Analysis Tactics & Strategy

[Arr0w]

Perhaps I should be more blunt than usual

It amazes me how many posts you open with some denigrating statement.
The words were the clubs - not mine. Certainly they were reflective of an internal KPI, otherwise they wouldn't have said them

You must have missed where I stated that most clubs set higher than usual goals, even if they are realistic, surely you yourself can determine the validity. It's like you are looking to point blame, "Club said X, which it didn't achieve so the club has failed"

No, I didnt
But 66 games was 4 years ago now
I certainly expected we'd be playing finals at 154 games. Every supporter ought to have expected this. Don't try to to tell me you didn't

I believed we had a list that could/should have played finals last year. Does the outcome of not making finals, change the long term view and or outcomes?

As far as CBB setup goes, it almost certainly has - without much change to personnel outside of ruckman. Early season we were getting consistent breakaway from centre bounce. That has dried up to a trickle now. We needed to adjust setup to the ruckman, we had 13 games to do so, and we didn't. Frustratingly we continue to play arguably our best mid (Walsh) off a HFF and hardly ever see him introduced to CB. In fact; we hardly ever see much interchange of personnel through the centre bounce outside of the four mainstays.

Without much change to personnel?, you must have missed the revolving door of injuries across the park, which also impacts play at stoppages. We did adjust after Pitto went down and we were still winning games, so your claim is false

Did you state the Walsh situation was concerning when we were winning? No. Every single side play a main 4 midfield group with other player cameos

And again, the gameplan is a work in progress, same with the continuity of a squad that has yet to hit peak maturity

Who in this thread has said this? This is just being dramatic to attempt to discredit an opposing argument to your own, and you're making yourself look a bit silly

Does it have to have been mentioned in this thread for it to be valid?

If we don't quickly and proficiently address the personnel issues that have been laid bare this year, it will certainly impact what this group is able to achieve in coming years.

Rubbish, it hasn't impacted our improvement from last year to this, nor will it impact our continued rise next year

 

[blues4flag]

My take:

• Early on in the year, we were dominant out of stoppages but that's been eroded
• Our transition game was very poor early in the year
• By the Hawks game, teams worked out that an intercepting tall across half forward would stop our transition game completely
• Took us a couple weeks to get it right, but we then changed to a very slow, short kicking game to stop the intercept
• Worked well for a few weeks, but then teams played a very tight zone, effectively cutting off all options within 30m (including backwards for the switch). This is currently forcing us long down the line
• When teams don't bring maniacal pressure, we execute our skills well and are good enough in stoppage to score
• When teams do bring intensity and heat - see Saints, Geelong and the Crows, we struggle. We're unable to find a loose man around the contest (as the opposition play an extra man around the ball to pressure us), and there's no easy pressure outlets - we just rush kick or handball, transferring the pressure to the next player in the chain. Coupled with a tight press forcing us down the line, the ball is back in a contested situation.

 

[therubbernub]

Without any doubt, our game style has changed across the year, and is a big contributing factor to our current (diminished) output. There's been some chat about it in various threads but I think this is worthy of a discussion on its own...

At the start of the year we were a hard running team characterised by:

• Predominance of play along the tram lines
• Plenty of support behind contests, with forward handball to gain metres. No dump kicking from contest seemed a mantra, if not a team rule
• Forward handball consistently from marks
• Which all in turn created an uncongested forward line when the ball went in there
• Encouraged deeper, and better quality forward 50 entries

Midfielders were kicking plenty of goals, and our small forwards were generally active providing their own contributions working in space. We afforded Cripps the luxury of spending time up forward and he was consistently providing multiple goals.

This was best exhibited in the Melbourne pre-season game and the Sydney H&A game. We scored quickly, we were potent. But we were still prone to opposition run ons, and getting scored against on turnover. So it changed.

From the Collingwood game onwards we have increasingly become a team that:

• Will work the ball to half back, and then bomb up the line to contest
• Rarely play on from a mark
• Rarely forward handball
• Rarely make teams defend us with the full width of the ground (ie. Fast switching), or use the corridor
• Have our small forwards moved so far up the ground to work defensively, that they are rarely a chance at offering potency at goal, and not nearly as much as they should be
• Moves the ball so slowly that we are allowing the opposition to get all their numbers back and clog up our forward line
• Exceedingly poor F50 entries
• Has returned to consistent dump kicking out of contest, instead of outlet handball

We've turned into an ultra defensive, offensive approach (if that makes sense), scared to run risky plays in case we turn it over and handing field position to the opposition. We are so predictable that oppositions know they need to block the corridor, and a kick away from the football on the wing it sits on. It's a game style that is really low on intelligence.

