List Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

JayJ20

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Aug 28, 2016
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Would not say we do not need Jack Martin. You never turn away good players. The issue is he is second in the Que in the type of midfielders we need. It is easy to say Wines is perfect but Wines has only been in the speculative talk. Martin has requested a trade. I do not think he is coming to us anyway as the price tag will be too high as far as his contract goes.
Sorry, I mean the player that won't address our biggest need. Structurally, he won't release someone like Merrett. If he came cheap, then sure. Replacing him with say Langford would be pretty good. GC won't ever give him away for a suitable price and Martin won't want anything less than 600K.

We should at least do everything we can to get Ollie Wines. This is probably the cheapest we'll ever get a proven quality inside mid that'll have an immediate impact on our side. I'd be willing to give some quality to Port in return. We can be too conservative sometimes.
 

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vass44

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Sep 17, 2016
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It depends on how big of a list change we want to make. I could only find a list of 18 untouchables with the remaining being open to trade (which is not to say trading all of the rest).

My untouchables:
Adam Saad
Connor McKenna
Dylan Shiel
Jake Stringer
Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti
Darcy Parish
Aaron Francis
Zach Merrett
Andrew McGrath
Joe Daniher
Devon Smith
Mason Redman
Sam Draper
Marty Gleeson
Jordan Ridley
Brandon Zerk-Thatcher
Cale Hooker
Dylan Clarke

There are then positions that perhaps would mean we can’t move them on, TBC (cos we’re short on ruckmen) - just as an example.

Needs (via draft): Key defender, key forward, inside midfielder, outside midfielder (with elite disposal).
Needs (via trade): Big bodied inside midfielder, backup ruckman.

I would only draft or trade in players with genuinely elite disposal.
I agree with most of this - but only players I’d have as untouchable would be:-

Zerrett
Tippa
Hurley
McKenna
Stringer
Shiel
Redman
Daniher
McGrath
Smith
Saad
Heppell
Francis
Parish
Draper

Anyone outside of that I’d be willing to trade and would even trade some of the above if the price is right


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Unfazed

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Oct 6, 2015
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Jungle drums re Daniher beating louder with many suggesting it's the club shopping him. My question is - why? We need a key forward and I can't see anyone available we would be so desperate for that we would trade Joe. Unless it's Grundy but we would need a lot more currency and Pies wont let him go anyway. So why consider trading Joey when he's got low currency?
 

The Donners

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Jungle drums re Daniher beating louder with many suggesting it's the club shopping him. My question is - why? We need a key forward and I can't see anyone available we would be so desperate for that we would trade Joe. Unless it's Grundy but we would need a lot more currency and Pies wont let him go anyway. So why consider trading Joey when he's got low currency?
He must be bunged up pretty bad for them to consider it in my opinion. He’s a an X factor who I believe has crowd/membership pull.

You’d want pretty much a like for like replacement. I’d be happy with Ben King as most on here would be but we’ve already seen what Daniher is capable of and using King for example, we really haven’t.
 

vast

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Jungle drums re Daniher beating louder with many suggesting it's the club shopping him. My question is - why? We need a key forward and I can't see anyone available we would be so desperate for that we would trade Joe. Unless it's Grundy but we would need a lot more currency and Pies wont let him go anyway. So why consider trading Joey when he's got low currency?
If we lose Daniher we may as well put in a massive offer to Grundy because a few weeks ago on SEN they said pies are offering 3 years and he wants 7. Happily would offer him 7 years even 8 as that is what it would take to get him across though even then I doubt he leaves.
 

Bunk Moreland

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I just keep comparing to 2017... because it's two years on and we've finished in basically the same position.

I've left out players who either didn't or haven't played a game for us.

Departures: Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking, Colyer, Howlett, Bird, Leuenberger, Green, J Merrett

Arrivals: Smith, Stringer, Shiel, Saad, Guelfi, Z Clarke, Ham, Zerk-Thatcher, Jok

So we've certainly added to the list in some areas.

