List Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

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Interesting article in The Age today

Essendon is back on track after a cultural shift led to a recruiting splurge.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/essend...ot-back-in-the-hunt-20190427-p51hsi.html?btis

Extract below:

Critics from rival clubs would say the Bombers had not traded picks because they were harder to deal with than the Senate crossbench. Alternatively, one could say they valued their picks too highly to part with them. Whatever the cause, they did not trade in seasoned quality (Brendon Goddard was a free agent).
But 2017 brought a sea change. By then, the Bombers – with clear air – had recognised that there was now a mixed economy, and that, in a liberalised player market, teams could not solely draft and, further, that the blockbuster clubs could sell the likes of the Anzac Day and Dreamtime games to homecoming Giants and Suns. Thompson's old club, the Cats, had shifted 180 degrees from drafting to trading, often targeting locals with a yearning for home such as Patrick Dangerfield.
So, in 2017, Essendon traded their first pick to Greater Western Sydney for Devon Smith (Geelong unable to afford him), rolled the dice on the talented, trouble-prone Jake Stringer and beat off Carlton to sign Adam Saad from the Suns.
Last year, they doubled down on needs-based trading, winning the frenzied scramble for GWS star Dylan Shiel, paying the un-Essendon-like premium of two first-round choices for the midfielder.
Of the storylines that were drowned out by the graceless post-game booing, the most consequential were these: that the Essendon Football Club, mired in mediocrity for a long time, appears back in the hunt, and that their conversion to Hawthorn-like trading has hastened their recovery from the debilitating impact of the saga.
 

citizen-erased

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carnthedons

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BrunoV

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Interesting article in The Age today

Essendon is back on track after a cultural shift led to a recruiting splurge.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/essend...ot-back-in-the-hunt-20190427-p51hsi.html?btis

Extract below:


I don't really understand what this article is supposed to be. It's written as though it is based on insider or at least industry sources but ultimately it's really just a pretty poorly formulated opinion piece.

What exactly is the Hawthorn "model" (or whatever specific phrase he uses)? Trading in players to address areas of need on a list? Didn't that start with building a foundation via the draft?

We built the foundation via the draft and then got in trouble with WADA meaning three things occurred:

1. we lost a key part of the foundation (Ryder, Carlisle, Meksham and Hibberd are pretty hand players);

2. the gain of picks from the loss of the above was offset by draft penalties; and

3. we could not entice more than Goddard to the club during a 3 year period of chaos (we had been heavily linked to "2-first round pick bargain" O'Meara).

But the underlying tone of the article is basically that we're now no longer "hard to deal with".

As others have mentioned maybe we should have had an even more aggressive fire sale involving Hooker?

There is one thing worse than a football journalist. It's one who supports Essendon writing about Essendon. They channel the spirit of this place post loss.
 

citizen-erased

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I don't really understand what this article is supposed to be. It's written as though it is based on insider or at least industry sources but ultimately it's really just a pretty poorly formulated opinion piece.

What exactly is the Hawthorn "model" (or whatever specific phrase he uses)? Trading in players to address areas of need on a list? Didn't that start with building a foundation via the draft?

We built the foundation via the draft and then got in trouble with WADA meaning three things occurred:

1. we lost a key part of the foundation (Ryder, Carlisle, Meksham and Hibberd are pretty hand players);

2. the gain of picks from the loss of the above was offset by draft penalties; and

3. we could not entice more than Goddard to the club during a 3 year period of chaos (we had been heavily linked to "2-first round pick bargain" O'Meara).

But the underlying tone of the article is basically that we're now no longer "hard to deal with".

As others have mentioned maybe we should have had an even more aggressive fire sale involving Hooker?

There is one thing worse than a football journalist. It's one who supports Essendon writing about Essendon. They channel the spirit of this place post loss.
the argument at the time was let Hooker and Hurley go, hope to bank picks 2 and 3 as compensation (whether the AFL would have awarded them on top of #1) - and we likely go a combination of McGrath, Taranto and Clug into the middle.
And lose a backline that is very strong (we'd be reliant on Hartley, Francis, Ambrose as our key defenders).
Long term it may have been a wise play, but i'd wonder where we'd be now if we did. Do we attract Shiel, Smith, Saad, Stringer with an undermanned backline?
Does it change the trading tactics?
Does it change the 2015 draft tactics?
If he wasnt duller than a halfwit, Barrett could do a decent Sliding Doors on this decision.
 

eth-dog

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the argument at the time was let Hooker and Hurley go, hope to bank picks 2 and 3 as compensation (whether the AFL would have awarded them on top of #1) - and we likely go a combination of McGrath, Taranto and Clug into the middle.
And lose a backline that is very strong (we'd be reliant on Hartley, Francis, Ambrose as our key defenders).
Long term it may have been a wise play, but i'd wonder where we'd be now if we did. Do we attract Shiel, Smith, Saad, Stringer with an undermanned backline?
Does it change the trading tactics?
Does it change the 2015 draft tactics?
If he wasnt duller than a halfwit, Barrett could do a decent Sliding Doors on this decision.
The other question would be whether or not we go for those sorts of players. Would we have gone hard at Jake Lever instead? Maybe Steven May?
 

citizen-erased

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The other question would be whether or not we go for those sorts of players. Would we have gone hard at Jake Lever instead? Maybe Steven May?
if i could be arsed, i'd have a crack. I did something similar for a non-GWS/GCS expansion set of drafts.

