Analysis Tactics & Strategy

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jpfalvo said:
Hamill


StKilda's version of our John Barker
Lifetime assistant coach, with no real success just a good bloke.

We effectively replaced Barker for Hamill.

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Hamill must be doing something right... aren't we the hardest team to score against since the bye? Hansen on the other hand has been a bit dissapointing imo. Our forwards just don't lead at the ball carrier and too many times Harry and Charlie are in the same contest. Combine that with the smalls never being there for the crumbs. Hamill has impressed me far more then Hansen
 
jpfalvo said:
Difference we have this time around v Mick is we have 2 gun talls to target.
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One of the problems is that unless we win the ball out of the centre one or both of them are usually horribly out of position to impact the scoreboard.

Why?

They've both taken it upon themselves to be that linking marking target further up the ground because Pittonet has been out all year, TDK is a great leaper but inconsistent marking target (in my opinion it's either spectacular or nothing) and Silvagni lacks the height, athleticism and strength to play the role.

This means that when they do get the ball they're in no position to be damaging with it (most of the time) and the F50 is empty unless one of the (usually) non-marking targets has sprinted back to create overlap but when the ball spills out or gets turned over the opposition have numbers.

McKay and/or Curnow should be the next and final link in that chain.

To compound the issue as the season has progressed we've increasingly lost the midfield battle especially centre clearances. When we get clean possession we're fantastic but when we don't...
 
Recall Voss talking earlier in the season about the team not being the finished product (agree) and the game style not being the finished product (agree) particularly when media would jump on the fade outs.

His answer would be along the lines of adding layers to the game plan with an expectation of playing better more balanced footy at the back end of the season.

Injuries and fatigue would have surely dampened the execution of said layers but I'm wondering if the team is just struggling to implement these layers in any sort of functional compacity anyway.

I'll be the first to say I don't know what these layers actually look like but as others have mentioned I can see a slower style overall in terms of ball movement with a pretty much complete loss of midfield dominance, both hall marks of our early season form.

Is it just down to injuries, fatigue and under done returning players?
 

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Blue since 72 said:
Recall Voss talking earlier in the season about the team not being the finished product (agree) and the game style not being the finished product (agree) particularly when media would jump on the fade outs.

His answer would be along the lines of adding layers to the game plan with an expectation of playing better more balanced footy at the back end of the season.

Injuries and fatigue would have surely dampened the execution of said layers but I'm wondering if the team is just struggling to implement these layers in any sort of functional compacity anyway.

I'll be the first to say I don't know what these layers actually look like but as others have mentioned I can see a slower style overall in terms of ball movement with a pretty much complete loss of midfield dominance, both hall marks of our early season form.

Is it just down to injuries, fatigue and under done returning players?
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Played above expectation early, now playing below expectation.

We have been up and going for a while and looks like we have hit the wall.

If we do somehow sneak into finals, the week off will be a godsend.
 
gbatman said:
Body strength is an issue over the board. We were monster's all over the field but a much stronger Brisbane.
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Probably wouldn't be so bad if we were a quick, uncontested side, but er...
 
gbatman said:
Body strength is an issue over the board. We were monster's all over the field but a much stronger Brisbane.
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Then we are screwed batman. Because Brisbane over ran us with speed too.

And right now with the kicking to 1/3 contests I think we are dumb.
 
Justnetime said:
Then we are screwed batman. Because Brisbane over ran us with speed too.

And right now with the kicking to 1/3 contests I think we are dumb.
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Harder running in general play, stronger all over the field.

Kennedy and Hewett out we fall away big time in regards to strength around the contest. We got monstered, out tackled, just pushed around easily.

Our key position players, McKay has appeared to have lost strength, he loses every one on one, he gets out marked a lot, he has been monstered by nearly every opponent in since the mid way mark, getting physically monstered by a young 21 year old Sam DeKoning who was clearly bigger and stronger is a huge wake up call IMO.

No run from behind the contest is a big problem. You run from behind the contest you are in position to apply pressure or receive the ball running forward and do damage, you force the opposition to chase you, doesn't happen and Williams going down has been a big reason for it but it's a coaching thing.

