Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

Academies, friend or foe


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Aug 14, 2011
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I like the academy but I think that all clubs should be entitled to develop kids. Dermott Brereton raised the issue on SEN today (https://www.sen.com.au/programs/dwaynes-world/) when he called in specifically to address the issue. While the Next Generation Academies and the Swans Academy are different beasts they do cross similar paths.

I don't think the academy is the issue per se, it's the lack of access other clubs get. I don't have the answer either. Possibly academy kids cannot be matched until later picks in the draft would work but I have no idea. It depends on what the aim is - develop absolute elite players or get more players (read: "later draft picks/role players"). My feeling is the AFL wants the latter while Sydney wants the former.

Sydney are looking to grow the game, unlike the heartland clubs. The vast majority of kids dont make the grade, they even prefer other sports & make there sporting mark elsewhere.

Mills - grandpa was a state level footballer in WA

Ray Mills was a bit more than a State level footballer in his short career.
Young Mills was playing Union when the Swans president convinced his father (a mate) to give Aussie rules a go. He did know of Rays success, call it a canny move by Pridham & in no way diminishes the Swans success.

* Australian Football - Ray Mills - Player Bio
 
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Read those two sentences and you get to answer your own question.

The academies are a separate thing from the concessions clubs get in the draft for academy prospects.

Or don't you want AFL players from NSW?
 
Jul 20, 2008
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No, I'm not. The Sydney academy (and GWS, Bris, GC) are zoned based systems that give priority access to players from a particular zone. In the case of the Swans it's half of NSW.

Any kind of zoned based system won't ever be fair and is impossible to try to balance out. There's no way to make any kind of bidding system fair yet alone control the talent that comes through each academy.

It's nice to promote footy in NSW and QLD. But what does that do for the average fan of any other side - nothing. There's literally no benefit to me if kids play footy in NSW and QLD. They've had 150 years to get their heads around it and haven't been interested.

The AFL like to sell expansion as a noble cause. It's BS. It's a way to grow the TV rights and make themselves more money.
The truth is it's not all about you. Everybody wins if AFL gets bigger in NSW Qld. Think about it.
 

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Arwib

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Apr 9, 2011
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Would you like if we banned you from all drafts, can you live with just NSW kids?

Sydney literally proposed this in about 2005 and were knocked back as it was deemed unrealistic, interestingly enough. The specific trigger at the time was an inability to sell a firm pathway to a young Patty Mills.
 
No, I'm not. The Sydney academy (and GWS, Bris, GC) are zoned based systems that give priority access to players from a particular zone. In the case of the Swans it's half of NSW.


So should we stop private schools like Xavier, Geelong Grammar , PAC etc etc from giving scholarships to footballers too?
Or do we recognise that they are part of the system that develops kids into AFL standard players?

We don't have private schools in Sydney that provide that sort of pathway into AFL for talented sports kids.
The academy fills that role.

If you take away the draft concessions then what does it matter where, or to whom, the kids are zoned?
The problem isn't the zones, the problem is exclusively the benefit derived by clubs in getting concessions in the draft for academy graduates.
 
Sep 13, 2020
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Gulden’s Dad said he would be playing soccer if not for the l’academy. On SEN.

What a waste of a beautiful young boy that would have been.

Just let the swans have some fun for once FFS. You’ve taken our COLA, you’ve taken our trades, you’ve taken our 2016 flag (cheating VFL umpires). Our pockets are empty but for the academy and incredible culture. Please, we have no more to give
Interesting , heard his Dad on SEN . Must have heard incorrectly when he said Errol and his older brother were talented athletes , and Errol had played AFL as a youngster ????
 

Shadow89

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The rules that have been extended to father-son and next gen academies, need to be extended to Northern academies too. No matching bids in the first round. If you think that they'll get bid on in the first round, then you either need to use your first pick to get that player, or forfeit that player to someone else. It's why equalization doesn't work when it comes to clubs like GWS and Sydney - as they keep getting to double dip every year with Top 15 draft picks - if they so wish.

If it's good enough for next gen academies, then the same should be applied to Northern academies. Getting Logan McDonald for free on top of Braeden Campbell, was an abject joke - as was Ash and Green for GWS the year prior.

Academy points should only be able to be used once the first round has finished. After that, amass a bunch of them and match players like Gulden, as it's not as lopsided to the whole comp that way.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Northern academies are a good idea. Should be AFL run and players go into an open draft.

