Taking a break from self-hating Jews...

Hawkforce

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Thread starter #1
Interesting article from Amir Taheri.

I'm not so sure about his conclusion, but it's interesting how some injustices are highlighted more than others.

And always by the elite...

WHAT IF IT'S NOT ISRAEL THEY LOATHE?
by Amir Taheri
Jerusalem Post
December 2, 2004
In his recent foray into Ramallah, Britain's Foreign Secretary Jack Straw identified the Palestine-Israel conflict as the most important issue between the West and the Muslim world. Straw was echoing the conventional wisdom according to which a solution to that problem would transform relations between Islam and the West from what is almost a clash of civilizations to one of cuddly camaraderie.

But what if conventional wisdom got it wrong?

I have just spent the whole fasting month of Ramadan in several Arab countries, where long nights are spent eating, drinking coffee and, of course, discussing politics.

There are no free elections or reliable opinion polls in the Arab world. So no one knows what the silent majority really thinks. The best one can do is rely on anecdotal evidence. On that basis, I came to believe that the Palestine-Israel issue was low down on the list of priorities for the man in the street but something approaching an obsession for the political, business, and intellectual elites.

When it came to ordinary people, almost no one ever mentioned the Palestine issue, even on days when Yasser Arafat's death dominated the headlines. When I asked them about issues that most preoccupied them, farmers, shopkeepers, taxi drivers and office workers never mentioned Palestine.

But when I talked to princes and princesses, business tycoons, high officials, and the glitterati of Arab academia, Palestine was the ur-issue.

The reason why the elites fake passion about this issue is that it is the only one on which they agree. In many cases, it is also the only political issue that people can discuss without running into trouble with the secret services.

More importantly, perhaps, it is the one issue on which the elites feel they have the sympathy of the outside world. For example, I found almost no one who, speaking in private, had any esteem for Arafat. But all felt obliged to hide their thoughts because Arafat had been honored by French President Jacques Chirac.

When some Arab newspapers ran articles on Arafat's alleged corruption and despotism, other Arab media attacked them for being disrespectful to a man who had been treated like "a hero of humanity" by Chirac.

Conventional wisdom also insists that the US is hated by Muslims because it is pro-Israel. That view is shared by most American officials posted to the Arab capitals. But is it not possible that the reverse is true – that Israel is hated because it is pro-American?

When I raised that possibility in Ramadan-night debates, I was at first greeted with deafening silence. Soon, however, some interlocutors admitted that my suggestion was, perhaps, not quite fanciful.

Let us consider some facts.

If Muslims hate the US because it backs Israel which, in turn, is oppressing Muslims in Palestine, then why don't other oppressed Muslims benefit from the same degree of solidarity from their co-religionists?

During Ramadan, news came that more than 500 Muslims had been killed in clashes with the police in southern Thailand. At least 80 were suffocated to death in police buses under suspicious circumstances.

The Arab and the Iranian press, however, either ignored the event or relegated it to inside pages. To my knowledge, only one Muslim newspaper devoted an editorial to it. And only two newspapers mentioned that Thailand was building a wall to cordon off almost two million Muslims in southern Thailand – a wall higher and longer than the controversial "security fence" Israel is building.


Muslim states have never supported Pakistan on Kashmir because most were close to India in the so-called nonaligned movement while Pakistan was a US ally in CENTO and SEATO.

When Hindu nationalists demolished the Ayodhya Mosque, no one thought it necessary to inflame Muslim passions.

Nor has a single Muslim nation recognized the republic set up by Muslim Turks in northern Cyprus. The reason? Greece has always sided with the Arabs on Palestine and plays occasional anti-American music while Turkey is a US ally.

When the Serbs massacred 8,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica 10 years ago, not a ripple disturbed the serene calm of Muslim opinion. At that time, the mullahs of Teheran and Col. Muammar Gaddafi of Libya were in cahoots with Slobodan Milosevic, supplying him with oil and money because Yugoslavia held the presidency of the so-called nonaligned movement. Belgrade was the only European capital to be graced with a state visit by Ali Khamenehi, the mullah who is now the Supreme Guide of the Islamic Republic.