Questions i'd weigh up is do you go both Taranto & Clug or just one of them, with the 3rd pick for an SPS.
Where is Hartley with 3 seasons of continuity at AFL level
As you said, do we target May and/or Lever?

Do we know about the plan at the 2015 draft? Francis would likely remain a priority, but does Parish?
Or does Adams come into calculation @ the Morgan pick

As it stands, in an ideal world i'd like to see prior to the bye a handful of changes
-Fanta for Bags makes sense to me this week. Keep the midfield as it was on Anzac Day. Get a better forward presence up there
-Look at Langford into the Brown role as a constantly moving forward that gets up the wings and forward. As good aerially and a better kick on goal/field kick.
-Begs for Myers when the time is right.

Francis im still patient on. Take the time, get his tank right. If it takes a couple of years, he'd be ripe to replace Hooker.
 

eth-dog

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if i could be arsed, i'd have a crack. I did something similar for a non-GWS/GCS expansion set of drafts.

Questions i'd weigh up is do you go both Taranto & Clug or just one of them, with the 3rd pick for an SPS.
Where is Hartley with 3 seasons of continuity at AFL level
As you said, do we target May and/or Lever?

Do we know about the plan at the 2015 draft? Francis would likely remain a priority, but does Parish?
Or does Adams come into calculation @ the Morgan pick

As it stands, in an ideal world i'd like to see prior to the bye a handful of changes
-Fanta for Bags makes sense to me this week. Keep the midfield as it was on Anzac Day. Get a better forward presence up there
-Look at Langford into the Brown role as a constantly moving forward that gets up the wings and forward. As good aerially and a better kick on goal/field kick.
-Begs for Myers when the time is right.

Francis im still patient on. Take the time, get his tank right. If it takes a couple of years, he'd be ripe to replace Hooker.
Parish and Francis were drafted before the fact so they're irrelevant essentially. Same with Morgan.

Okay, say we don't get any trade target. Do we draft Jarrad Brander with pick 11? Perhaps Sam Taylor with our second round pick?
 

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citizen-erased

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Parish and Francis were drafted before the fact so they're irrelevant essentially. Same with Morgan.

Okay, say we don't get any trade target. Do we draft Jarrad Brander with pick 11? Perhaps Sam Taylor with our second round pick?
Brander surely comes into contention. was touted a number 1 very early. Ridey too good to ignore @ 19 for me. Should have been closer to 10 than 20.

the bans were known prior to the 2015 draft - i'd explore whether we'd assess the list and make the decision that early to explore it when the 2016 window opened (or even 2015 and gone after 7 & 8 to go with 5 & 6).
 

eth-dog

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Brander surely comes into contention. was touted a number 1 very early. Ridey too good to ignore @ 19 for me. Should have been closer to 10 than 20.

the bans were known prior to the 2015 draft - i'd explore whether we'd assess the list and make the decision that early to explore it when the 2016 window opened (or even 2015 and gone after 7 & 8 to go with 5 & 6).
Talking 2017 draft. I'm talking purely after the bans, and we didn't get any of the 4 S's. So the draft where we have pick 11 (Bonar) and 30 (De Koning) although I thought we originally had 25 (Balta). Perhaps Clavarino comes into play?
 

BrunoV

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the argument at the time was let Hooker and Hurley go, hope to bank picks 2 and 3 as compensation (whether the AFL would have awarded them on top of #1) - and we likely go a combination of McGrath, Taranto and Clug into the middle.
And lose a backline that is very strong (we'd be reliant on Hartley, Francis, Ambrose as our key defenders).
Long term it may have been a wise play, but i'd wonder where we'd be now if we did. Do we attract Shiel, Smith, Saad, Stringer with an undermanned backline?
Does it change the trading tactics?
Does it change the 2015 draft tactics?
If he wasnt duller than a halfwit, Barrett could do a decent Sliding Doors on this decision.

That would have been what Hawthorn did with Thompson and Hay back before Clarkson arrived.

The comments about Hooker above I was referencing were the times we unreasonably offered him and a first round pick for Caddy and even offered him to WCE for a deal I can no longer remember.
 

eth-dog

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That would have been what Hawthorn did with Thompson and Hay back before Clarkson arrived.