The academies the rest of the clubs have are ridiculous, just a bone thrown to them so they stop complaining about the northern academies. As an example Reef McInnes, why is he any different to any other kid growing up in Victoria playing footy?

Yep. These NGA academies are nothing more than (mildly racist) lip service to non-northern clubs so they shut up and let the 4 northern clubs continue their amazing advantage.

Academies are fine, but the players coming from them should be available to all clubs. Its fairer.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Gulden’s Dad said he would be playing soccer if not for the l’academy. On SEN.

What a waste of a beautiful young boy that would have been.

Oh spare me. Even if GUlden's Dad isn't just towing the party line in support of his sons club, why do Sydney get first dibs on him?

Its an unfair leg up and most of you know it.
 

Arwib

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The fundamental problem for the AFL in NSW and Queensland is there's nothing equivalent to the elite junior pathways that exist naturally due to concentrated interest and talent in the heartland. So past attempts to focus on the 16 and 17 year old end of the pipeline never worked, they were starting too late.

There are too many other sports competing for talent, and locking players into well-defined development programs from early teenage years. Rugby league has a strong juniors structure that aligns with pro clubs and feeds into them fairly naturally. NSW is also the biggest soccer hotbed in the country and soccer structures also tie and funnel kids fairly young. They are sports which don't have a draft system, and the firm link to local pro clubs at the end is definitely an advantage for them in pitching kids and parents, compared to strange concepts like a national draft. Just as a small example, every junior RL kid in the Canberra region is bombarded with Raiders stuff, the under 19s comp is called the Canberra Raiders Cup, the regional body has a big Victor the Viking in the logo, the rep teams play as the Raiders... basically, all the kids know they'll get signed by the Raiders if they're good enough.

So, in the sport's natural state, not many talented kids come through being AFL focused, and those players that do are so thin on the ground that there's little elite support or competition. They don't get the higher level development that comes naturally in the SA/Vic/WA junior environment, and their best option if talented enough would often be to get a scholarship and board somewhere in Melbourne.

The northern academies therefore need to basically replicate the whole youth competition structure and compete with the tied programs of other sports. They have to serve not just as a substitute for top level under 16s and under 18s comps, but also as the only place a critical mass of kids get high level coaching and support at younger ages, and they need something concrete and appealing enough to win parents and kids over from other youth programs.

It would probably be possible to do this with other means, but so far the AFL and other clubs have figured it's cheaper to let the 4 clubs deal with it. They did, after all, approve the model in the first place. The fact that it also helps address the serious "go home factor" and its cousin the "stay for a premium" factor is a nearly secondary bonus to a policy which is basically AFL imperialism on the cheap.

However I think the genuine club link is likely pretty essential, in terms of branding, persuading participants, and exposure to club personnel. The only alternative model that would probably work in terms of continuing to bring through talented players is the AFL fully funding them to the tune of I guess about 8 million for the four of them, clubs still delivering the work. And some sort of tied first dibs access, under a steeper points cost.
 
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Feb 28, 2007
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The rules that have been extended to father-son and next gen academies, need to be extended to Northern academies too. No matching bids in the first round. If you think that they'll get bid on in the first round, then you either need to use your first pick to get that player, or forfeit that player to someone else. It's why equalization doesn't work when it comes to clubs like GWS and Sydney - as they keep getting to double dip every year with Top 15 draft picks - if they so wish.

If it's good enough for next gen academies, then the same should be applied to Northern academies. Getting Logan McDonald for free on top of Braeden Campbell, was an abject joke.

Academy points should only be able to be used once the first round has finished. After that, amass a bunch of them and match players like Gulden, as it's not as lopsided to the whole comp that way.

So for 11 years of investment Sydney would have gained only Wicks and Gulden?

So spending $15 million for 2 players?
 

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Oct 2, 2016
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Oh spare me. Even if GUlden's Dad isn't just towing the party line in support of his sons club, why do Sydney get first dibs on him?

Its an unfair leg up and most of you know it.
Combat go home factors which QLD & NSW clubs face
Other codes are tied to a local club. Parents of talented kids would rather see their kid train for their local team, grow up and play for the same team
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Also people forget, for every Academy player Sydney draft that means another free player from the heartland states that Sydney did not draft that is open to another club.

So if Sydney didn't draft Campbell, who would have been lost to the other clubs? He was a bonus, not a replacement.

