List Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

quotemokc

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 19, 2008
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problem with Raz is he won't get us his true value, nor do we get what we need via the draft (the inside mid we need should be AFL ready) and his best needs a fitness base he hasn't had
We'd be trading at low value for not a lot of overall return

Would rather trade our 2020 1st to get what we need.
It's not like we're blessed with an abundance of quality small forwards either.
Trade out our first round pick 4 years in a row

Thats how you build a team......
 

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citizen-erased

Brownlow Medallist
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Trade out our first round pick 4 years in a row

Thats how you build a team......
Depends
There is already talk of a compromised draft next year
Add to that, do we really need another gamble on a kid vs. the potential of snagging someone who fits our list profile?

Taken 4 seasons to start to see the best of Parish and Francis
McGrath enters season 4 yet to reach the heights of Clug and Taranto (not knocking that either, its how long it takes)
Langford and Laverde are 5 seasons in and are periphery at best
The next 1st round pick we took before these guys on our list is Heppell

We've traded in some of the best players on our list the last couple of years.
No reason not to keep doing it.
 

quotemokc

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 19, 2008
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Depends
There is already talk of a compromised draft next year
Add to that, do we really need another gamble on a kid vs. the potential of snagging someone who fits our list profile?

Taken 4 seasons to start to see the best of Parish and Francis
McGrath enters season 4 yet to reach the heights of Clug and Taranto (not knocking that either, its how long it takes)
Langford and Laverde are 5 seasons in and are periphery at best
The next 1st round pick we took before these guys on our list is Heppell

We've traded in some of the best players on our list the last couple of years.
No reason not to keep doing it.
And how are we tracking?
 

kelvin_sheedy

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 30, 2006
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Our list, well where do you start. Lots of crap being floated about an inexperienced list but this is due to having so many old guys that haven't been good enough or injured too long. Lets have a look.

Player - Age - Games
Baguley: 32 - 134
Myers: 30 - 123
Bellchambers: 30 - 129
Z. Clarke: 29 - 110
Brown: 29 - 70
McKernan: 29 - 78
Ambrose: 28 - 87
Dea: 28 - 70
McNeice: 27 - 15
Hartley: 26 - 44

I defy anyone to come remotely close to the age bracket and ability above on a list together. How is it not completely obvious to anyone that works at the football club that this is not the way to go about things. Are there any capable humans left in the there?

Turnover, changes, etc, etc all happen way too late. Its like playing the kids, requires a massive injury list to get some guys some games. I'm still baffled how we went into Round 1 with Myers and Baguley in the side.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Sep 22, 2011
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You know who sums up our list better than most?

Paddy Ambrose.

I like Paddy Ambrose. Who couldn’t? He’s hard as a cat’s head and gives his absolute all every time he plays which, in a physical sense, is a hell of a lot.

And I’ve never met him, but I’m sure he’s a very solid citizen. You never hear about him in the news making “mistakes” and generally acting the tit.

But seriously, look at the sober facts.

He’s a tough one-on-one defender who will give anything to beat his man, which he often does.

But he doesn’t get near the footy. When he does, it’s heart-in-mouth stuff. He’s extremely one-dimensional and limited.

And he’s 28 years old, and won’t get any better.

He played 20 games this year. How are we in a position where this is the case?

We have two All Australian key defenders who are capable of shutting players down. We have Francis, who’s shown some insane things in his first 20 games. We’ve had a promising, big key back in BZT in the reserves for a long time, who finally got a debut and looked decent and at least comfortable. We’ve got Gleeson, who looks to get better with every game coming back from injury.

But as I said, Ambrose played 20 games this year. Why? Even as supporters, we like to think of ourselves as much tougher on players than the coaches... yet so many shrieked at the thought of leaving him out.

Because “he does his job and puts in 100% effort”.

In the one area we’re stacked for depth, we play this bloke for those shallow reasons.