The comments about Hooker above I was referencing were the times we unreasonably offered him and a first round pick for Caddy and even offered him to WCE for a deal I can no longer remember.
Two second round picks
 

citizen-erased

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That would have been what Hawthorn did with Thompson and Hay back before Clarkson arrived.

The comments about Hooker above I was referencing were the times we unreasonably offered him and a first round pick for Caddy and even offered him to WCE for a deal I can no longer remember.
ah yeah. that. how unreasonable we were with Caddy.
Hurley and a 1st. Bargain.
Talking 2017 draft. I'm talking purely after the bans, and we didn't get any of the 4 S's. So the draft where we have pick 11 (Bonar) and 30 (De Koning) although I thought we originally had 25 (Balta). Perhaps Clavarino comes into play?
i didnt follow the 2017 draft. was overseas for most of the year. and we traded out of it, so didnt bother reading up on it.
SSS was all the excitement i needed :p
 

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After seeing Geelong play, I remember the talk last year was how poor their bottom six were. Changes were made, getting rid of the list cloggers, bringing in Rohan and Dahlhaus and also playing their 1st years in Clark, Constable, Miers, Atkins etc. All these new names this year and they didn’t need time to “gel”, they just went ahead and played games and winning despite many people not having them as contenders and looking at their draw at the beginning of the year.

I hope we do something similar and looking to move on some players and getting games into Begley, Mynott, Draper, Ham. Myers, Bags to go. How the heck are we stuck with Zaka for another two years?! Laverde gone, his body ain’t up to it and need to let Francis go. Unlikely he’ll be an Aaron Naughton in our forward line. Where to fit him in defence unless there’s an injury? Francis will be wanting to return to SA at some stage anyway and maybe in return get a draft pick from the Crows.
 

citizen-erased

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After seeing Geelong play, I remember the talk last year was how poor their bottom six were. Changes were made, getting rid of the list cloggers, bringing in Rohan and Dahlhaus and also playing their 1st years in Clark, Constable, Miers, Atkins etc. All these new names this year and they didn’t need time to “gel”, they just went ahead and played games and winning despite many people not having them as contenders and looking at their draw at the beginning of the year.

I hope we do something similar and looking to move on some players and getting games into Begley, Mynott, Draper, Ham. Myers, Bags to go. How the heck are we stuck with Zaka for another two years?! Laverde gone, his body ain’t up to it and need to let Francis go. Unlikely he’ll be an Aaron Naughton in our forward line. Where to fit him in defence unless there’s an injury? Francis will be wanting to return to SA at some stage anyway and maybe in return get a draft pick from the Crows.
Not sure how true this will be. Had his chance to ask again last year when his value was up and clubs would have come calling.
Kid is a defender. Pure and simple. He may make his way into the middle for spells, but his gig is a defender. Has a lot of Goddard/Hodge about him in terms of his ability to read a game and set us up down back

We should have swung Hooker forward and Francis back on the weekend. Was a better alternative to Francis forward.

There is a lot to be said about the culture and mentality at Geelong.
Last two weeks have been a bit of a reality check. We're not top 4 material at the moment. But can still make finals. Given we don't have a 1st, winning and getting that culture and mentality right has to be the priority.

And closing the book on some of the fringe kids too
Persisting with Francis, Langford, Parish, Guelfi (and i'd throw in Mynott after his VFL performance yday) over the likes of Bags, Myers and even Zaka right now at least gives us an insight into what they can build to if given the opportunity to play, play in position and play consistently.
 
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bringing in Rohan and Dahlhaus and also playing their 1st years in Clark, Constable, Miers, Atkins etc. All these new names this year and they didn’t need time to “gel”
So true. I’d like to know Worsfold’s answer as to why we needed to ruin a season before we could gel. Was just a convenient excuse, particularly when you look at how well those 3 settled in, especially Smith and Saad.
 

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Did we over-estimate the talent of our youth in setting up our list in the way we have?
We've spent a fair few resources bringing in the 4 'S', and I'm assuming part of the plan was to use them as part of a core in which our youth would be able to support, however it appears that the younger guys aren't developing as much/quickly as expected.
We are starting to reach the point where it looks like Langford/Laverde won't achieve much in Essendon colours, Parish is more likely to be a solid, useful B-grader instead of the A-grader we hoped for, Daniher is still an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a human highlight machine, and our other picks are mainly looking like support/role players rather future stars.
Whether it's a talent identification issue or a development one I'm not sure, but it's starting to look like we've overestimated what we had, and now limited our ability to find the next group of potential stars due to trading a lot of 1st round picks.

The 4 'S' were worth the prices we paid, but without the better support we thought they'd have, we are going to waste the majority of their years hovering around the 6-10 spot
 

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Feel like the last 2 years were tried to go for it and win a final. (Who could forget the celebrations of making the finals.............).
Unfortunately, youth development has paid the price for that.

