Academy Sydney Academy in 2020 another bonanza

sr36

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Do we though? Total members of AFL clubs is at an all-time high (source) as are attendances (source). Members and supporters are consuming our game more now than they ever have. Does that not suggest the current model is working?
The game is great. The current model is working, but that doesn't mean we shouldn’t question any aspects of the current model. In fact every year we do question other aspects of the current model. We see rule and policy changes everywhere. The only part of the model that doesn't seem to be questioned is the need for never ending growth.
 

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Turboman1994

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Heeney and mills would be playing rugby if It wasn’t for the swans no issue with them get access to them disagree with Blakey his old boy is a footy legend and was in the swans academy by the fact they lived in Sydney they shouldn’t of had access to him
 

GC2015

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The game is great. The current model is working, but that doesn't mean we shouldn’t question any aspects of the current model. In fact every year we do question other aspects of the current model. We see rule and policy changes everywhere. The only part of the model that doesn't seem to be questioned is the need for never ending growth.
I feel like you're just asking questions for the sake of asking, despite being shown numerous time that what the AFL are doing is working. If you keep going, people are going to label you a bitter Collingwood fan who misses the old days when the Pies would make a GF every third or fourth year on average.

Heeney and mills would be playing rugby if It wasn’t for the swans no issue with them get access to them disagree with Blakey his old boy is a footy legend and was in the swans academy by the fact they lived in Sydney they shouldn’t of had access to him
Is the Blakey situation any different to Carlton drafting Marc Murphy in '05 though? His old man was a Fitzroy legend and the Lions had father-son access to him but Marc decided to decline his father-son opportunity because he wanted to stay in his hometown of Melbourne and knew Carlton were going to take him with pick 1. You're right about Heeney and Mills though. They would 100% be lost to the rugby codes if the Swans academy didn't exist.
 

General Giant

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I'm not advocating screwing over any supporter base by having teams fold. I'm not advocating teams folding at all. We've expanded already, we need to look after all of our members and supporters. I'm just questioning whether expansion and growth should be goals that we continue to pursue at the expense of other goals.
It's pretty simple. You grow or you die.

But you do have to be picky on how you grow.
 

eastfreo75

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I feel like you're just asking questions for the sake of asking, despite being shown numerous time that what the AFL are doing is working. If you keep going, people are going to label you a bitter Collingwood fan who misses the old days when the Pies would make a GF every third or fourth year on average.


Is the Blakey situation any different to Carlton drafting Marc Murphy in '05 though? His old man was a Fitzroy legend and the Lions had father-son access to him but Marc decided to decline his father-son opportunity because he wanted to stay in his hometown of Melbourne and knew Carlton were going to take him with pick 1. You're right about Heeney and Mills though. They would 100% be lost to the rugby codes if the Swans academy didn't exist.
Probably right about Mills and Heeney being lost to AFL.

Is the body type and skill the same for the rugby codes and AFL?

I couldn’t see an Eddie Betts doing well at the Rugby codes.
 

Turboman1994

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I feel like you're just asking questions for the sake of asking, despite being shown numerous time that what the AFL are doing is working. If you keep going, people are going to label you a bitter Collingwood fan who misses the old days when the Pies would make a GF every third or fourth year on average.


Is the Blakey situation any different to Carlton drafting Marc Murphy in '05 though? His old man was a Fitzroy legend and the Lions had father-son access to him but Marc decided to decline his father-son opportunity because he wanted to stay in his hometown of Melbourne and knew Carlton were going to take him with pick 1. You're right about Heeney and Mills though. They would 100% be lost to the rugby codes if the Swans academy didn't exist.
he declined his fs rights and entered an open draft different to having priority access
 

Taylor

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Is the Blakey situation any different to Carlton drafting Marc Murphy in '05 though? His old man was a Fitzroy legend and the Lions had father-son access to him but Marc decided to decline his father-son opportunity because he wanted to stay in his hometown of Melbourne and knew Carlton were going to take him with pick 1. You're right about Heeney and Mills though. They would 100% be lost to the rugby codes if the Swans academy didn't exist.
And that was a free pick the AFL gave Carlton too.

