time in the 2's to develop (which I'm all for, he's 19, there's no rush) and it's between playing Amartey vs what Sinclair now provides, I think I'd rather see Amartey given a shot for a couple of weeks. He's on the list, may as well give him a shot if Sinclair isn't giving us enough.
Id rather just persevere with Mclean in that role with Reid and Logan brought back in.
 

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Dubsforsam1

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Apr 5, 2009
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We played the inform team in the comp on their home ground with more I50's, scoring shots etc and people are complaining about the selection being too tall etc.

FFS if Hayward/Papley/Franklin shoot straight we win.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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A lot of talk about how we've returned to the long bomb etc. like it's Horse going messy and defensive by choice. In reality I think it's more Horse & the players trying to make the best out of what's blatantly clear, which is that the short kicking game just isn't an option atm.

Teams have figured out that we like to play an uncontested, short-kicking game. It would be the first thing they'd focus on stopping when they do their oppo research on us at the start of each week. We keep venting about the long bomb and how we ignore the short option inside 50. But the short option inside 50 is, at this point, a mythological figure that doesn't exist most of the time for us. In the early rounds we were able to play those short kicks and slice open teams defences very quickly, which gave the forwards the time to find isolation. But we are now being forced into more of a stoppage-based game, forcing us to use our run and quick hands to work it into space and move it forward. The issue is our hands haven't been great this year, and so we're making more errors and the run and carry is coming undone too often. This means it's not getting down there as quickly as in the early rounds, and our forwards aren't able to get that separation. The ball carrier then looks up at a forward 50 where no one's leading and no one's got any real space on their opponent or to work into. What alternative is there other than to get it in and hope the smalls (who are also struggling atm) can make something happen at ground level?

From the training reports we heard over the pre-season from good folks like SeanM and also match sim, pre-season games, the first few rounds, it's clear we obviously put a LOT of work into our chip kicking game and it produced immediate results. But it's possible that focusing on that has compromised our hands in close and our setting up at the contest. We're quite clearly a long way off the likes of Melbourne and the Bulldogs, who have had great success this year using this method. We need to improve our ball use by hands and start using run and carry to get the ball in as quickly as possible, put the opposition's team defence and actual defence under the pump. That's how you end up with short options inside 50. This worked reasonably well against Geelong as it allowed our mids to run in waves and get loose forward, and we ended up getting 6 goals combined out of Florent, Rowbottom, McInerney, Warner and Stephens. So we're obviously capable of it, just not consistently enough. Hoping we can maybe use the next month against slightly easier opponents to work on hands > foot in terms of forward ball movement. It's just more sustainable under opposition pressure.
 

mtooler

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A lot of talk about how we've returned to the long bomb etc. like it's Horse going messy and defensive by choice. In reality I think it's more Horse & the players trying to make the best out of what's blatantly clear, which is that the short kicking game just isn't an option atm.

Teams have figured out that we like to play an uncontested, short-kicking game. It would be the first thing they'd focus on stopping when they do their oppo research on us at the start of each week. We keep venting about the long bomb and how we ignore the short option inside 50. But the short option inside 50 is, at this point, a mythological figure that doesn't exist most of the time for us. In the early rounds we were able to play those short kicks and slice open teams defences very quickly, which gave the forwards the time to find isolation. But we are now being forced into more of a stoppage-based game, forcing us to use our run and quick hands to work it into space and move it forward. The issue is our hands haven't been great this year, and so we're making more errors and the run and carry is coming undone too often. This means it's not getting down there as quickly as in the early rounds, and our forwards aren't able to get that separation. The ball carrier then looks up at a forward 50 where no one's leading and no one's got any real space on their opponent or to work into. What alternative is there other than to get it in and hope the smalls (who are also struggling atm) can make something happen at ground level?

From the training reports we heard over the pre-season from good folks like SeanM and also match sim, pre-season games, the first few rounds, it's clear we obviously put a LOT of work into our chip kicking game and it produced immediate results. But it's possible that focusing on that has compromised our hands in close and our setting up at the contest. We're quite clearly a long way off the likes of Melbourne and the Bulldogs, who have had great success this year using this method. We need to improve our ball use by hands and start using run and carry to get the ball in as quickly as possible, put the opposition's team defence and actual defence under the pump. That's how you end up with short options inside 50. This worked reasonably well against Geelong as it allowed our mids to run in waves and get loose forward, and we ended up getting 6 goals combined out of Florent, Rowbottom, McInerney, Warner and Stephens. So we're obviously capable of it, just not consistently enough. Hoping we can maybe use the next month against slightly easier opponents to work on hands > foot in terms of forward ball movement. It's just more sustainable under opposition pressure.
Totally agree, we aren't known for turning our game plan on a dime though.
 

caesar88

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Totally agree, we aren't known for turning our game plan on a dime though.
Not sure it requires much tbh, just more of a focus on opening up opposition by hand instead of foot. Get run and carry going instead of leading targets. This could be practiced with skill sessions on the track. Our handball work needs serious improvement.