Kicking to one on three contests, again it's an issue. I know front running is seen as a bad thing but all teams front run when they are winning and we just seem far too defensive in our running patterns and ball movement. Again with the one on three, it's an issue if your forwards aren't moving and our forwards just don't move. Go back to basics, lead up, put the ball out in front of them. It's so simple.
 
gbatman said:
Harder running in general play, stronger all over the field.

Kennedy and Hewett out we fall away big time in regards to strength around the contest. We got monstered, out tackled, just pushed around easily.

Our key position players, McKay has appeared to have lost strength, he loses every one on one, he gets out marked a lot, he has been monstered by nearly every opponent in since the mid way mark, getting physically monstered by a young 21 year old Sam DeKoning who was clearly bigger and stronger is a huge wake up call IMO.

No run from behind the contest is a big problem. You run from behind the contest you are in position to apply pressure or receive the ball running forward and do damage, you force the opposition to chase you, doesn't happen and Williams going down has been a big reason for it but it's a coaching thing.

Kicking to one on three contests, again it's an issue. I know front running is seen as a bad thing but all teams front run when they are winning and we just seem far too defensive in our running patterns and ball movement. Again with the one on three, it's an issue if your forwards aren't moving and our forwards just don't move. Go back to basics, lead up, put the ball out in front of them. It's so simple.
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I agree with that. We have just trailed off physically and with our run.

It does frustrate me a little that other clubs have players out and they don’t panic. We have players out and all seems lost. Like Pies have played and won without Degoey and Grundy. Two big names right there and they are completely unaffected. We cry over Hewett out. Geelong just rested three strong names and won easily.

It illustrates that it isn’t about names so much as other things.
 
gbatman said:
Body strength is an issue over the board. We were monster's all over the field but a much stronger Brisbane.
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How many more years are we waiting for the players to locate the gym and start to build some size.

Rebuild started 2015. Some of these players have been on the list for 7years.

Dow looks like the same school boy that was drafted.

Questions must be asked. This isnt a new phenomena

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While they are at it, the whole list should spend sometime in the boxing ring. Learn to toughen up, develop some agro.

We have a list full of players both physically and mentally weak.

Little wonder why, they are easily intimidated.

Some size and positive aggression would go a long way to building confidence and belief.

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Think we need to go back to what got us to 8-2
  • Run and carry game plan with forward handball
  • Chip into the corridor then go
  • switch to open up the ground
  • Set the field so we know where players are coming out of a pressure defensive 50
  • Curnow, McKay, TDK & SOS need to start leading again, make the defenders defend instead of just standing there for the bomb kick
  • Lower the eyes going into the 50 and hit the free targets
 
jpfalvo said:
How many more years are we waiting for the players to locate the gym and start to build some size.

Rebuild started 2015. Some of these players have been on the list for 7years.

Dow looks like the same school boy that was drafted.

Questions must be asked. This isnt a new phenomena

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Yep, questions need to be asked.

Dow - Looked a strong powerful kid in his first season, just gets pushed around, quite literally on the weekend.

O'Brien - He's naturally light but should he be that light?

McKay - Every fullback is lining up to play on him, he has no body strength at all, can't push past players, can't out body players, constantly outmarked, watching him get beaten easily by a 21 year old Sam DeKoning should be a kick in the guts for our strength and conditioning team.

DeKoning - A photo of him with his younger brother, it's clear the younger brother is heavier and a lot stronger. He's still a light ruckman who gets pushed around.

Walsh - As good as he is, why has his tackling slipped?

Weitering - Was the best tall defender in the league, has come back from his shoulder extremely poorly. Lost all his strength.

Fisher - Has become a better offensive player but can't lay an effective tackle, body development has not happened at all for him.

Young - Is not strong enough to go toe to toe with a lot of the key forwards in the league, still has to play off them and jump over them.

Setterfield - He's probably not lacking too much strength but he's not strong.

Cottrell - Still looked like an U18 and looks overawed when the bodies start crashing in at the contest.