But you look at the list of departures and it would appear experience and leadership are an issue. Look at the names... Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking.

Now, I know some of those blokes were cooked on-field and in their last season, but leadership goes a lot further than that. It's not just on match-day but even when it is, it's not just kicks and handballs.. it's the organisation of players and everything else. It's consistent effort. It's calming the troops when the opposition get a run-on and getting them to focus on the basics and stop the momentum. It's doing the right thing every single time at training and cracking those who don't.

I know Lloyd has been very critical of our "leadership" group and he's possibly not far off the mark.

The guys who came in... I think Smith is a leader. Other than that, I'm really not sure. I think Stringer has shown signs but he's also not very vocal it would appear.

Who else is a leader on our list?

I've got no doubt about Heppell and Hooker.

Merrett? Shiel? Hurley? Daniher? Fantasia? I'm not convinced these guys are natural leaders. That's not really a criticism by the way, it's' just who they are I think. Can they have a huge influence on what their teammates do?

I'd look in hindsight and say it was a mistake to retire Goddard when he wanted to go on.

And then... do we need leadership from outside? Look at what Kelly did for us here, and what Hodge has done at the Lions.

Outside the box thinking: do we look to bring in a leader or two?
 

The Donners

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I just keep comparing to 2017... because it's two years on and we've finished in basically the same position.

I've left out players who either didn't or haven't played a game for us.

Departures: Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking, Colyer, Howlett, Bird, Leuenberger, Green, J Merrett

Arrivals: Smith, Stringer, Shiel, Saad, Guelfi, Z Clarke, Ham, Zerk-Thatcher, Jok

So we've certainly added to the list in some areas.

But you look at the list of departures and it would appear experience and leadership are an issue. Look at the names... Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking.

Now, I know some of those blokes were cooked on-field and in their last season, but leadership goes a lot further than that. It's not just on match-day but even when it is, it's not just kicks and handballs.. it's the organisation of players and everything else. It's consistent effort. It's calming the troops when the opposition get a run-on and getting them to focus on the basics and stop the momentum. It's doing the right thing every single time at training and cracking those who don't.

I know Lloyd has been very critical of our "leadership" group and he's possibly not far off the mark.

The guys who came in... I think Smith is a leader. Other than that, I'm really not sure. I think Stringer has shown signs but he's also not very vocal it would appear.

Who else is a leader on our list?

I've got no doubt about Heppell and Hooker.

Merrett? Shiel? Hurley? Daniher? Fantasia? I'm not convinced these guys are natural leaders. That's not really a criticism by the way, it's' just who they are I think. Can they have a huge influence on what their teammates do?

I'd look in hindsight and say it was a mistake to retire Goddard when he wanted to go on.

And then... do we need leadership from outside? Look at what Kelly did for us here, and what Hodge has done at the Lions.

Outside the box thinking: do we look to bring in a leader or two?
I definitely think we could bring in a leader or 2. Ollie Wines would be a good start.
 

F_therest

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Oct 3, 2013
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He must be bunged up pretty bad for them to consider it in my opinion. He’s a an X factor who I believe has crowd/membership pull.

You’d want pretty much a like for like replacement. I’d be happy with Ben King as most on here would be but we’ve already seen what Daniher is capable of and using King for example, we really haven’t.
Probably the last opportunity to cash in big with him, where other clubs like Sydney still think he's young enough and they can 'fix' his injury issues.

Hang onto him beyond this year and if he has another year where he misses most games, 3 years in a row and 26 yo, his trade currency would become relatively low.

Agree a key forward like Ben King would be ideal as your other tall forwards are more 2nd/3rd tall types. A few cheaper options could be attempted like Wright, Taberner, Bruce etc.