And what about Chechnya which is, by any standard, the Muslim nation that has most suffered in the past two centuries? Last October the Muslim summit in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, gave a hero's welcome to Vladimir Putin, the man who has presided over the massacre of more Chechens than anyone in any other period in Russian history.

Right now there are 22 active conflicts across the globe in which Muslims are involved. Most Muslims have not even heard of most of them because those conflicts do not provide excuses for fomenting hatred against the United States.

Next time you hear someone say the US was in trouble in the Muslim world because of Israel, remember that things may not be that simple.
 

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Ha ha, one minute your slamming RogerC for quoting from a fringe site (and quite rightly IMO, sorry rogerc) and the next minute your posting articles from a fringe site. Benador Associates is a neo-conservative mouth-piece. And desite all that, the article was rubbish anyway.
 

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#4
Jim Boy said:
Ha ha, one minute your slamming RogerC for quoting from a fringe site (and quite rightly IMO, sorry rogerc) and the next minute your posting articles from a fringe site. Benador Associates is a neo-conservative mouth-piece. And desite all that, the article was rubbish anyway.
Whether you thought it was rubbish or not ..it gave me something to think about. Whether it comes from someones POV (which it does) or whether it is cobbled together by some '' neo-con'' it still has some element of truth and provided a second POV for me.

The US and Israel are historically tied and to dismiss the allegations are as dangerous as those who dismiss the ''Palestinian issue''. Does the man on the street have less knowledge than an emir?
 
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Admin #5
GuruJane said:
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Can you do a point by point analysis of the article, Jimboy?
Oh come on. It's just scurrilous, why should the Muslim world feel the same about every conflict involving Muslims. Southern Thailand? Aready a rallying a cry amongst Muslim fundamentalists, so should arab muslims forget about Palestine and head East?. Srebrenica? The whole world was in condemnation of that, the perpetrators were relatively clear in a f*cked up war. Even if Muslims have failed to rise up in protest against non-palestine atrocities, does this mean that grievances about Palestine are wrong?

Its just another article from a right wing media outlet giving people like you a poor excuse to continue to justify your warped values.
 
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PerthCrow said:
Whether you thought it was rubbish or not ..it gave me something to think about. Whether it comes from someones POV (which it does) or whether it is cobbled together by some '' neo-con'' it still has some element of truth and provided a second POV for me.

The US and Israel are historically tied and to dismiss the allegations are as dangerous as those who dismiss the ''Palestinian issue''. Does the man on the street have less knowledge than an emir?
What are you talking about? An emir knowing more than a man on the street???

POV are fine, but as Hawkforce well knows, peddling articles from sites which are heavily biased towards your POV are a non-starter on this forum. Otherwise he should be debating the issues raised on whatreallyhappened.com.
 

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#7
Jim Boy said:
Ha ha, one minute your slamming RogerC for quoting from a fringe site (and quite rightly IMO, sorry rogerc) and the next minute your posting articles from a fringe site. Benador Associates is a neo-conservative mouth-piece. And desite all that, the article was rubbish anyway.
Thought I heard my name mentioned...

I don't quite agree with you, Jim Boy. To me, it doesn't really matter where you get your opinions from, as long as you can discuss and defend them adequately.

I agree that it probably leaves Hawkforce open to accusations of hypocrisy, and I'd be happier if he could allow others the same leeway he allows himself when he goes trawling to back his views up. But I have no particular truck with the article in question.

It does appear to represent one person's opinion of things, and it's pretty fuzzy about all of its 'anecdotal' evidence. But it's something, and it does present another view of things.

The big problem with Hawkforce is that he doesn't seem to like hanging around very long after ladling out his abuse. Analysis of pros and cons isn't really his strong suit.
 

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#8
That article reads to me as someone setting an agenda then looking for reasons to support it.

Most of the "oh look how they're ignoring this" cases were quite a way from the Middle East, and it seems quite reasonable for Arab Muslims to focus on issues in the Middle East before worrying about persecution of Muslims in Europe or South East Asia. Hell, half the population of the Middle East probably don't even know where or what Thailand is.