I think we are at the stage where they need to have a hard look at some of the under performing seniors players, cause they are not going to take the club forward.
 

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On current output, the players i think we can both win a final and potentially a GF with;

Saad Hooker ...
... Hurley ...
Merrett Shiel Smith
McGrath Daniher Fantasia
Tippa Stringer ...
TBC Heppell Parish
... ... ... ...
*Put McGrath on the forward flank so he wasn't lonesome on the bench. Also think he could be a weapon there.

All in all, most of that list is young.
TBC and Hooker hold down critical spots on our list and are 30. Reckon TBC may have this year and another at best. Hooker still looks the goods to play 2-3 years. BZT looks like he'll step into that spot in that time.

Thats more than a draft & free agency away from fixing our starting 22. So we need a bit of the depth to come on.

I am confident Ridley, Redman, Francis and McKenna come into that side. 3 of them help fill the defence. I'd run the other off the bench (Francis perhaps, since he has the versatility).

Which means we need a goalkicker (tall mobile who can ruck would be ideal), and some bench depth added fairly quickly.
 
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Did we over-estimate the talent of our youth in setting up our list in the way we have?
We've spent a fair few resources bringing in the 4 'S', and I'm assuming part of the plan was to use them as part of a core in which our youth would be able to support, however it appears that the younger guys aren't developing as much/quickly as expected.
We are starting to reach the point where it looks like Langford/Laverde won't achieve much in Essendon colours, Parish is more likely to be a solid, useful B-grader instead of the A-grader we hoped for, Daniher is still an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a human highlight machine, and our other picks are mainly looking like support/role players rather future stars.
Whether it's a talent identification issue or a development one I'm not sure, but it's starting to look like we've overestimated what we had, and now limited our ability to find the next group of potential stars due to trading a lot of 1st round picks.

The 4 'S' were worth the prices we paid, but without the better support we thought they'd have, we are going to waste the majority of their years hovering around the 6-10 spot
We are relying on talent rather than system.
 

ant555

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I don't really understand what this article is supposed to be. It's written as though it is based on insider or at least industry sources but ultimately it's really just a pretty poorly formulated opinion piece.

What exactly is the Hawthorn "model" (or whatever specific phrase he uses)? Trading in players to address areas of need on a list? Didn't that start with building a foundation via the draft?

We built the foundation via the draft and then got in trouble with WADA meaning three things occurred:

1. we lost a key part of the foundation (Ryder, Carlisle, Meksham and Hibberd are pretty hand players);

2. the gain of picks from the loss of the above was offset by draft penalties; and

3. we could not entice more than Goddard to the club during a 3 year period of chaos (we had been heavily linked to "2-first round pick bargain" O'Meara).

But the underlying tone of the article is basically that we're now no longer "hard to deal with".

As others have mentioned maybe we should have had an even more aggressive fire sale involving Hooker?

There is one thing worse than a football journalist. It's one who supports Essendon writing about Essendon. They channel the spirit of this place post loss.
The only thing it is really saying is we have taken trading more seriously than in the past but trading has also evolved a lot more as well.

Would be bloody handy to have the those you mentioned still running around for us.
 

ant555

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Did we over-estimate the talent of our youth in setting up our list in the way we have?
We've spent a fair few resources bringing in the 4 'S', and I'm assuming part of the plan was to use them as part of a core in which our youth would be able to support, however it appears that the younger guys aren't developing as much/quickly as expected.
We are starting to reach the point where it looks like Langford/Laverde won't achieve much in Essendon colours, Parish is more likely to be a solid, useful B-grader instead of the A-grader we hoped for, Daniher is still an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a human highlight machine, and our other picks are mainly looking like support/role players rather future stars.
Whether it's a talent identification issue or a development one I'm not sure, but it's starting to look like we've overestimated what we had, and now limited our ability to find the next group of potential stars due to trading a lot of 1st round picks.

The 4 'S' were worth the prices we paid, but without the better support we thought they'd have, we are going to waste the majority of their years hovering around the 6-10 spot
I think they knew we where short in areas hence we are trying to use Langford in the middle. We are pushing McGrath into the middle. I think what is hurting us now are the following.

Injuries. Daniher going down , Razz missing so many games and Laverde continually breaking down. With those three playing at their best we would be a much different side. Begley to a minor degree as well.

Parish getting too many games in his first year and being able to just chase the footy rather than learning more about his craft. Has slowed the development.

McGrath learning midfield on the job.

Not actually drafting players who actually where junior midfielders. A few selections where we opted to try and turn someone into something else.

The draft penalties. Could have been so much more with our first and second round picks to go along with drafting Merritt and Fantaisia.
 
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