The effect of priority picks is just as much as academy players, extra elite talent on the list stays there for anywhere up to fifteen years after the AFL grew impatient with clubs not being in the top eight frequently enough.

But here is the real kicker, if every club finished in the top eight equally over time then they'd spend most of their time not playing finals.

The AFL can't stomach an 18 year wait between flags for every club.
 

sr36

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I feel like you're just asking questions for the sake of asking, despite being shown numerous time that what the AFL are doing is working. If you keep going, people are going to label you a bitter Collingwood fan who misses the old days when the Pies would make a GF every third or fourth year on average.
The AFL is currently engaged in an aggressive expansionary model. We've expanded already and thus we need to grow our supporter bases, but do we need to continue to expand. Is there an optimal size or are we so locked into the expansionary model that we need to and should aim to continually grow forever.

I personally think the aggressive expansion of GWS and GC was a mistake, and we should have waited until those markets were bigger, but we're there now and thus we need to support those clubs along with the other 16.

But i think my question is a valid one, because it goes towards future decisions around future further expansions. If it's not valid, why don't we immediately add a team in Auckland to tap that potential market in the future? Or another 2 into Sydney.

If that makes me a bitter Collingwood supporter in the eyes of some who think reflexively... oh well. And dismissing views based on club allegiances can go both ways. Why listen to the perspective of someone who supports an expansion club and is thus likely to favour expansion? Thats not an argument I'd ever run with BTW.
 
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sr36

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Heeney and mills would be playing rugby if It wasn’t for the swans no issue with them get access to them disagree with Blakey his old boy is a footy legend and was in the swans academy by the fact they lived in Sydney they shouldn’t of had access to him
How would you create a rule which enabled Heeney, but didn't enable kids like Blakey to be taken as an academy kid?
 

Turboman1994

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How would you create a rule which enabled Heeney, but didn't enable kids like Blakey to be taken as an academy kid?
Set a predetermined criteria that allows them exclusive access under the assumption that x club is responsible for player y being an AFL prospect.

And in blakeys case either financial or draft compensation for the work that Sydney did to develop him if exclusive criteria is met.

but the AFL is useless so I wouldn’t trust them to do this effectively
 

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sr36

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Set a predetermined criteria that allows them exclusive access under the assumption that x club is responsible for player y being an AFL prospect.

And in blakeys case either financial or draft compensation for the work that Sydney did to develop him if exclusive criteria is met.

but the AFL is useless so I wouldn’t trust them to do this effectively
Has merit in theory, but would be bloody hard to do in practice. Most players would be influenced and developed by a huge range of factors, including and excluding the academy.
 

sr36

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I do think the AFL has a preferred success priority list and those clubs start in NSW and QLD, and the other end of the list finishes with the WA and SA sides.

The league doesn't really gain anything from a Freo premiership, Freo is relatively financially secure in this sport.

If a club can get itself out of the primarily AFL funded list with a flag, they'd so much rather that team did.

The draft is designed to bring success to all the clubs on an 18 year rotation, but the system has never been left to do that for long without concessions being brought in to speed up the success for the lower clubs.

The AFL just stacks concessions on top of concessions to balance out the concessions they gave out earlier.

Until NSW and QLD are contributing at least as many players as the four sides there are taking each year in the draft then the rest of the competition is diminished, this is just a short term thing.

There are so many players in the league now that are making their teams better that joined their teams as an AFL concession, be it father sons taken with the next available pick, academy players, priority picks etc.

There might only be a few clubs without any of those, but they are behind the pack and need to keep up with their own.

I don't blame anyone in any club wanting to get a better rort for their side in the total basket case of equalization measures currently muddying the process
It must be frustrating for a team like Freo to watch Sydney getting recruiting concessions in order to grow their supporter base, when Sydney are actually dead centre in the AFL in terms of number of members and have been one of the more successful teams of the last 20 years.
 