Why not strive to be something better? If there’s one area of the ground we could carry somebody to get experience into them, this is where we’d do it, with so many other options for coverage during the game. Why not take a step back to potentially go forward? We’ve seen with the likes of Parish and Francis that players get better with games when they’re young. That’s always been the cases.

How do we go to the next step? Ambrose would be emergency depth in any top 4 club and would barely get a game. Not given a game because he’s good at one thing. He’s seemingly one of the first on the team sheet for us.

And on it goes. Not so much this season but we’ve seen young mids getting dropped for Myers if they had a bad game or two. Same with Baguley.

If we want to shed mediocrity then we have to shed mediocrity.

Some people say “you can’t just give them games!” Of course you can. You do it in the hope of becoming an elite team rather than being a middling one. And fast tracking that process by taking a hit now to benefit later.
 

ant555

The Oracle
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You know who sums up our list better than most?

Paddy Ambrose.

I like Paddy Ambrose. Who couldn’t? He’s hard as a cat’s head and gives his absolute all every time he plays which, in a physical sense, is a hell of a lot.

And I’ve never met him, but I’m sure he’s a very solid citizen. You never hear about him in the news making “mistakes” and generally acting the tit.

But seriously, look at the sober facts.

He’s a tough one-on-one defender who will give anything to beat his man, which he often does.

But he doesn’t get near the footy. When he does, it’s heart-in-mouth stuff. He’s extremely one-dimensional and limited.

And he’s 28 years old, and won’t get any better.

He played 20 games this year. How are we in a position where this is the case?

We have two All Australian key defenders who are capable of shutting players down. We have Francis, who’s shown some insane things in his first 20 games. We’ve had a promising, big key back in BZT in the reserves for a long time, who finally got a debut and looked decent and at least comfortable. We’ve got Gleeson, who looks to get better with every game coming back from injury.

But as I said, Ambrose played 20 games this year. Why? Even as supporters, we like to think of ourselves as much tougher on players than the coaches... yet so many shrieked at the thought of leaving him out.

Because “he does his job and puts in 100% effort”.

In the one area we’re stacked for depth, we play this bloke for those shallow reasons.

Why not strive to be something better? If there’s one area of the ground we could carry somebody to get experience into them, this is where we’d do it, with so many other options for coverage during the game. Why not take a step back to potentially go forward? We’ve seen with the likes of Parish and Francis that players get better with games when they’re young. That’s always been the cases.

How do we go to the next step? Ambrose would be emergency depth in any top 4 club and would barely get a game. Not given a game because he’s good at one thing. He’s seemingly one of the first on the team sheet for us.

And on it goes. Not so much this season but we’ve seen young mids getting dropped for Myers if they had a bad game or two. Same with Baguley.

If we want to shed mediocrity then we have to shed mediocrity.

Some people say “you can’t just give them games!” Of course you can. You do it in the hope of becoming an elite team rather than being a middling one. And fast tracking that process by taking a hit now to benefit later.
I agree with the principle of your argument but you also have to have young defenders ready.
At the start of the year Francis and BZT could not be expected to take on the jobs Ambrose does. As the year has gone on Francis has improved to the level where he holds his place but he is not a genuine KPD. He is more of your intercept defender than the one on one player. The bloke who peels of and goes third up to punch of take a mark.
BZK has come along but missed time mid season due to injury and took a bit to get going again.
You give games to players who show the form. Lets face it giving games to Begley of average VFL form this year did nothing for him.
BZK has had a few homesickness issues at stages so I doubt throwing him to the wolves too early would have been a good idea. Good clubs do not just play kids. They earn their stripes.
So this year I had no problem with Ambrose doing what he does. I agree , you do not want the ball in his hands and he is a spot we need to upgrade but this year he was the best one on one defender for most of the year.
Next season that is another story.
 