Why is this? Is it a reaction to lost personnel? Is it an overreaction to our defensive weaknesses exhibited early in the year? Perhaps a combination of all the above. However I had hoped that once we got our cattle back, we would be prepared to adjust our game style once more. Saturday night seemed as good an opportunity to revert this, but we failed miserably. I really wanted to see some more variation, a return to our early season method, but to my eye, we didn't even try. Are we now set in this way?

Can it go back? Can it move to a hybrid approach? It may be a bit late in the year to make another shift in game style now. I feel this will take another pre season to correct and get right.

I think as much as anything there an element of Voss realising we dont have the cattle on the wings to reliably play in this fashion. Evidence being the musical chairs being played in these positions. But this current methodology isn't giving us a chance to win games against reasonable opposition either. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

How do we remedy this going into next year? To take the next step we need an sleight of hand A-Grade wing to add to them. This is key

I don't think it's great that we've gone so far in another direction from how we clearly prepared to approach this year through all of last pre season. It must be confusing for the players right now and I think it's proving such through a lack of coherence and efficiency in ball movement. They've gone into their shells massively

I'm not sure what this means for the rest of the year. I've probably turned fairly bearish since Saturday night. But if we are to be any hope of jagging a win or two from the next 3 games, it must change once more.

IMO it's a combination of becoming hunted and the resultant work that opposition coaches put into us now , and, at the same time, we have had injuries to key players
Pittonet
McGovern
Weitering

If we had continuity,then we had a chance to overcome the fact that opposition were going to school on our game plan. But it's been much harder with our injury list, and that shows up in our inconsistencies

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[swuzzlebubble]

Notwithstanding all the great points above, my biggest frustration is the f50 entries.
IMO we have had enough opportunities to win games but simply have not converted well enough which is often compounded by a subsequent score down the other end.

This includes not kicking to advantage of forwards, not being present for the spilled ball and of course inaccuracy.

 

[Wickzki]

Was it possibly decided that our fast starts and scoring was unsustainable within games let alone for the season? So we reverted to a less taxing approach?

Possibly but cookie monster is right in suggesting that we've gone too far the other way.

The kick long and hope doesn't play to our strengths at all. In fact, it plays into our weaknesses. We lack pace and our actual field kicking isn't what I would consider superior to other teams. So it leads to turnovers which enables opposition teams to exploit that lack of pace.

Players must work for one another if it's to succeed and that's been a major criticism of the second half of the year with too many desiring to play hero ball and not enough doing the team thing.

 

[Wickzki]

Exactly, how have Collingwood managed to learn how to defend and attack in one summer but we haven’t been able to.

They've still had guys like Sidebottom, Pendlebury, etc. teaching the youngsters the "Collingwood way."

This is where we really feel the pre-Cripps recruiting blunders. Lack anyone recruited before him establishing standards and continuity.

This is much closer to the 2020 Collingwood than the 2021 Collingwood.

All they really needed was a coach who the playing group would buy into and they were going to be better than advertised. Buckley and co had them so far off the boil last year that we never saw the real Collingwood which has really only benefited their recruitment strategy.

 

[cookie monster]

They've still had guys like Sidebottom, Pendlebury, etc. teaching the youngsters the "Collingwood way."

This is where we really feel the pre-Cripps recruiting blunders. Lack anyone recruited before him establishing standards and continuity.

This is much closer to the 2020 Collingwood than the 2021 Collingwood.

All they really needed was a coach who the playing group would buy into and they were going to be better than advertised. Buckley and co had them so far off the boil last year that we never saw the real Collingwood which has really only benefited their recruitment strategy.

Correct. This is part of a bigger problem.

We are now a complete generation (or more) away from any player that was last part of a successful Carlton outfit. We don't have the generational handover of standards and know-how that the likes of Collingwood do. They players that were last around in the late 90s/very early 00s are not a factor at this club anymore, nor do our current players have any meaningful connection to them. The bulk of Collingwood's current Best 22 played in a Grand Final 4 years ago, some of them played in a Flag.

I actually think we need to look at trading in some older players at other clubs that fit this bill, ala Luke Hodge or Jordan Lewis. They immeasurably helped the rise of their respective teams post-Hawthorn

 

[Arr0w]

Correct. This is part of a bigger problem.