Some of our players have pretty good strength. Silvagni, Cerra, Kennedy, Williams, Cripps, McGovern, Stocker, Hewett, Curnow, Newnes, Honey, Owies, Saad. But there are ones who don't and with a few of our heavy lifters out we look like the Carlton of a few years ago again.

We are falling apart at the contests, over and over again it was on the weekend.
 
When Voss took over and was asked when there we’d be an attacking or defensive team he replied with something along the lines of “we’ll be about winning the contest”.

It was pretty evident early on that the key strengths of the team under Voss was two absolute gun key position forwards, a bunch of contested ball winning midfielders (Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett) and great defenders that go above and beyond when the opposition mids do get their hands on the ball in the contest before ours.

The opposition coaches have realised we can’t be allowed to play our way or we’ll dominate. The key forwards are outnumbered every time they go up for a mark now and the midfielders are outnumbered around the contest all day, stopping us from getting clean entries out and making it easy for them to win clearances.

Moving forward we’ll have to even up the numbers in the midfield and work a bit harder on shutting the opposition mids down. We need some more scoring threats too, Motlop looks good and Honey did last year but we need some forwards that can draw men away from Charlie and Harry.

It has been quite a slow response to the issues with numbers and pressure in the midfield, a bit of a concern.

Looks like dynamic players such as Charlie, Motlop, Cripps, Saad are gonna thrive under Voss so I reckon bringing in dynamic players who can tear games apart and have big moments will be something we see a lot of in the future.

One pretty obvious suggestion for future tactics (despite the issues against the Lions mostly being caused by being outnumbered and pressured) would be don’t play four tall defenders against a team with Cameron, Bailey and McCarthy in the forward line.
 
Going back a few years when we had a very poor midfield, Carlton found some great rebound footy through half back and a younger Docherty and more mature Simpson. We basically lost the CBA but looked very dangerous collecting the ball off half back and launching attacks

Voss needs to solve this lack of rebound 50s, switching play like Docherty and Simpson used to do. Right now Voss has a one paced bully midfield and to two elite key forwards Strategy that can for now be countered.

Needs a layer from kick outs and half back that he doesn’t currently have.
 
Great point by Ross Lyon we didn’t tag Lachie Neil

Without Ed & Hewitt in the team do we have no one to fulfill that role? Perhaps Fogarty could have been given a go at that task instead of selecting an ineffective Dow?
 
Wickzki said:
One of the problems is that unless we win the ball out of the centre one or both of them are usually horribly out of position to impact the scoreboard.

Why?

They've both taken it upon themselves to be that linking marking target further up the ground because Pittonet has been out all year, TDK is a great leaper but inconsistent marking target (in my opinion it's either spectacular or nothing) and Silvagni lacks the height, athleticism and strength to play the role.

This means that when they do get the ball they're in no position to be damaging with it (most of the time) and the F50 is empty unless one of the (usually) non-marking targets has sprinted back to create overlap but when the ball spills out or gets turned over the opposition have numbers.

McKay and/or Curnow should be the next and final link in that chain.

To compound the issue as the season has progressed we've increasingly lost the midfield battle especially centre clearances. When we get clean possession we're fantastic but when we don't...
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We need to recapture the that amazing first quarter against the Hawks. One forward leading up outside 50 to receive and wheeling around to kick it to a tall on the lead or a tall tracking back to the square. Was amazing footy. The movement meant that extra numbers couldn't influence contests.
 
Justnetime said:
Going back a few years when we had a very poor midfield, Carlton found some great rebound footy through half back and a younger Docherty and more mature Simpson. We basically lost the CBA but looked very dangerous collecting the ball off half back and launching attacks

Voss needs to solve this lack of rebound 50s, switching play like Docherty and Simpson used to do. Right now Voss has a one paced bully midfield and to two elite key forwards Strategy that can for now be countered.

