Certified Legendary Thread Sympathy for *essendon II - over 6500 days since EFC won a final / AC signs w NM, EFC implode / RIP D2D and T_S

[astrovic]

Yes I knew that SOS just was playing on Astrovic's typo.

To be honest I am not sure old Hirdy has much of an idea what he is trying to say, rather than just to shift all attention and blame off his son in a scattergun approach, regardless of the facts that have been presented.

Wasn't a typo - "fight them on the beaches" is a turn of phrase shamelessly borrowed from Churchill to describe when someone goes into all out war mode in litigation (whether for noble or ignoble reasons). Could be a Melbourne legal circles thing, I dunno.

 

[Saintly35]

Wasn't a typo - "fight them on the beaches" is a turn of phrase shamelessly borrowed from Churchill to describe when someone goes into all out war mode in litigation (whether for noble or ignoble reasons). Could be a Melbourne legal circles thing, I dunno.

Aha. I thought you meant "breaches".....nah, probably well known I just hadn't heard of it. Certainly applies to Jimmy that's for sure.

 

[Wild Bill]

Sorry, but this is such disingenuous bullshit that I almost vomited in my mouth when I read it.

Selling yourself as the balanced deep thinker who intelligently analyses the facts and then makes a fair-minded interpretation is laughable. Your previous posts were simply a regurgitation of the Donials that have flown around Bigfooty and elsewhere for the best part of 4 years. The only original element of your posts was the (deliberate, I assume) mis-spelling of Thymosin. I'm not going to run all the counter-arguments because they've all been done to death, other than to note that * admitted to using Thymosin, but then tried to pretend it was the "good" one (essentially a flu treatment), and not the PED. To this end, Dank even tried to get the original import documents falsified by the less-than-savoury Alavi, who refused to do it (but also refused to testify, like old mate Charters).

I don't know what your motivation is, but coming this late to the party trying to persuade us that * were hard done by because there is no evidence of their cheating program is offensive. Then pretending that you are being educated here by people posting stuff that has been in the public forum for years is just a pisstake, since you were all over the other (Donial) side of the argument. "Wasn't as prevalent in the news"? Yeah, right. Only the deniers missed it.




The post you quoted was accurate. Unless you have a highly unorthodox perception of the type of behaviour that good husbands and fathers engage in, you are either denying or ignorant of the facts. Cornesy is just a denier. (PS - look up the term "propaganda" if you ever feel the need to re-run the argument that only the content of an article is relevant, and not the author.)


On topic, like most here I have much sympathy for the Hird children, less for his wife and not that much for James. Hird Snr, Bruce Francis and Amendola can all GAGF.

Great post.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Sorry, but this is such disingenuous bullshit that I almost vomited in my mouth when I read it.

Selling yourself as the balanced deep thinker who intelligently analyses the facts and then makes a fair-minded interpretation is laughable. Your previous posts were simply a regurgitation of the Donials that have flown around Bigfooty and elsewhere for the best part of 4 years. The only original element of your posts was the (deliberate, I assume) mis-spelling of Thymosin. I'm not going to run all the counter-arguments because they've all been done to death, other than to note that * admitted to using Thymosin, but then tried to pretend it was the "good" one (essentially a flu treatment), and not the PED. To this end, Dank even tried to get the original import documents falsified by the less-than-savoury Alavi, who refused to do it (but also refused to testify, like old mate Charters).

I don't know what your motivation is, but coming this late to the party trying to persuade us that * were hard done by because there is no evidence of their cheating program is offensive. Then pretending that you are being educated here by people posting stuff that has been in the public forum for years is just a pisstake, since you were all over the other (Donial) side of the argument. "Wasn't as prevalent in the news"? Yeah, right. Only the deniers missed it.




The post you quoted was accurate. Unless you have a highly unorthodox perception of the type of behaviour that good husbands and fathers engage in, you are either denying or ignorant of the facts. Cornesy is just a denier. (PS - look up the term "propaganda" if you ever feel the need to re-run the argument that only the content of an article is relevant, and not the author.)


On topic, like most here I have much sympathy for the Hird children, less for his wife and not that much for James. Hird Snr, Bruce Francis and Amendola can all GAGF.

I think that's a bit harsh. Lots of us lived and breathed this over the past four years, got ourselves informed, and formed and reformed our opinions of the program and everyone involved as we went along. Not everyone has had the time or inclination to do that. The fact remfan is posting comments we have heard from denialists along the way rings all the bells for us, but they might not know it's all been said and proved wrong-headed already. When peak stupid like Cornes, Newman and Holmes still gets paid airtime, it's sad but clear we are kind of in a minority if we have followed the detail and not been sucked in by the EFC/AFL propaganda.