We are now a complete generation (or more) away from any player that was last part of a successful Carlton outfit. We don't have the generational handover of standards and know-how that the likes of Collingwood do. They players that were last around in the late 90s/very early 00s are not a factor at this club anymore, nor do our current players have any meaningful connection to them. The bulk of Collingwood's current Best 22 played in a Grand Final 4 years ago, some of them played in a Flag.

I actually think we need to look at trading in some older players at other clubs that fit this bill, ala Luke Hodge or Jordan Lewis. They immeasurably helped the rise of their respective teams post-Hawthorn

And there it is, the 20 year/generational thingie

Way to completely miss the context of Wicks post

What are the leaders at North doing given many of them played finals, Dogs, WC & Port falling out of the 8

I mean, we can all cherry pick sides that have different timing of cycles

 

[Accidental genius]

My take:

• Early on in the year, we were dominant out of stoppages but that's been eroded
• Our transition game was very poor early in the year
• By the Hawks game, teams worked out that an intercepting tall across half forward would stop our transition game completely
• Took us a couple weeks to get it right, but we then changed to a very slow, short kicking game to stop the intercept
• Worked well for a few weeks, but then teams played a very tight zone, effectively cutting off all options within 30m (including backwards for the switch). This is currently forcing us long down the line
• When teams don't bring maniacal pressure, we execute our skills well and are good enough in stoppage to score
• When teams do bring intensity and heat - see Saints, Geelong and the Crows, we struggle. We're unable to find a loose man around the contest (as the opposition play an extra man around the ball to pressure us), and there's no easy pressure outlets - we just rush kick or handball, transferring the pressure to the next player in the chain. Coupled with a tight press forcing us down the line, the ball is back in a contested situation.

Maniacal....cracking description!

 

[gbatman]

Regression has been huge. Forward's positioning tall and small has been terrible. Tall forwards not moving through the contest to run and jump, just bomb and wrestle. Small forwards are just never there. No link up players between half forward and centre. Our pressure and tackling around the ball has dropped way off. It's all fallen to pieces. Chalk and cheese first half of the season and second half, can it be fixed?

 

[btdg]

OP is spot on. There was a noticeable shift after the Collingwood game as we went back to having a player spare behind the ball. Thought it was just temporary due to lack of personnel, but since the cattle have returned we haven't changed, and the effect has been enormous.

there's now an utter lack of run and play through the midfield, even when the opportunity is there. Every attacking possession is long to the key forwards, and almost always long and deep (almost never to a lead). Every rebound from defence is just 'chip to the 50 in the middle, try to get Saad running through, otherwise chip sideways, then try to chip again and bomb long (if chip again not available then forward leads, bomb long).

Other observations:

• to try and facilitate this we've emphasised small forwards to try and turn the ball over closer to goal, hence dropping Silvagni for Owies
• Docherty has increasingly gone back to 2021 Docherty, and stopped defending (at all) and now just plays the loose/intercepter role, then peels off for a soft 15m kick
• We no longer have +1 at stoppages, which means out midfield is no longer zipping the ball around to get clear and clean possession. Instead, we're often outnumbered at stoppages and have been towelled up by some ordinary midfields as a result (a la Adelaide). Cripps and Walsh are back to being outnumbered, doing a huge amount of body work and trying to do too much

Basically, we have reverted to 2021 football, and we are playing like a bottom 4 team again (last month = wins vs 16th and 17th, losses vs 15th, 1st, 8th). It's a bizarre lack of confidence in a game plan that had us at 8-2 prior to the Collingwood match.

 

[gbatman]

Hopefully see it today but the ball can't be kicked straight at the forwards. McKay and Curnow are our main targets, the need to be on the move, moving through the contest on the lead jumping at the ball. The long bomb to the pack needs to be directed, it can't ever be put on our forwards heads.

Small forwards. They just need to be getting to the right places because we aren't getting numbers to the fall of the ball and crumbing well. Defenders often spoil wide so why not work on getting a small forward to cover that. Get numbers front and centre. Do the basics right.

Our midfield simply is not playing at a high enough intensity. It's always going to be an issue for us because we are a bit slow and a bit immobile in our midfield but that should be manageable. Watching how really good teams play with effort, tackle and the quality of the chase, that's important. When we apply good pressure, when we are hunting the opposition we play well. We did this so well early in the season and then effort became conditional. Compare us to Collingwood this year, Melbourne last year, Richmond at their best, Western Bulldogs 2016. That's what it takes. It's a mindset thing. Turn up to play and turn it up when it's not there. How do we turn up each week and each quarter and play at a faster pace, higher intensity and higher effort? Is it a preparation thing or are there too many big talents and not enough working class types out there who will apply the head and lift the rest of the team? Cripps and Walsh may inspire some by winning a lot of the ball but who will inspire the team by hard tackling, head over the ball hitting the contest and chasing efforts in our midfield?