Needs a layer from kick outs and half back that he doesn’t currently have.
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I can see this on every oppositions board when strategy is discussed…

Sad that we have been worked out to 3 lines on a page…
 
Sector 7G said:
We need to recapture the that amazing first quarter against the Hawks. One forward leading up outside 50 to receive and wheeling around to kick it to a tall on the lead or a tall tracking back to the square. Was amazing footy. The movement meant that extra numbers couldn't influence contests.
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Yep. Instead we have Harry coming as far down as the halfback line because he knows they need someone to present. Then Charlie either comes down too far as well or gets stuck in no man's land and there's just nobody anywhere remotely close to a good offensive position.

I've lost count of how many forward transitions we've lost easy goals from because nobody is in position to receive unless someone like Cottrell has burst their gut trying to make up ground.
 
The biggest issue we have is that we are losing it in the contest. Not winning as much ball and when the opposition are winning it it's a clean clearance. Both of these things make it hard for our defenders and forwards to have a proper impact on the game.

I'm finding teams are bigger, stronger and more intimidating than us around the ball. What I mean by intimidating is that smaller Carlton players are looking to play away from their man and find space rather than stand with them, push off them and win the contest which also puts them in the best position to defend. End up with a hit or miss situation at stoppages and when it's miss we get hurt.

Kennedy, Hewett, Cripps may make us a bit slower but at least we can play close to our opponents, not to tag but to win the contest and to be in a position to apply pressure when the ball doesn't go our way. For where we are at we have lost that contesting ability.

We were winning the contests and applying great pressure and tackling pretty well throughout the first part of the season and it was really supporting our all round game. That has fallen away badly.

Then the rest has followed. We aren't well drilled when it comes to our crumbing positioning. The ball hits the ground and we just aren't there. We aren't well drilled when it comes to our kick, the ball has stopped going to the forwards advantage. On the flip side the forwards are not positioning so they can come hard at the ball so there is an element of them bringing it on themselves.

Our forward running has disappeared. That's got a lot to do with Williams out, and Boyd too. 3 running defenders has become 2 and that means more of their run goes towards defending. You don't see the half back running off the back of the square etc anymore.

The forwards handball game, again it was based around a dominant ruck which we have lost and strong bodies on the ball which have also gone.

At the moment we are short strong bodies around the contest, we just don't have that in reserve, we would have if Ed was to stay fit which makes me wonder if he will go around again. Kennedy, Hewett and now Cripps out and no Ed as backup, there's a big issue here.

We lack run from half back. McGovern is a good runner and racking up possessions but he's wasted with the lack of midfield pressure and he's about half fit. Marchbank is an elite runner who can run like a winger but he has also played next to no footy and is half fit. Weitering has come back poorly from his injury and is lacking body strength and match fitness. We are short one running small defender with Williams, Newman and Boyd down and Williamson retired so the backline is lacking a fair bit of rebounding run. Probably fit enough to run one way but not both ways.

Our forward line lacks experience and leadership. McKay 84 games, Curnow 82 games, Fisher 93 games not all forward, Silvagni 97 games, Durdin, Owies, Motlop, Honey SFA. IMO the forward line lacks leadership and direction. McKay is not playing the role of a big intimidating and enforcing forward, he's getting pushed around by 21 year olds and isn't hitting packs, Curnow has been really good, Fisher on and off and not really bringing it to the contest. Silvagni hot and cold. Durdin, Owies and Motlop have been up and down. Jack Silvagni is a smart and vocal player, he needs to be the one directing and leading that bunch more. I also don't think our small forwards are fit enough either, the role has changed, it's not one you can put raw kids who haven't got a tank, they need to be able to run up and back and hold the intensity.
 
gbatman said:
The biggest issue we have is that we are losing it in the contest. Not winning as much ball and when the opposition are winning it it's a clean clearance. Both of these things make it hard for our defenders and forwards to have a proper impact on the game.

I'm finding teams are bigger, stronger and more intimidating than us around the ball. What I mean by intimidating is that smaller Carlton players are looking to play away from their man and find space rather than stand with them, push off them and win the contest which also puts them in the best position to defend. End up with a hit or miss situation at stoppages and when it's miss we get hurt.