I will say that wandering in here at this stage and suggesting Hird or anyone was hard done by is about as great an idea as an opposition supporter dropping by to say they don't know all the facts but maybe the Gold Coast relocation would have been a good move. Some genuine research would be advisable.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

I think that's a bit harsh. Lots of us lived and breathed this over the past four years, got ourselves informed, and formed and reformed our opinions of the program and everyone involved as we went along. Not everyone has had the time or inclination to do that. The fact remfan is posting comments we have heard from denialists along the way rings all the bells for us, but they might not know it's all been said and proved wrong-headed already. When peak stupid like Cornes, Newman and Holmes still gets paid airtime, it's sad but clear we are kind of in a minority if we have followed the detail and not been sucked in by the EFC/AFL propaganda.

I will say that wandering in here at this stage and suggesting Hird or anyone was hard done by is about as great an idea as an opposition supporter dropping by to say they don't know all the facts but maybe the Gold Coast relocation would have been a good move. Some genuine research would be advisable.

I suspected some might react that way. However, I have had the advantage of being away from the board (and Australia) since just after Christmas and I read the last few pages in one go. This meant I could see all of the discussion in its entirety and was not caught up in reacting as it evolved. I actually thought your earlier response to remfan was very generous. Here's why I went the more harsh route:

1. remfam comes into the thread advising that s/he has previously avoided it because s/he is above the level of anti * discussion contained therein. Tells us we should shut down the thread. Paints him/herself as reasonable and balanced.
2. remfan then proceeds to tell us that we were all wrong and * are innocent and were hard done by. Simply a re-hash of Donials and ignoring the fact that much of the Donial argument has been disproved. Posts a Graham Cornes article and tries to defend it.
3. remfan eventually backs down when, as usual, the Donial position is shredded, and claims that s/he was unaware of the substantial material around that shreds the Donial position.

For me, I don't accept 3 in the context of 1. and 2. This is why I called it disingenuous. I can't accept that a North supporter is so conversant with the "we* are innocent" arguments yet unaware of why the non-Donial football population is unwilling to accept that they* didn't try to cheat the rest of us

It can only mean one of 2 things - either remfan is a kool-aid drinker, or is truly unaware of all of the facts. If the former, then sure, you are of course welcome to the thread but don't tell us you're above it, that we should shut it down, and we have all interpreted the PED saga incorrectly.

If the latter, it is naive in the extreme, in which case, again, you are welcome to the thread but don't tell us you're above it, that we should shut it down, and we have all interpreted the PED saga incorrectly.

I think your GC analogy is apt.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

I suspected some might react that way. However, I have had the advantage of being away from the board (and Australia) since just after Christmas and I read the last few pages in one go. This meant I could see all of the discussion in its entirety and was not caught up in reacting as it evolved. I actually thought your earlier response to remfan was very generous. Here's why I went the more harsh route:

1. remfam comes into the thread advising that s/he has previously avoided it because s/he is above the level of anti * discussion contained therein. Tells us we should shut down the thread. Paints him/herself as reasonable and balanced.
2. remfan then proceeds to tell us that we were all wrong and * are innocent and were hard done by. Simply a re-hash of Donials and ignoring the fact that much of the Donial argument has been disproved. Posts a Graham Cornes article and tries to defend it.
3. remfan eventually backs down when, as usual, the Donial position is shredded, and claims that s/he was unaware of the substantial material around that shreds the Donial position.

For me, I don't accept 3 in the context of 1. and 2. This is why I called it disingenuous. I can't accept that a North supporter is so conversant with the "we* are innocent" arguments yet unaware of why the non-Donial football population is unwilling to accept that they* didn't try to cheat the rest of us

It can only mean one of 2 things - either remfan is a kool-aid drinker, or is truly unaware of all of the facts. If the former, then sure, you are of course welcome to the thread but don't tell us you're above it, that we should shut it down, and we have all interpreted the PED saga incorrectly.

If the latter, it is naive in the extreme, in which case, again, you are welcome to the thread but don't tell us you're above it, that we should shut it down, and we have all interpreted the PED saga incorrectly.

I think your GC analogy is apt.

Fair points. Also - no-one puts this thread in the corner.

 

[Saintly35]

it's sad but clear we are kind of in a minority if we have followed the detail and not been sucked in by the EFC/AFL propaganda.