I think we all liked how we played in the first three weeks with our kicking game. It looked very appealing and we got to show off our foot skills. But the harsh reality it seems is that it just isn't going to hold up against quality opposition, and I think it needs to become more of an ace up our sleeve rather than a fundamental game plan we keep trying to go back to. Because all we end up doing is slowing down the play waiting for an opening to get our kicking game going, and it just gives opposition time to set up on our forwards. That's how you end up with no options and turning to the long bomb.
 

mtooler

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Not sure it requires much tbh, just more of a focus on opening up opposition by hand instead of foot. Get run and carry going instead of leading targets. This could be practiced with skill sessions on the track. Our handball work needs serious improvement.

I think we all liked how we played in the first three weeks with our kicking game. It looked very appealing and we got to show off our foot skills. But the harsh reality it seems is that it just isn't going to hold up against quality opposition, and I think it needs to become more of an ace up our sleeve rather than a fundamental game plan we keep trying to go back to. Because all we end up doing is slowing down the play waiting for an opening to get our kicking game going, and it just gives opposition time to set up on our forwards. That's how you end up with no options and turning to the long bomb.
Yeah agreed :)
 

Slingshot Footy

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Oct 10, 2018
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From the training reports we heard over the pre-season from good folks like SeanM and also match sim, pre-season games, the first few rounds, it's clear we obviously put a LOT of work into our chip kicking game and it produced immediate results. But it's possible that focusing on that has compromised our hands in close and our setting up at the contest. We're quite clearly a long way off the likes of Melbourne and the Bulldogs, who have had great success this year using this method. We need to improve our ball use by hands and start using run and carry to get the ball in as quickly as possible, put the opposition's team defence and actual defence under the pump. That's how you end up with short options inside 50. This worked reasonably well against Geelong as it allowed our mids to run in waves and get loose forward, and we ended up getting 6 goals combined out of Florent, Rowbottom, McInerney, Warner and Stephens. So we're obviously capable of it, just not consistently enough. Hoping we can maybe use the next month against slightly easier opponents to work on hands > foot in terms of forward ball movement. It's just more sustainable under opposition pressure.
Well a positive is that our list is clearly coachable enough to see improvement when there's a specific emphasis on particular skills during pre-season. I don't think that our set up at the contest is necessarily poor it's just that the opposition who have beaten us in this area are far superior in that aspect of the game. Consistency with our run and carry has been an issue but considering the age profile of those players listed above you do have to give them the let off every so often. In a wet and torrid affair I actually thought our disposal by hand wasn't half bad but Melbourne were clearly a class above in that area and reminds you of how good the likes of Harmes and Oliver really are.
 

kickthething

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you are kidding, right?
You can only play the game that the other side allows you to play.
yes and no, you can still attack as Sat night there were quite a few opportunities to take the corridor that was ignored, and a number of handball gives ignored. We took those opportunities rnds 1-4, we have lost a bit of confidence in execution since then. You can always dictate how you play, it's not up to the opposition its up to us how we respond to what the opposition throws at us
 

Kapers

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Sep 25, 2019
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think we all liked how we played in the first three weeks with our kicking game. It looked very appealing and we got to show off our foot skills. But the harsh reality it seems is that it just isn't going to hold up against quality opposition, and I think it needs to become more of an ace up our sleeve rather than a fundamental game plan we keep trying to go back to.
I agree with most, but not this.

1. The teams that have had the most success with this handball game are two teams that have been on the precipice of being great teams. Both Melbourne and WB teams are stellar, well poised for their premiership window. We are arguably 2-4 years early to be in top 4 contention, but our first 3 weeks were.

2. Our forward line is a bunch of kid, which means when we're on their exciting, when their off they go missing. Hayward, Papley, Wicks, Gulden, Heeney, and McDonald are all amazing, but this is still the embryo of an all star forward line. Compare it to any other top 4 side and you'll see a world of difference.

3. Kicking is a point of difference and I trust our coaches to get it right. It annoys me to no end seeing every club try to copy each other. We will need a plan B, but I'm certain that the way teams set up against us can and will be exploited, I just think we expected to deal with it in round 14, not round 4.

I'm confident a kicking game can win finals, we just need to implement more to keep clubs honest vs us.
 

Kapers

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Sep 25, 2019
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Regarding age,

Dee goal kickers:
McDonald - 28
Brown - 28
Petracca - 25
Melksham - 29
Spargo - 21

Swans:
Hayward - 22
Papley - 24
Lloyd - 27
Sinclair - 31
Mills - 24
McInerney - 20
Hickey - 30

Note: more goal scorers, no key forward like Melbourne, 4 goal scores 25 and under to Melbourne's 2.

We are relying much more on kids than any other top 8 side, which is good for the long term, buts it's rough week in week out.
 

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