Bunk Moreland

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I agree with the principle of your argument but you also have to have young defenders ready.
At the start of the year Francis and BZT could not be expected to take on the jobs Ambrose does. As the year has gone on Francis has improved to the level where he holds his place but he is not a genuine KPD. He is more of your intercept defender than the one on one player. The bloke who peels of and goes third up to punch of take a mark.
BZK has come along but missed time mid season due to injury and took a bit to get going again.
You give games to players who show the form. Lets face it giving games to Begley of average VFL form this year did nothing for him.
BZK has had a few homesickness issues at stages so I doubt throwing him to the wolves too early would have been a good idea. Good clubs do not just play kids. They earn their stripes.
So this year I had no problem with Ambrose doing what he does. I agree , you do not want the ball in his hands and he is a spot we need to upgrade but this year he was the best one on one defender for most of the year.
Next season that is another story.
They’d don’t just play them once they’re good sides - but what about before they became good sides?
 

Zach Package

Kyle Langfourd
Sep 21, 2012
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He's had a good year but Smack is still behind Daniher and Hooker as key forwards. He didn't even kick 20 goals.
McKernan is basically the best version of the contested marking deep forward/chop out ruckman you could hope for. We’ve asked him to play beyond his remit this year and shoulder responsibility that’s a bit beyond a role player but the only way he’s not a lock for me next year is if Ryder returns.

You know who sums up our list better than most?

Paddy Ambrose.

I like Paddy Ambrose. Who couldn’t? He’s hard as a cat’s head and gives his absolute all every time he plays which, in a physical sense, is a hell of a lot.

And I’ve never met him, but I’m sure he’s a very solid citizen. You never hear about him in the news making “mistakes” and generally acting the tit.

But seriously, look at the sober facts.

He’s a tough one-on-one defender who will give anything to beat his man, which he often does.

But he doesn’t get near the footy. When he does, it’s heart-in-mouth stuff. He’s extremely one-dimensional and limited.

And he’s 28 years old, and won’t get any better.

He played 20 games this year. How are we in a position where this is the case?

We have two All Australian key defenders who are capable of shutting players down. We have Francis, who’s shown some insane things in his first 20 games. We’ve had a promising, big key back in BZT in the reserves for a long time, who finally got a debut and looked decent and at least comfortable. We’ve got Gleeson, who looks to get better with every game coming back from injury.

But as I said, Ambrose played 20 games this year. Why? Even as supporters, we like to think of ourselves as much tougher on players than the coaches... yet so many shrieked at the thought of leaving him out.

Because “he does his job and puts in 100% effort”.

In the one area we’re stacked for depth, we play this bloke for those shallow reasons.

Why not strive to be something better? If there’s one area of the ground we could carry somebody to get experience into them, this is where we’d do it, with so many other options for coverage during the game. Why not take a step back to potentially go forward? We’ve seen with the likes of Parish and Francis that players get better with games when they’re young. That’s always been the cases.

How do we go to the next step? Ambrose would be emergency depth in any top 4 club and would barely get a game. Not given a game because he’s good at one thing. He’s seemingly one of the first on the team sheet for us
I used to share this view but he’s improved his deficiencies heaps, his intercept marking is much improved and his kicking is still safe but it’s far steadier than he started. He can also seriously defend. I’m not sure anything about him is mediocre anymore apart from his ego and his pay packet.

Strange bone to pick at the moment given he smashed Darling on Thursday and was probably our 2nd or 3rd best
 

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Nuggs Bunny

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If you want a player that sums up our list, it's Kyle Langford. He typifies the clubs approach to drafting; the vision that if we draft a player with a decent skill-set, we can make them into anything. We can draft forwards and make them into inside mids, half backs we can turn into wingers, skilled but immature players we can make into dedicated professionals.

We've drafted so many players recently that have been the best talent available at that pick with intentions that we'll build them into a totally different sort of player, if we need to. Langford is the best example, but you could also say Laverde, Begley and even McGrath fall into that category as well. Or in similar cases, drafting wayward talents like Morgan or Eades or Houlahan and hoping they can pull it together at AFL level.