Pakistan's ongoing strife over Kashmir isn't a ME issue - its on the Indian subcontinent. Cyprus - well its in the Med and the Turks have sat on the fence or supported Israel in Palestinian politics and the Turkish treatment of their Kurdish minority and strongly secularist state doesn't indicate too much solidarity with their Muslim coreligionists. Actually about the same as the Baathist's I'd reckon, and the hard core Muslims of the ME weren't exactly friends of Saddam.

The only issue between Muslims and others that's in the ME proper is Israel-Palestine (well at least until the US started up in Iraq). To believe that an issue on their doorstep isn't a huge factor in Arabic politics is naive. Perhaps the US is now more hated than Israel - but had the US stayed out of ME politics from the beginning there wouldn't even be an issue - nor an Israel.
 

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#10
Jim Boy Its just another article from a right wing media outlet giving people like you a poor excuse to continue to justify your warped values.[/QUOTE said:
Amir Taheri is an Iranian journalist and author of 10 books on the Middle East and Islam.

Just another self hating Muslim, I suppose.

You of course have travelled widely in the Middle East during Ramadan discussing society, culture and politicss, JimBoy?
 

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#11
GuruJane said:
Amir Taheri is an Iranian journalist and author of 10 books on the Middle East and Islam.
Who cares who he is...in this case, his opinion is just plain wrong!

I can personally vouch that the issues of Bosnia, Kosovo, Kashmir, and Thailand are very much major issues in the Islamic world, and personally, I am just as outraged at the deaths of the 83 muslims killed in Thailand last month, as I am at any Palestinian death.

Perhaps some of you should visit some muslims forums, such as Islamic.org (arab based islamic site) or for more local content, see what muslims are saying at sydmuslims.com.au or ozmuslims.com.au.

You will see that all these issues that the author raises are very much talking points amongst all muslims, especially arab muslims.

Just last month, after Ramadhan, I attended a lunch of a friend, where many different arabs of different nationalities attended. There were Iraqi's, Egyptians, Lebenese, Palestinians as well as Kuwaiti's, all of us breaking our fast together and celebrating the end of Ramhadan.

The issue of Thailand and the treatment of muslims in the south was raised, and discussed for a couple of hours. I personally found this facinating, as I was unaware of many of the issues in Thailand. I can personally voucher tha the claims made by the author are rubbish. Perhaps in his circle of friends and acquaintances, these non-arab issues are not discussed, however, I can guarantee, this is not the case everywhere.

but hey...a persian critical of arabs...now there's a surprise. And Jane and Hawkforce, supporting anyone that is critical of arabs.....now who would of thought??

I am just as disgusted with the the Russians and there treatment of the Chechnya'ns, and have heard many muslims at many mosques over my time express the same anger at the Chechnya'n situation as that of Palestine or Iraq.

How does our distinguished author explain the thousands (yes thousands) of arab muslims who went to Chechnya, and Bosnia/Kosovo to fight in defence of there muslims brothers? If they didn't care...then what were they doing here.

Just another self hating Muslim, I suppose.

The author in question has made a number of false accusations, providing no evidence whatsoever to back up his claim.

So he was offended that Putin was given a standing ovation at the summit of Leaders of Islamic countries? Well hello, considering that nearly all those very same leaders(apparently muslim....these leaders are about as muslim as Bush and Hitler are Christian) have the blood of muslims on there hands, is it any surprise that they would applaud a fellow murderer.

If thats all he has as evidence...then its rather clear he falls rather short. This article is no more or less an opinion, and I challenge any of you to raise this issue with any arab muslim you know.....and I guarantee you, they will express there disgust and objection against the murder of any muslim...no matter what nationality they may be.

First and foremost, I am muslim, I am not arab, I am not Australian, I am muslim! I don't pick and choose between muslim nationalities. A maylasian muslim to me is just as much my brother as a Bosnian muslim, as an arab muslim.