Really? I'd say that "we" are definitely not the minority. In fact quite the opposite. (just in my experience of course)

Sure the media usually deliver one version due to AFL influence to suit their agenda, but I suspect a huge % of the AFL community align with our view that the drug program and continually deceptive behavior by staff and players was reprehensible and the punishment fully deserved.

It's just that it's not delivered in the mainstream media that's all.

Fair points. Also - no-one puts this thread in the corner.

Definitely not.

Some quality posting occurring and I'm yet to read anything that could be considered offensive (outside remfans initial claim that "we" are to blame for Hirds health and career position, which was comprehensively shot down in flames.....)

 

[JD-Roo]

The biggest favour the AFL did for * was to allow the case to drag out for so long that the club was able to dump up to 22 disposable schlubs. They were left with only 12 serving players that copped a suspension.

Interesting that the interests of the 22 were completely ignored by all and sundry, including the Hirds, the Watsons, the McVitamins and the Littles, the AFLPA and the almighty AFL itself. The job was to strip off as much of the suspendable playing group as possible, while retaining those who were tagged as probable stars who were young enough to come back.

* supporters should have been furious with this, but the ones who stood by seem to be OK with their club's (failed) attempt to cheat, and then throw away 2 or 3 seasons, plus a generation of young talent. If * had copped it sweet for what they did, stood by it's players and owned the outcomes of this, they could at least be forgiven. As it is, there has been no apology - the only times they've said sorry were to lament being caught out. They had a chance to stand up, but like their ancestral dogs, this administration has failed the test of integrity.

Somewhere in here or on the HTB I made an analogy to how successive Federal Governments had treated the Voyager Survivors...... just waiting for them all to go away and die off.

Similar tactic here...... that they (EFC/AFL/both) stretched it as far as they could until most of the players were off the list. A year or two more of court cases could've almost done the lot.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

Somewhere in here or on the HTB I made an analogy to how successive Federal Governments had treated the Voyager Survivors...... just waiting for them all to go away and die off.

Similar tactic here...... that they (EFC/AFL/both) stretched it as far as they could until most of the players were off the list. A year or two more of court cases could've almost done the lot.

Yeah. 'Twas nice of the AFL to modify the rules, allowing * to play fill in players, when the other clubs that had suspended players were not given the same opportunity. Actually, I don't believe that there should have been any fill in players for the AFL teams, including *

 

[jimandphilbadge]

Case in point.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-01-10/james-hird-was-let-down-by-people-he-trusted-says-father

Two points:

1. Thanks Dad for maintaining the "it was everyone else's fault but James's" line. Good one. I'm sure that helps. Funnily enough, if you step outside that narrative for a moment, this major health crisis doesn't come "out of the blue" at all. Woods for the trees and all that, I guess.

2. Any media contingent gathered anywhere within 10km's of Hird's house should **** right off, immediately. Their door stopping of the *Hird family throughout this saga has been totally wrong.

Well said on both points.
Hird snr reminds me of the mother of someone I grew up with, whenever young Johnny was in trouble at school (often btw), his mum was always down there complaining to the teachers with a "not my Johnny!" attitude. Several years back Johnny landed in massive trouble with the law and was handed a very lengthy stint in prison. He got a massive spank from the Judge when it came to sentencing along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "Whilst acknowledging you have the support of your family, your prospects for rehabilitation are low due to you and your family, especially your mother, refuse to accept you have done anything wrong." The Judge went on to gave examples, and it sounded like his mum gave the same "Not my son!" treatment to the police that she gave our teachers whenever he was in trouble. I guess the point is you're spot on with the attitude of Hird Snr - it doesn't help one bit.

 

[Twinkletoes]

Well said on both points.
Hird snr reminds me of the mother of someone I grew up with, whenever young Johnny was in trouble at school (often btw), his mum was always down there complaining to the teachers with a "not my Johnny!" attitude. Several years back Johnny landed in massive trouble with the law and was handed a very lengthy stint in prison. He got a massive spank from the Judge when it came to sentencing along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "Whilst acknowledging you have the support of your family, your prospects for rehabilitation are low due to you and your family, especially your mother, refuse to accept you have done anything wrong." The Judge went on to gave examples, and it sounded like his mum gave the same "Not my son!" treatment to the police that she gave our teachers whenever he was in trouble. I guess the point is you're spot on with the attitude of Hird Snr - it doesn't help one bit.

Hird Snr reminds me of the ever defensive parent who's forever claiming "he's a good kid who got in with the wrong crowd."

 

[Firestarter]

Hird Snr reminds me of the ever defensive parent who's forever claiming "he's a good kid who got in with the wrong crowd."