Backline IMO has been ok but not great. Missed a third tall defender for too long and that third running defender has been a big loss with Williams going down as well as his replacement in Boyd. Weitering being out and coming back out of form and Young being up and down hasn't helped.

Just need to get back to basics. Deliver to the forwards better. Forward positioning changes, talls need to set themselves to run and jump, smalls need to be where the ball falls. Pressure pressure pressure. Token pressure is not pressure at all, get in there with speed and tackle well.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Hopefully see it today but the ball can't be kicked straight at the forwards. McKay and Curnow are our main targets, the need to be on the move, moving through the contest on the lead jumping at the ball. The long bomb to the pack needs to be directed, it can't ever be put on our forwards heads.

Small forwards. They just need to be getting to the right places because we aren't getting numbers to the fall of the ball and crumbing well. Defenders often spoil wide so why not work on getting a small forward to cover that. Get numbers front and centre. Do the basics right.

Our midfield simply is not playing at a high enough intensity. It's always going to be an issue for us because we are a bit slow and a bit immobile in our midfield but that should be manageable. Watching how really good teams play with effort, tackle and the quality of the chase, that's important. When we apply good pressure, when we are hunting the opposition we play well. We did this so well early in the season and then effort became conditional. Compare us to Collingwood this year, Melbourne last year, Richmond at their best, Western Bulldogs 2016. That's what it takes. It's a mindset thing. Turn up to play and turn it up when it's not there. How do we turn up each week and each quarter and play at a faster pace, higher intensity and higher effort? Is it a preparation thing or are there too many big talents and not enough working class types out there who will apply the head and lift the rest of the team? Cripps and Walsh may inspire some by winning a lot of the ball but who will inspire the team by hard tackling, head over the ball hitting the contest and chasing efforts in our midfield?

Backline IMO has been ok but not great. Missed a third tall defender for too long and that third running defender has been a big loss with Williams going down as well as his replacement in Boyd. Weitering being out and coming back out of form and Young being up and down hasn't helped.

Just need to get back to basics. Deliver to the forwards better. Forward positioning changes, talls need to set themselves to run and jump, smalls need to be where the ball falls. Pressure pressure pressure. Token pressure is not pressure at all, get in there with speed and tackle well.

Also need to have a legitimate 3rd or 4th target up forward - keep the backs guessing.

JSOS and Martin both offer that - and are genuinely good overhead. Martin needs to deliver, has been ordinary and/or injured for too long - an elite talent.

Reckon Owies will be much better for the run too.

Zac Fisher needs to stop reading the press and deliver too.

Good luck to young Paddy, the next 2-3 games will likely determine his CFC career.....

I like Marchy back in there, even with Guv - plenty of good interception power there - get the ball to Guv or Weiters and get it rebounding quickly.

Need Walsh to have a meaningful impact today, ditto Cerra. The latter has been ok, but far from bloody good.

I'd put Cerra on Neale, AC doesn't mind crunching opponents in the tackle. Shut Neale down, you've almost won the game.

Go Blues. Worth a bet at 3.12 ....

 

[gbatman]

Also need to have a legitimate 3rd or 4th target up forward - keep the backs guessing.

JSOS and Martin both offer that - and are genuinely good overhead. Martin needs to deliver, has been ordinary and/or injured for too long - an elite talent.

Reckon Owies will be much better for the run too.

Zac Fisher needs to stop reading the press and deliver too.

Good luck to young Paddy, the next 2-3 games will likely determine his CFC career.....

I like Marchy back in there, even with Guv - plenty of good interception power there - get the ball to Guv or Weiters and get it rebounding quickly.

Need Walsh to have a meaningful impact today, ditto Cerra. The latter has been ok, but far from bloody good.

I'd put Cerra on Neale, AC doesn't mind crunching opponents in the tackle. Shut Neale down, you've almost won the game.

Go Blues. Worth a bet at 3.12 ....

100%. Watching Silvagni the last month, when he loses touch eh drops a lot of overhead marks, it's the thing he struggles with that sees him ultinate from being an ordinary every day player to being a very useful player.