And many muslims are just like me. Perhaps you all should sometime attend the Geoffcote Street mosque in the City (off spencer street) at the end of Ramhadan and see the arabs, black africans, asians, Europeans all mingle and greet each other as brothers, all equal muslims, all equal in the eyes of Allah, and most importantly all equal in the eyes of each other.

Perhaps you should pay attention to the Haj, where 6 million muslims of all nationalities, race and color meet and worship allah, all so difference, yet gathering and united by the Tahweed (the worship of one God).

GuruJane said:
Just another self hating Muslim, I suppose.
Ha.....what, do you think we are like you zionists pigs???

Its only our resident zionists that make this stupid ridiculous claim Jane. Every time I post an article by a jew who is critical of Israel and zionism, it is always another 'self hating' jew.

MillerCHF has made the claim a number of times.
Banana Bender has also made the claim a number of times.
Eagle as well.

Even you (you hypocrite) have claimed that Noam Chomsky and Uri Avenary are 'self hating' jews, since they hold anti-zionist position.

Not once have I or Ah_19, or any other muslim who may post on these boards ever even uttered the words (self hating muslim).

So nice try Jane.....all you've managed to do once again is make youself look rather foolish. Seems as though you've been doing very well lately in that regard!

ps...I'm so disapointed in you. Still no reply regarding the Palestinian being forced to drink his urine by and IDF soldier.

hmmm....have you been DEFEATED??


GuruJane said:
You of course have travelled widely in the Middle East during Ramadan discussing society, culture and politicss, JimBoy?
And you do?

So whats your point??
 

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#14
GuruJane said:
Reveals more about you than any post you've ever made here.
Does it?

A large proportion of Americans can't point to Australia on a map. Any reason why we should assume that educational standards are higher in the Middle East than they are in America?
 

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#15
CharlieG said:
Does it?

A large proportion of Americans can't point to Australia on a map. Any reason why we should assume that educational standards are higher in the Middle East than they are in America?
Heh, did anyone see that episode of CNNNN when they went to Texas and a bloke they spoke to pointed out Australia and Tasmania on a map, saying they were North and South Korea? Pure Gold :D .
 

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#16
GuruJane said:
You might be surprised how many Arabs, even the poorest, have television sets or access to one just like you.
Yay! Television! The universal educator!

They have geography lessons on TV in the ME do they?

As Charlie and FBF just pointed out, if relatively educated people like Americans aren't greatly geographically literate, why should we expect the relatvely lower educated people of the Middle East to be any more so?

(Oh, and the Americans have TV as well in case you somehow hadn't noticed)
 

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#17
He claims that the average Arab man on the street is not overly interested in Palestine. Big deal. You speak to the average Australian on the street and they are probably not overly interested in foreign affairs either. They are probably more interested in things which effect their lives such as tax, interest rates, unemployement, the local road works, the poor quality of fruit this season etc. To say that it is a non-issue is a big leap though.

Also why should an Arab Muslim be oblidged to be more interested / informed / knowledgable about the near civil war in Nigeria than the average Australia Christian? Why should Muslims be any more passionate about Bosnia than Christians. Why should a Muslim in Cairo care anymore about Muslims being killed in Thailand, than a Christian in Canberra should care about Christians being killed in China?

Why are Muslims held to a higher standard of 'brotherhood' than everyone else? They are as able to engage in civil war as any other group. They are as fractious and diverse as any other group.

He mentions that there are 22 conflicts in the world involving Muslims which are not getting media attention. Well how many conflicts involving Christians would we be getting media coverage of? Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya ... don't see much mention of the African wars on Aussie news.
 

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#18
Freo Big Fella said:
Heh, did anyone see that episode of CNNNN when they went to Texas and a bloke they spoke to pointed out Australia and Tasmania on a map, saying they were North and South Korea? Pure Gold :D .
Yeah and if they went to some shooping malls in melbourne with a map of Texas there would be some who would actually think it was Africa they are being shown.HOW INTELLIGENT IS THAT?.
 