The mental gymnastics you guys perform is fantastic, you even manage to make yourselves sound altruistic, even though you know you are getting a wonderful leg up every couple of years.
 
Cool, so tell me why the AFL can't fund and run such a program without a "club" benefiting from it. If the desire affect is too attract and keep young talent in the AFL system surely it doesnt need to be linked to a club.

But let's continue to pretend it isn't about keeping non footy state clubs consistently competitive :thumbsu:

Good question.
Why won't the AFL fund the academy?
Why haven't the AFL for the last 30 years funded academies in the non-traditional states?

Why is it left to clubs like Sydney?

Why should Sydney fund an academy where the benefits of that academy go elsewhere?
There has to be a trade-off.
The trade-off so far has been draft concessions.

At some point we will reach the point where the draft concessions are too much in favour of the clubs with academies.
We are still a way off reaching that point.
We have 7 academy graduates currently on our list. From memory, in total we have had 13(???) academy graduates.

13 kids, over 10 years.
Many more kids have made it into the AFL from Geelong Grammar (or any other private school footy factory) in that time.
 

Shadow89

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So for 11 years of investment Sydney would have gained only Wicks and Gulden?

So spending $15 million for 2 players?


So you're saying they're entitled to their players, before the draft even happens? If that's the case, then why have them inside the draft system at all? Just get the AFL to allow you to sign them as an SSP outside of the draft system.

You use your draft collateral to protect your investment. If you don't, you open it up to the rest of the market. Fairly simple.

As far as I'm concerned, you invested in Braeden Campbell, yet you didn't put 1 cent into Logan McDonald.

Either you think you should get Campbell for free because you invested in him - meaning him going through the draft process is a complete farce given he's actually not really open to the rest of the market - or you think he should be in the draft system, and you should be using your pick to draft him, not 'academy points' that entitle you to essentially get him for free.

Seriously, why shouldn't you 'pay' for Campbell with your first draft pick? Why shouldn't GWS pay for Tom Green with their first draft pick? Genuinely curious to see how you guys think in regards to that aspect

RUNVS genuinely want to hear your position on this as I think you're a pretty reasonable poster
 
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Sep 15, 2007
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Combat go home factors which QLD & NSW clubs face
Other codes are tied to a local club. Parents of talented kids would rather see their kid train for their local team, grow up and play for the same team

Why dont the WA and SA teams get academies then?

Can you deny it isn't a wonderful advantage to the 4 northern clubs?
 
Aug 14, 2011
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Sydney literally proposed this in about 2005 and were knocked back as it was deemed unrealistic, interestingly enough. The specific trigger at the time was an inability to sell a firm pathway to a young Patty Mills.

QBE's gave it funding in 2010.
I know BHP support the Eagles academy.
 
Oct 2, 2016
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Why dont the WA and SA teams get academies then?

Can you deny it isn't a wonderful advantage to the 4 northern clubs?
Academies aren't an advantage, they're an equaliser. If they were an advantage Swans, Lions, Suns & Giants would be winning the comp every year but that doesn't happen.
 
The rules that have been extended to father-son and next gen academies, need to be extended to Northern academies too. No matching bids in the first round. If you think that they'll get bid on in the first round, then you either need to use your first pick to get that player, or forfeit that player to someone else. It's why equalization doesn't work when it comes to clubs like GWS and Sydney - as they keep getting to double dip every year with Top 15 draft picks - if they so wish.

If it's good enough for next gen academies, then the same should be applied to Northern academies. Getting Logan McDonald for free on top of Braeden Campbell, was an abject joke - as was Ash and Green for GWS the year prior.

Academy points should only be able to be used once the first round has finished. After that, amass a bunch of them and match players like Gulden, as it's not as lopsided to the whole comp that way.

The simplest solution is...you only get one pick in the first round...that should apply to every club always...unless a club gets a 2nd pick for being consistently shite for long enough from the AFL.
That would stop all the BS trading for points, splitting draft picks and most importantly guarantees that the top end talent is spread evenly across all the clubs....which was supposed to be the entire point of the draft.
 
Aug 4, 2003
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The less bastardisation of the ‘national draft’, the better.

All things like academies and such does is push it closer to catchment areas and zoning.

If it ends up going that way, then fine, but at the moment it’s kind half way between the 2 things, depending on the clubs involved.
 
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