Taylor

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It must be frustrating for a team like Freo to watch Sydney getting recruiting concessions in order to grow their supporter base, when Sydney are actually dead centre in the AFL in terms of number of members and have been one of the more successful teams of the last 20 years.
It's not like Freo will ever get reparations for how it entered the competition compared to GCS/GWS, and Freo will still be told how privileged we are now, and we are, but ignoring the years and years of struggle to build.

The reality is that the AFL only care about Freo as far as we achieve what we were created to do, stop West Coast getting all the WA returning talent and add some competition for their services. Otherwise West Coast could offer minimum deals to all the returning WA players and they fall into jobs with Seven or SGIO that make up for the money for the rest of their lives.

I don't think Freo has any priority picks, father son picks or academy picks from the draft at all on our list. We have one player as a category B rookie who passed through the draft without anyone else wanting him.

We have about 40 players in our history who have played over 100 games and most of them aren't of an age to have children over 12. The 150 game father sons out of the WAFL where we could draw from was in an era where WA players went and played in the VFL.
 

sr36

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It's not like Freo will ever get reparations for how it entered the competition compared to GCS/GWS, and Freo will still be told how privileged we are now, and we are, but ignoring the years and years of struggle to build.

The reality is that the AFL only care about Freo as far as we achieve what we were created to do, stop West Coast getting all the WA returning talent and add some competition for their services. Otherwise West Coast could offer minimum deals to all the returning WA players and they fall into jobs with Seven or SGIO that make up for the money for the rest of their lives.

I don't think Freo has any priority picks, father son picks or academy picks from the draft at all on our list. We have one player as a category B rookie who passed through the draft without anyone else wanting him.

We have about 40 players in our history who have played over 100 games and most of them aren't of an age to have children over 12. The 150 game father sons out of the WAFL where we could draw from was in an era where WA players went and played in the VFL.
Freo have done bloody well to build an OK supporter base considering the hand the AFL dealt them.

Just on the last point, and this goes with all of the WA and SA teams, did the AFL even bother to do any research on the number of players who played 150 WAAFL, SAANFL games within the window, compared with VFL/AFL 100 game players for the VIC/re-location teams? Or did they arbitrarily choose 150 games and the length of the window?
 

GC2015

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Probably right about Mills and Heeney being lost to AFL.

Is the body type and skill the same for the rugby codes and AFL?
As is the case in our game, certain body types/natural abilities are more suited to particular positions on the field. For example, speed is a very valuable asset for those who play on the wing in rugby league/union just like it is in our game. Isaac Heeney played on the wing for his high school in a rugby league tournament and scored five tries in a grand final to give you an idea of his ability in that sport. In fact, Heeney was also a gun cricketer and soccer player as well. You remember that one kid in high school that just seemed to be good at every sport he tried? That was Isaac Heeney.

Then you have Callum Mills who came from a footballing family (his grandfather played in the WAFL and represented WA) but he gave the game away entirely because all his school fiends were playing rugby union and he wanted to spend his weekends with them. If it weren't for the Swans chairman asking Mills to fill in for his son's football team at the age of 13 and subsequently adding him to the Swans academy, Mills wouldn't be an AFL player right now. We could have so easily lost these two unbelievable talents to other codes and the Swans academy is to thank for keeping them in our game. Just think about all the talented athletes from QLD or NSW our game has lost over the last few decades due to the sporting environment. Darren Lockyer is a very good example of a football prodigy we lost purely because there was no program in Queensland at the time that was designed to retain a talented junior like Lockyer and now he's considered one of the greatest rugby league players of all time. If you don't know who Darren Lockyer is, think Wayne Carey or Gary Ablett Jr and that's about where stands in terms of rugby league greatness.