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#19
Maybe the trouble spots of the world eg middle East and Indian V Pakistan
are important to fix, not because Mr Average wants it but when Mr Average
asks for food, freedom, etc.. the Guys in charge play the middle east card.
Like pollies do with terrorism now.
 

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Thread starter #20
Jim Boy said:
Ha ha, one minute your slamming RogerC for quoting from a fringe site (and quite rightly IMO, sorry rogerc) and the next minute your posting articles from a fringe site. Benador Associates is a neo-conservative mouth-piece. And desite all that, the article was rubbish anyway.
I'm not sure that Benador is comparable to the likes of whatreallyhappened and Rense, but I see your point. Actually, I used the benador link cos the Jpost has all sorts of annoying pop ups...
 

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Thread starter #21
RogerC said:
The big problem with Hawkforce is that he doesn't seem to like hanging around very long after ladling out his abuse. Analysis of pros and cons isn't really his strong suit.
Actually my biggest problem is that I'm impatient.

However, when it comes to you RogerC, I've given you far too much of my time debating analysis. THat's why I was so disappointed to learn that you're a tin-foil conspiracy theorist.
 

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Thread starter #22
Lestat said:
and personally, I am just as outraged at the deaths of the 83 muslims killed in Thailand last month, as I am at any Palestinian death.

Which is why you posted about it on this forum?

Must have missed the "self-hating Thai" thread...

Lestat said:
You will see that all these issues that the author raises are very much talking points amongst all muslims, especially arab muslims.

What do the Arab Muslims have to say about the genocide in Darfur?


Lestat said:
The issue of Thailand and the treatment of muslims in the south was raised, and discussed for a couple of hours. I personally found this facinating, as I was unaware of many of the issues in Thailand. I can personally voucher tha the claims made by the author are rubbish. Perhaps in his circle of friends and acquaintances, these non-arab issues are not discussed, however, I can guarantee, this is not the case everywhere.

You are personally vouching for a lot, Lestat. Especially for someone whose total experience of "muslims talking about Thailand" comes from a single 2 hour conversation.

Lestat said:
but hey...a persian critical of arabs...now there's a surprise.

Those bloody persians, hey?

Are Persian Muslims not proper muslims?

Lestat said:
And Jane and Hawkforce, supporting anyone that is critical of arabs.....now who would of thought??

That's right, Lestat, I've formed an unholy alliance with Persians for the sole purpose of oppressing the Arab people...

Lestat said:
I am just as disgusted with the the Russians and there treatment of the Chechnya'ns, and have heard many muslims at many mosques over my time express the same anger at the Chechnya'n situation as that of Palestine or Iraq.

Iraq? Are you talking about the oppression of the Shia majority by the Baathist state?


Lestat said:
How does our distinguished author explain the thousands (yes thousands) of arab muslims who went to Chechnya, and Bosnia/Kosovo to fight in defence of there muslims brothers? If they didn't care...then what were they doing here.

I think it's around about now that it should be pointed out that you've... missed the point.

Taheri is saying that "outrage" over Palestine is vastly overrepresented by Arab political and media elite. THat it is those elite who barely recognise the Thailands the CHechnyas of this world.

I hate to break it to you, Lestat, but you are prime fodder for the media message of these elite. Rich westernised muslims with all the freedoms that entails, spending all their energies and money focused on Israel and Palestine while every other Arab regime continues to maintain power and wealth through tyranny.


Lestat said:
The author in question has made a number of false accusations, providing no evidence whatsoever to back up his claim.

Perhaps, but you are doing exactly the same thing right now...

Lestat said:
So he was offended that Putin was given a standing ovation at the summit of Leaders of Islamic countries? Well hello, considering that nearly all those very same leaders(apparently muslim....these leaders are about as muslim as Bush and Hitler are Christian) have the blood of muslims on there hands, is it any surprise that they would applaud a fellow murderer.

Okay... so they aren't really muslim, then? Lucky they have Israel and Palestine to divert you with while they continue their "unislamic" dictatorial rule.

Lestat said:
If thats all he has as evidence...then its rather clear he falls rather short. This article is no more or less an opinion,

THe way you have reacted shows to me that Taheri might have a point.