Reminding me already of the parents of the guy sentenced to death.

 

[Coalface]

Hird Snr reminds me of the ever defensive parent who's forever claiming "he's a good kid who got in with the wrong crowd."

Run's in the family... a mate of mine had a run in with Tanya regarding the behavior of one of the boys...

 

[Kimbo]

Hird Snr reminds me of the ever defensive parent who's forever claiming "he's a good kid who got in with the wrong crowd."

Well, given it's *, perhaps some basis in this instance?!

 

[Wells Now Williams Fan]

Nothing to add....

Just wondering if this post will be the start of page 29???

 

[Firestarter]

Nope.

 

[Only Forwards]

Nothing to add....

Just wondering if this post will be the start of page 29???

Doesn't your user name need to be changed post draft?

 

[Contra Mundum]

Not seeing a lot of disparaging of Hird for his mental concerns in this thread recently. In fact there is a lot of shadow boxing, where everyone is telling everyone else not to go there.

Hang on, why on earth should I show any sympathy towards Hird? His wife, his children, sure, but Hird?

This man, and this man alone, is the architect of his own downfall. And that downfall has little to do with what Dank and co were up to. Let me explain.

In August 2013, a mediation was held between the AFL and *, including *Hird. The end result was * and *Hird (and others IIRC) accepting sanctions for bringing the game into disrepute. That could have been the end of it for *Hird. He could have copped his 1 year ban, crossed his fingers that ASADA wouldn't charge him (they didn't), kept a low profile and resumed coaching with opposition supporters resuming their customary tribal hatred of him but otherwise life goes on. It would have been ugly, but he wouldn't be the first to come of of that shitstorm ok.

Instead, what did he do?

First he tried to prevent the mediation even occurring by issuing an injunction in the Supreme Court, claiming that his "reputation" was being tarnished. Talk about an ill-advised, self-absorbed piece of nonsense. Great way to stick your head above the parapet and make the issue about yourself. That injunction never even got properly heard as it got resolved at the mediation.

Then he demands that * pay him his $1million salary while he is suspended and jets off to France for a year to...study. Really, for what he had just got banned for, he should have been stood down without pay (and * would have been quite entitled to do so) - and he should have accepted that with some humility - but he strong armed the club into paying him during the mediation, as that was the only way to get *Hird to back down on his threats of continued litigation and accept the punishment. No surprise that particular act didn't endear him to anyone who hadn't already consumed copious quantities of kool-aid.

Up to that point he looks like a right a-hole to me, but he really took the cake when he commenced proceedings in the Federal Court to prevent ASADA's ongoing investigation. As hopelessly desperate as that was, what made it illogically self-absorbed was that *Essendon was doing it anyway! By commencing his own proceeding, in his own name, "for the players" (oh lol), he achieved nothing other than more self-absorption.

Yet it gets better - when he and *Essendon loses - as they were always going to - he appeals. Not the players (who didn't even sue), not the *club, but *Hird personally. Not only that, but he appealed notwithstanding that *Essendon asked him not to. Yet more time was lost as this appeal got heard - and again he lost. Badly. He put the whole hail-mary-let's-pull-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat-and-save-the-players fiasco on his own shoulders, and got absolutely creamed. That's gotta dent the ego.

So at what point does he decide that since the end of the mediation, this isn't actually about him? To what extent had he deluded himself that he was actually doing all this "for the players"? He single-handedly managed to delay the ASADA investigation by many months (which quite a few Hird-supporting journos, like Cornes, somehow managed to try and blame on ASADA, which never made any sense) and completely re-focussed an issue that had stopped being about him, right back on himself. All his emails and texts and all the evidence showing his involvement in the doping scheme were out and pored over and discussed ad nauseam before the mediation, and everyone with an opinion (read: everybody) had already made their minds up. It could have stopped for him at the mediation, but instead he didn't just double down, he doubled down with extra dollop. Just nuts.

You gotta wonder whether in that, you see the seeds of a downward spiral commencing with hubris, self-importance and ego, which when it all came to nought, ended up in shame, humiliation and self-hatred. Hence where he is. You notice none of this relates to what actually happened at *Essendon in 2012 and what *Hird's involvement was or wasn't? For me, it's not what he did, but how he reacted to the fallout, that really has led him to where he is now.

So while I can see how *Hird might have got to where he apparently is, what I also see is that he is principally responsible for how he got there. And in that I have no sympathy.