I still feel sorry for Kyle. Whether he succeeded or failed, had he been played as a half forward his whole career he would had a much smoother and more predictable ride while doing so. We've f’ed him (and others) around on a wild goose chase and it hasn't worked.
 

Yoda_

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May 6, 2007
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If you want a player that sums up our list, it's Kyle Langford. He typifies the clubs approach to drafting; the vision that if we draft a player with a decent skill-set, we can make them into anything. We can draft forwards and make them into inside mids, half backs we can turn into wingers, skilled but immature players we can make into dedicated professionals.

We've drafted so many players recently that have been the best talent available at that pick with intentions that we'll build them into a totally different sort of player, if we need to. Langford is the best example, but you could also say Laverde, Begley and even McGrath fall into that category as well. Or in similar cases, drafting wayward talents like Morgan or Eades or Houlahan and hoping they can pull it together at AFL level.

I still feel sorry for Kyle. Whether he succeeded or failed, had he been played as a half forward his whole career he would had a much smoother and more predictable ride while doing so. We've f’ed him (and others) around on a wild goose chase and it hasn't worked.
Just Adrian Dodoro trying to outwit everyone else. Think it was Zach Package that said Dodoro should stick phat with 29 & 31 and simply select two meat and potatoes mids with those two picks.
 

Zach Package

Kyle Langfourd
Sep 21, 2012
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Just Adrian Dodoro trying to outwit everyone else. Think it was Zach Package that said Dodoro should stick phat with 29 & 31 and simply select two meat and potatoes mids with those two picks.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with picking on attributes and tools and trying to develop them but at the moment gimme more meat and more potatoes. 2 pig in s**t midfielders who thrive on contact.

Richmond are currently cruising into a prelim and they’re not even trying to hit targets, they’re crushing the contest and barrelling it forward as fast as possible.
 

Yoda_

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with picking on attributes and tools and trying to develop them but at the moment gimme more meat and more potatoes. 2 pig in s**t midfielders who thrive on contact.

Richmond are currently cruising into a prelim and they’re not even trying to hit targets, they’re crushing the contest and barrelling it forward as fast as possible.
To be fair, Richmond are the best front running side I have seen in the last 20 years. Phenomenal work rate to apply it conistently.
 

Bjchan13

Team Captain
Jul 23, 2018
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Pretty obvious who we need to delist/retire. Dea, long, bags, houlihan, zach clarke, myers, mcniece. Mitch Brown if he wants another year needs to play for peanuts. Hartley id give another year if he doesnt get any better offers. After that id like us to use our 2 second rnd picks on the best available inside mids. Id like us to trade our 3rd rnd pick to get someones no2 ruckman. Someone else mentioned this but Soldo would be ideal. After that use late draft picks to find a pressure forward that wants to lock the ball inside our 50, and a wingman (2way runner). Id be happy if thats all we did.
 

Bombers36

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I can really think of only about 9 players on our list who have earnt their money this year and I'm exited about having on the list;-

Saad, McKenna, Tippa, Hurley, Stringer, Francis, Merrett, Parish, Redman


There's 4 or 5 who've been decent but have had periods of injuries/form drop offs;-

Shiel, Heppell, Fantasia, McGrath, Hooker



and 3 injured players who who you would think will help us next year in : Daniher, Draper, Smith


Outside of these guys who have we really got...??
 
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JayJ20

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We just can't have Merrett, Shiel, McGrath and Parish supporting Heppell next year. Way too undersized, both in weight and height.

There should be at least two more big bodied inside mids to support Heppell so that Merrett and Shiel can be at their damaging best. Merrett isn't suited to bash and crash. We take away our best kick to play him in a role that doesn't give him time and space, which is counterproductive.

Ollie Wines would be perfect. Mitch Hibberd the other one. D. Clarke would also give us much needed depth.
But of course we want Jack Martin, exactly the player we don't need.
 
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ghostdog

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Depends
There is already talk of a compromised draft next year
Add to that, do we really need another gamble on a kid vs. the potential of snagging someone who fits our list profile?