Kennedy, Hewett, Cripps may make us a bit slower but at least we can play close to our opponents, not to tag but to win the contest and to be in a position to apply pressure when the ball doesn't go our way. For where we are at we have lost that contesting ability.

We were winning the contests and applying great pressure and tackling pretty well throughout the first part of the season and it was really supporting our all round game. That has fallen away badly.

Then the rest has followed. We aren't well drilled when it comes to our crumbing positioning. The ball hits the ground and we just aren't there. We aren't well drilled when it comes to our kick, the ball has stopped going to the forwards advantage. On the flip side the forwards are not positioning so they can come hard at the ball so there is an element of them bringing it on themselves.

Our forward running has disappeared. That's got a lot to do with Williams out, and Boyd too. 3 running defenders has become 2 and that means more of their run goes towards defending. You don't see the half back running off the back of the square etc anymore.

The forwards handball game, again it was based around a dominant ruck which we have lost and strong bodies on the ball which have also gone.

At the moment we are short strong bodies around the contest, we just don't have that in reserve, we would have if Ed was to stay fit which makes me wonder if he will go around again. Kennedy, Hewett and now Cripps out and no Ed as backup, there's a big issue here.

We lack run from half back. McGovern is a good runner and racking up possessions but he's wasted with the lack of midfield pressure and he's about half fit. Marchbank is an elite runner who can run like a winger but he has also played next to no footy and is half fit. Weitering has come back poorly from his injury and is lacking body strength and match fitness. We are short one running small defender with Williams, Newman and Boyd down and Williamson retired so the backline is lacking a fair bit of rebounding run. Probably fit enough to run one way but not both ways.

Our forward line lacks experience and leadership. McKay 84 games, Curnow 82 games, Fisher 93 games not all forward, Silvagni 97 games, Durdin, Owies, Motlop, Honey SFA. IMO the forward line lacks leadership and direction. McKay is not playing the role of a big intimidating and enforcing forward, he's getting pushed around by 21 year olds and isn't hitting packs, Curnow has been really good, Fisher on and off and not really bringing it to the contest. Silvagni hot and cold. Durdin, Owies and Motlop have been up and down. Jack Silvagni is a smart and vocal player, he needs to be the one directing and leading that bunch more. I also don't think our small forwards are fit enough either, the role has changed, it's not one you can put raw kids who haven't got a tank, they need to be able to run up and back and hold the intensity.
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Great post as usual.

The loss of Weitering's intercepting, Doc's intercepting, McGovern's intercepting and Young's dip in form has really killed the confidence of the defence too aside from Saad who is just a different beast.

The amount of rushed kicks we're bombing from deep in our own 50 is a huge issue and sides are doing what we did to them in the early part of the season. When we do win it too, we're going inside 50 from too far out. Don't recall early on seeing us kick inside 50 from the centre circle - it was handball until Kennedy/Hewett was 70/60 out and get it deep.

All this panicked play from d50 and unrewarded running forward kills confidence and we end up reverting to kicking it long down the line to half way and hoping Harry marks it - only for another over the top goal when sides quickly switch and rebound.

My instructions to the side would be:
- Play less frantically, both in attack and defence. Doesn't matter if you get caught HTB but don't run too far ahead or get sucked into contests as long as we hold structure we have a strong back 6/7

- Have more than one focus, you can write "PRESSURE" on your wrist tape and chase one guy all day but there's several fundamentals to each role. Small forwards must know when to stay on ground, when to mark or neutralise if there's no tall representation, when to give space to entice a turnover or when to get right in the back of their opponent. Eddie Betts did this perfectly with a healthy dose of insane skill and smarts.

Sadly the biggest hurdle is we're used to losing and in an elite environment there's no space for the level of inconsistency we serve up. There is too much reliance on star players and role players in the side are getting complacent while the stars are experiencing dips in form. Look at the pies and see how a player like McCreery (sp?) goes into every contest, or how Brad Close takes advantage of every moment at the Cats - too often I look at our smalls and bench players and think literally any other AFL player could be in their spot.
 
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