As for second chances - should I be any less derisive and scornful of his conduct (and I'm talking about what he did post the mediation, without even getting into what might or might not have happened in 2012) because he apparently tried to commit suicide over it? Should I view Carey's conduct with Kelli Stevens any differently because time has passed and he appears to have cleaned up his act? It's all irrelevant - what is done is done and if Hird deserves a second chance, then he'll get one (including from me) based on who he is now rather than what he's done in the past. The reality is that as a person in the public sphere, he only needs a "second chance" if he wants to remain in the public sphere - if he wants the quiet life going forwards, then he's going to largely disappear from view and the only people he needs to worry about are those in his actual circle of influence. What you, I or any other internet dickhead thinks is neither here nor there and if he's not up and about being noticeable, he ain't gonna be noticed.

If I was to give him any advice, I would suggest to him to have a good hard look at the calibre of people that he surrounded himself with during 2013-2016 (starting with his lawyer who ran all those crazy court cases for him, at great expense to *Hird and great financial gain to his law firm, and is still in the media pushing the "*Hird is a victim line) as none of them helped. None. All they did was pump him up, help develop his narrative as the poor poor "victim" heroically martyring himself for a righteous cause and of course, swallow the bullshit he and his media advisor (Hanke) put out as part of the stupid media games *Hird and the AFL played (everyone in the wrong for that crap) and fill his head full of the kind of hero-worhipped self-importance that would appear to have seen *Hird end up where he ended up. Talk about a circle jerk.

Just a colossal cluster****, to which I will shake my head in amazement, laugh heartily at how the whole thing has smashed around the *club (which I despise) and offer not one iota of sympathy. And yes he is a champion of the game (I guess...TBH I only ever watched him playing North, which generally involved Arch tearing him a new one, but yeah the guy could play) and I have no difficulty discerning what players do on the field as opposed to what they do off it (see Carey, W) so that aspect remains unaffected throughout. Otherwise - yeah, good luck to him with whatever.

Astro - Happy New Year brother - that is some quality posting right there - you have justified to me the reason why this thread should never close! What I can't fathom is why the Armadillo (a man I have been opposed too many times and respect) has drunken the cool aid and is still defending him. You can take the client's money but FFS you don't have to fall in love

 

[Tas]

Has there been any information in relation to Hird's mental state? While the media is assuming his over-dose was a result of a declining mental state, and may likely be the case. However, without anyone coughing up any information as to exactly what was going on, there is always the potential that he was in great spirits, partying hard and was over-exuberant while snorting a shot off the naked body of a hooker.

Should people/the media jump to conclusions about what his mental state was at the time?

 

[Kimbo]

James Hird overdose: Hird had post-traumatic stress disorder 'for years' says Danny Corcoran

Former Essendon football boss Danny Corcoran believes ex-coach James Hird has been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder for years as a consequence of the four-year battle over the notorious Essendon supplements saga.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...ears-says-danny-corcoran-20170113-gtrdus.html

 

[Arden]

James Hird overdose: Hird had post-traumatic stress disorder 'for years' says Danny Corcoran

Former Essendon football boss Danny Corcoran believes ex-coach James Hird has been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder for years as a consequence of the four-year battle over the notorious Essendon supplements saga.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...ears-says-danny-corcoran-20170113-gtrdus.html

What stresses are the players with uncertain medical futures suffering, as a result of *albert's actions?

 

[Firestarter]

What stresses are the players with uncertain medical futures suffering, as a result of *albert's actions?

Who cares, apparently?

 

[astrovic]

James Hird overdose: Hird had post-traumatic stress disorder 'for years' says Danny Corcoran

Former Essendon football boss Danny Corcoran believes ex-coach James Hird has been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder for years as a consequence of the four-year battle over the notorious Essendon supplements saga.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...ears-says-danny-corcoran-20170113-gtrdus.html

I guess ASADA should never have investigated and prosecuted then. Wouldn't want anyone getting PTSD now.

In fact, we should completely cancel ASADA, WADA and all PED enforcement bodies around the world, just in case athletes or their coaches get PTSD. Can't have that.

 

[blackshadow]

James Hird overdose: Hird had post-traumatic stress disorder 'for years' says Danny Corcoran

Former Essendon football boss Danny Corcoran believes ex-coach James Hird has been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder for years as a consequence of the four-year battle over the notorious Essendon supplements saga.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/afl...ears-says-danny-corcoran-20170113-gtrdus.html

So the other chief architect of the * doping program is now a psychologist who can diagnose PTSD?

Is there anything Danny can't do?

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[see see]

So the other chief architect of the * doping program is now a psychologist who can diagnose PTSD?

Is there anything Danny can't do?

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Not be a cheat?