Taken 4 seasons to start to see the best of Parish and Francis
McGrath enters season 4 yet to reach the heights of Clug and Taranto (not knocking that either, its how long it takes)
Langford and Laverde are 5 seasons in and are periphery at best
The next 1st round pick we took before these guys on our list is Heppell

We've traded in some of the best players on our list the last couple of years.
No reason not to keep doing it.
It's unsustainable though. We'd reach a point where the majority of the list is in the TBell, Hooker situation of never operating at their original capacity. It would mean you spend years mired in the bottom 8.
 

The Donners

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It depends on how big of a list change we want to make. I could only find a list of 18 untouchables with the remaining being open to trade (which is not to say trading all of the rest).

My untouchables:
Adam Saad
Connor McKenna
Dylan Shiel
Jake Stringer
Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti
Darcy Parish
Aaron Francis
Zach Merrett
Andrew McGrath
Joe Daniher
Devon Smith
Mason Redman
Sam Draper
Marty Gleeson
Jordan Ridley
Brandon Zerk-Thatcher
Cale Hooker
Dylan Clarke

There are then positions that perhaps would mean we can’t move them on, TBC (cos we’re short on ruckmen) - just as an example.

Needs (via draft): Key defender, key forward, inside midfielder, outside midfielder (with elite disposal).
Needs (via trade): Big bodied inside midfielder, backup ruckman.

I would only draft or trade in players with genuinely elite disposal.
 

ant555

The Oracle
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They’d don’t just play them once they’re good sides - but what about before they became good sides?
The cream players play. Using the Hawks as an example when they where not so good. Hodge was an early pick and played 15 games. Sam Mitchell played 9 games in his first year. Roughead 16 games. Buddy 20 games but we are talking about star players who where top 10 picks baring Mitchell. Lewis played 20 games as well I think. If you look at the next pick after the big guns in 2005 you have Tom Murphy and he took 3 years to play more than 10 games in a season. Not super star so took longer to break into the side.
We have given young players a go, even when their form has not been great in the case of Begley. Our recent top 10 picks have all played a lot of footy in the first few seasons other than Francis because of injury and personal issues and now he is up and running he has played plenty of senior footy this year.
 

ant555

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We just can't have Merrett, Shiel, McGrath and Parish supporting Heppell next year. Way too undersized, both in weight and height.

There should be at least two more big bodied inside mids to support Heppell so that Merrett and Shiel can be at their damaging best. Merrett isn't suited to bash and crash. We take away our best kick to play him in a role that doesn't give him time and space, which is counterproductive.

Ollie Wines would be perfect. Mitch Hibberd the other one. D. Clarke would also give us much needed depth.
But of course we want Jack Martin, exactly the player we don't need.
Would not say we do not need Jack Martin. You never turn away good players. The issue is he is second in the Que in the type of midfielders we need. It is easy to say Wines is perfect but Wines has only been in the speculative talk. Martin has requested a trade. I do not think he is coming to us anyway as the price tag will be too high as far as his contract goes.
 

Sockeye

Senior List
Aug 13, 2014
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We just can't have Merrett, Shiel, McGrath and Parish supporting Heppell next year. Way too undersized, both in weight and height.

There should be at least two more big bodied inside mids to support Heppell so that Merrett and Shiel can be at their damaging best. Merrett isn't suited to bash and crash. We take away our best kick to play him in a role that doesn't give him time and space, which is counterproductive.

Ollie Wines would be perfect. Mitch Hibberd the other one. D. Clarke would also give us much needed depth.
But of course we want Jack Martin, exactly the player we don't need.
Totally agree. Midfield with Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel and Smith is just too small. Individually they are all very good players but as a collective, too small, not strong enough at the contest, easily out marked. We need to go hard for one or both of the Crouch brothers so Merrett and McGrath can play on the wings and Smith as a pressure forward. There is upside to both Parish and Shiel as mids in 2020.
 

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