Martin has not had consistency all year. Miles off his best. He played a bit of footy as a quality half forward who could go into the midfield and give us a spark and play tough high effort footy. It's really hard to imagine him doing that the way he has been all year. Get him back to that and he is exactly the player we need. As you said, great as a leading marking option as well.

Fisher has been pretty good but he's not elite, still has quite games, needs to step up when he's not winning the footy and make an impact on the game with pressure more. That's what good smalls do, never out of the game influence wise.

Dow gets an opportunity, he's been good in the 2s, he was ok in his one game this year too.

McGovern and Marchbank in there as pockets is our weapon going forward. Gives us the opportunity to intercept a lot of balls. With Weitering, teams should be worried about that, should make them move the ball slower. We can go really tall and strong in the air but not lose anything such as run, speed, ground level etc with those two. IMO going forward it's a strong point. Would love Williams back in there.

I don't care about how much ball our midfield win, Walsh and Cripps had 40 each last week and we lost easily. What I want to see is that quality and intensity of our pressure in there lift and our tackling to be on point. Cerra is a good matchup for Neale.

 

[jpfalvo]

What are the odds that Vosswagen and match committee try to adjust the gameplan to use more corridor play.

Risk the 45 kick at the defensive end of the square and move the footy forward, with momentum.

Collingwood showed again Friday night, keeping the ball in motion, can open up space for the forwards and really challenges opposition

We are too stagnant and predictable.

Makes us easy to defend. No point having offensive weapons, if they are required to jump over 5 blokes to have any chance

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[SurreyBlue]

Some absolutely great points raised and a great thread. Hopefully we can discuss without any personal attacks.

My two cents, change was definitely just before the bye. I think it’s a combination of injuries, tiredness and game basics going back into defensive mode. Players have mentally panicked or thought about the final outcome too much. If you prefer, they are more concerned about not playing finals rather than executing the game day plan.

When you beat Sydney, Fremantle, Richmond, etc. it’s not talent or game plan but it’s a combination of things above the shoulders. The coaches will work it and if the players want to play finals, they adjust and react.

 

[jpfalvo]

More slow play, around the wings today.
No intent to take it through the corridor, or try something different.

Predictable footy.

System has been figured out

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[4flagsin5yrs]

More slow play, around the wings today.
No intent to take it through the corridor, or try something different.

Predictable footy.

System has been figured out

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predictable, slow and stupid.

 

[jd2010]

What happened to Hansen and Hammil being messiahs for strategy and gameplan?

 

[forever blue 1]

TDK has been admirable but we've been smashed in the ruck.

Our mids haven't had first use for most of the year. Our ruck strategy had been to halve the contest and win the loose ball, which our mids have had to do with opposition hanging off them half the time.

Earlier in the year Pittonet was tapping it to advantage enough that we could spread, link up and have space to hit targets going forward.

Our mids have been hammered all year and supporters are wondering why they look spent going into games off a 6 day break.

Maybe this is simplistic but imo this is the crux of the issue.

There are many many posters in here that know about footy more than I but TDK ain’t a ruckman imo, if anything he could be a hybrid Charlie possibly..

 

[forever blue 1]

J

And there it is, the 20 year/generational thingie

Way to completely miss the context of Wicks post

What are the leaders at North doing given many of them played finals, Dogs, WC & Port falling out of the 8

I mean, we can all cherry pick sides that have different timing of cycles

Just wow. Are you a Gemini by any chance?

 

[cookie monster]

Something has happened internally
We are getting worse with each game
We now look as bad as we've played before any coach sacking.
How this has happened over the course of one year is shocking quite frankly

 

[Stamos]

Exactly, how have Collingwood managed to learn how to defend and attack in one summer but we haven’t been able to.

They've consistently had 10 players who lost 2018 Grand Final by less than a kick in the team, plus Jamie Elliot.

 

[jpfalvo]

What happened to Hansen and Hammil being messiahs for strategy and gameplan?

Hamill


StKilda's version of our John Barker
Lifetime assistant coach, with no real success just a good bloke.

We effectively replaced Barker for Hamill.

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[jpfalvo]

Something has happened internally
We are getting worse with each game
We now look as bad as we've played before any coach sacking.
How this has happened over the course of one year is shocking quite frankly

Reluctance to change it up is startling, from a new coach group.

Wide and slow wing play, is what got Malthouse sacked. Dysfunctional forward entries to crowded fwd lines.

Difference we have this time around v Mick is we have 2 gun talls to target. Mick had Casboult.

If we are being honest with ourselves, it is deplorable

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