I couldn’t see an Eddie Betts doing well at the Rugby codes.
Would Betts have done well in either rugby code? It's a difficult question to answer but one player I can think of that is reminiscent of Eddie is Preston Campbell, who predominately played as a fullback during his NRL career. Campbell was 167cms and 73kgs and Eddie is 174cms and 74kgs. Similar sized indigenous players who are capable of doing freakish things on the field. Campbell lasted 14 years in the NRL and played 267 games. Would Eddie have been able to make it in either rugby code? It's difficult to answer but his size wouldn't have been a determining factor.
 

sydney_gws

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Has merit in theory, but would be bloody hard to do in practice. Most players would be influenced and developed by a huge range of factors, including and excluding the academy.
They should reduce the points discount to 10%, if somebody has a father to have played more than say 10 afl-vol matches make the discount 0%. Also make the matching bids include a pick within 18 of the bid, otherwise 0% discount.
 

sr36

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They should reduce the points discount to 10%, if somebody has a father to have played more than say 10 afl-vol matches make the discount 0%. Also make the matching bids include a pick within 18 of the bid, otherwise 0% discount.
Would work for some of the exceptions that the academy system is throwing up, but there are a heap of other exceptions. Kid growing up with AFL nut parents and thus playing AFL. Kid having been found rather than developed by the academy, kid having been inspired by watching Dusty Martin on tv, etc... If you're going to focus on one of the exceptions, why wouldn't you focus on all of them. It's too hard.

If you want academies and equality, you'd have to work really hard to constantly adjust the zones so all teams have access to the same number of footy playing kids, but you'd be discouraging the academies from growing the game too widely, because wide growth would result in a shrinking zone.

Basically, academies work against equality. The AFL have chosen to go with academies, because they value growth over equality. And if the northern academies are successful and give the northern clubs a leg up, that's good for the AFLs priorities too, because it further encourages growth.

Personally, I value a level playing field over growth, thus I'm not a fan of the academies. I'd probably think differently if I barracked for a northern team; although the Pies are looking like doing well out of our academy too. Some teams though look like they're being ripped off big time on the equality front.
 

sr36

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So would I, but Sydney are always going to have to travel more than the Victorian teams, have to bring in and retain more interstate players than most teams, and don't get a guaranteed home Grand Final if we make it. You make do.
Not arguing with any of that, except for retention - you seem to have done OK on that front and are also probably an attractive destination for those players who aren't enamoured by the limelight. The Vic teams are doing well. A club like Freo though, which is still a developing club that hasn't tasted much success, was comparatively screwed on inception and is still getting screwed on all fronts. They've become my poster boys for hard done by underdogs. I'd love to see them have some success, just not at the Pies expense.
 
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Kummerspeck

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Not arguing with any of that, except for retention - you seem to have done OK on that front.
You think we don't have to bring in and retain more players from out of state because we've done okay on that front? I don't get it.

Even so, doing well in spite of a disadvantage doesn't make it less of a disadvantage.
 

sr36

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You think we don't have to bring in and retain more players from out of state because we've done okay on that front? I don't get it.

Even so, doing well in spite of a disadvantage doesn't make it less of a disadvantage.
I just think you should wait until your club has retention issues before you discuss retention issues as an inherent disadvantage. You have a theory that you have a disadvantage there, but there's no evidence to support your theory. In fact, you seem to be a net winner on the retention/poaching front. Probably just becasue you'v been a pretty successful team over recent years, but location could also bee a factor in that.
 

Kummerspeck

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I just think you should wait until your club has retention issues before you discuss retention issues as an inherent disadvantage. You have a theory that you have a disadvantage there, but there's no evidence to support your theory.
Again, agreeing with you that Sydney have worked hard to counteract the inherent disadvantage of having to build teams over decades from mostly interstate players, the fact that they have done so does not mean the disadvantage is not there.

Which club is in a better position, one who can build their team around elite talent from their home state or one who has to trade in or offer overs to elite talent to retain them?
 

sr36

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Again, agreeing with you that Sydney have worked hard to counteract the inherent disadvantage of having to build teams over decades from mostly interstate players, the fact that they have done so does not mean the disadvantage is not there.

Which club is in a better position, one who can build their team around elite talent from their home state or one who has to trade in or offer overs to elite talent to retain them?
Sorry, I edited my past after you replied. I just think you've been a net winner from blokes leaving their drafted club, so I don't think you can assume that you have a disadvantage there. Yes, it may be a disadvantage, and it certainly makes sense for it to be a disadvantage, but the city itself would be very attractive to some people, so you may actually have an advantage on that front.
 

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