Lestat said:
and I challenge any of you to raise this issue with any arab muslim you know.....and I guarantee you, they will express there disgust and objection against the murder of any muslim...no matter what nationality they may be.

I'm sure they would Lestat. And I'd believe them.

But that's not the point.





Lestat said:
First and foremost, I am muslim, I am not arab, I am not Australian, I am muslim! I don't pick and choose between muslim nationalities. A maylasian muslim to me is just as much my brother as a Bosnian muslim, as an arab muslim.

Yes. No one doubts that you are a devout Muslim.

But I can't help wondering - what about those Persian muslims?

Oh... but their Shia apostates aren't they?


Lestat said:
And many muslims are just like me. Perhaps you all should sometime attend the Geoffcote Street mosque in the City (off spencer street) at the end of Ramhadan and see the arabs, black africans, asians, Europeans all mingle and greet each other as brothers, all equal muslims, all equal in the eyes of Allah, and most importantly all equal in the eyes of each other.

Of course. No one is suggesting that Islam is the problem.

Lestat said:
Perhaps you should pay attention to the Haj, where 6 million muslims of all nationalities, race and color meet and worship allah, all so difference, yet gathering and united by the Tahweed (the worship of one God).

Yes. It's a religion of tolerance of blind to the color of skin and ethnicity...


Lestat said:
Ha.....what, do you think we are like you zionists pigs???
YOu always have to spoil things, Lestat...


The problem is, Lestat, that you claim all these things, which I accept you believe, but at the end of the day your "outrage" is focused almost entirely on Israel and "Zionists".

You claim to be equally outraged at any muslim death but have you ever posted about the Sunni terror outrages committed against Shia Muslim civilians in Iraq?

Have you ever posted about the ethnic cleansing of Black Muslims in Sudan by Arab Muslims?

At your Mosque do you discuss the importance of promoting freedom of religion and democracy in the Arab world, just as you have it in Melbourne Australia? Or is this a side bar to the usual invocations against "Zionists".
 

Hawkforce

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Thread starter #23
Weaver said:
He claims that the average Arab man on the street is not overly interested in Palestine. Big deal. You speak to the average Australian on the street and they are probably not overly interested in foreign affairs either. They are probably more interested in things which effect their lives such as tax, interest rates, unemployement, the local road works, the poor quality of fruit this season etc. To say that it is a non-issue is a big leap though.
But current received wisdom is that in order to "sort out the ME" the Israel/Palestine issue has to be dealt with.

Taheri's point is that this is a straw man, used by political and media elite to maintain their grip on power and divert attention from their tyranny.

Weaver said:
Also why should an Arab Muslim be oblidged to be more interested / informed / knowledgable about the near civil war in Nigeria than the average Australia Christian? Why should Muslims be any more passionate about Bosnia than Christians. Why should a Muslim in Cairo care anymore about Muslims being killed in Thailand, than a Christian in Canberra should care about Christians being killed in China?
Why should an Arab Muslim be obliged to be more interested/informed/knowledgable about Israel's existence/occupation of the West Bank?

Was it such an issue when Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan annexed the West Bank? Or Syria's occupation of Lebanon?

Weaver said:
Why are Muslims held to a higher standard of 'brotherhood' than everyone else? They are as able to engage in civil war as any other group. They are as fractious and diverse as any other group.
Exactly.

So why the inordinate attention to Israel/Palestine which isn't even a muslim/Jew issue but an Arab/Israeli issue.

Weaver said:
He mentions that there are 22 conflicts in the world involving Muslims which are not getting media attention. Well how many conflicts involving Christians would we be getting media coverage of? Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya ... don't see much mention of the African wars on Aussie news.
Taheri is speaking to a western audience about the issues being debated within western societies. Received wisdom teaches us that if Israel/Palestine were to be sorted out then peace would reign forever.

Taheri's point is that this is bollocks. Israel/Palestine is pushed as an issue by political and media elites seeking to divert attention from the very simple fact that Arab Israelis have more rights than any other Arab citizen.
 
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