Port are talking tough on Wines but that could very well just be posturing to maximise any trade...Daniher assets could be used to get him or B Crouch which would really help your other midfielders. Or cheaper option would be Powell-Pepper, Ellis-Yolman etc

The type of players i think most agree Essendon need are out there, Dodorio just needs to identify them and get to work. And no that does not mean chasing Martin...
 

BrunoV

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May 5, 2009
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Would not say we do not need Jack Martin. You never turn away good players. The issue is he is second in the Que in the type of midfielders we need. It is easy to say Wines is perfect but Wines has only been in the speculative talk. Martin has requested a trade. I do not think he is coming to us anyway as the price tag will be too high as far as his contract goes.

You know there is a salary cap, right?

You absolutely turn down good players unless their value in the cap reflects a need.

What do we need Martin for that Ham cant do next year at 1/3 of the price with the added benefit of retaining a good pick.
 

Bjchan13

Team Captain
Jul 23, 2018
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I just keep comparing to 2017... because it's two years on and we've finished in basically the same position.

I've left out players who either didn't or haven't played a game for us.

Departures: Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking, Colyer, Howlett, Bird, Leuenberger, Green, J Merrett

Arrivals: Smith, Stringer, Shiel, Saad, Guelfi, Z Clarke, Ham, Zerk-Thatcher, Jok

So we've certainly added to the list in some areas.

But you look at the list of departures and it would appear experience and leadership are an issue. Look at the names... Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking.

Now, I know some of those blokes were cooked on-field and in their last season, but leadership goes a lot further than that. It's not just on match-day but even when it is, it's not just kicks and handballs.. it's the organisation of players and everything else. It's consistent effort. It's calming the troops when the opposition get a run-on and getting them to focus on the basics and stop the momentum. It's doing the right thing every single time at training and cracking those who don't.

I know Lloyd has been very critical of our "leadership" group and he's possibly not far off the mark.

The guys who came in... I think Smith is a leader. Other than that, I'm really not sure. I think Stringer has shown signs but he's also not very vocal it would appear.

Who else is a leader on our list?

I've got no doubt about Heppell and Hooker.

Merrett? Shiel? Hurley? Daniher? Fantasia? I'm not convinced these guys are natural leaders. That's not really a criticism by the way, it's' just who they are I think. Can they have a huge influence on what their teammates do?

I'd look in hindsight and say it was a mistake to retire Goddard when he wanted to go on.

And then... do we need leadership from outside? Look at what Kelly did for us here, and what Hodge has done at the Lions.

Outside the box thinking: do we look to bring in a leader or two?
We definitely got the leadership group wrong this year thats for sure, but we are a young rebuilding side. Our only 150gamers on the entire list are Hooker, Hurley, Heppell, Zaharakis and Shiel. The reigning premiers had 13 on the field on Thursday. The next tier in line for leadership positions for us over 100 games could come from Smith, Daniher, Merrett or Stringer. I feel we need to get another 50 games into Francis, McGrath, Parish, Redman, Ridley, Clarke and Begley as quick as we can and start drafting for needs rather than best available. As for adding a leader in the meantime id go for a 28 year old goddard again but not sure there is a whole lot out there. Travis Boak had a great year and could probably help us in that regard.
 

rusman

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Sep 12, 2007
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You know there is a salary cap, right?

You absolutely turn down good players unless their value in the cap reflects a need.

What do we need Martin for that Ham cant do next year at 1/3 of the price with the added benefit of retaining a good pick.
You know there’s a soft cap right? 95%

I’d say Ant555 is right that as a general rule you don’t turn away good players.

Comparing ham to Martin next year is just crazy talk so let’s not get into that.
 

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ant555

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You know there is a salary cap, right?

You absolutely turn down good players unless their value in the cap reflects a need.

What do we need Martin for that Ham cant do next year at 1/3 of the price with the added benefit of retaining a good pick.
Ham is as good as Martin ?

Also read the last line Bruno. I did say I doubt he comes to us because of his asking price.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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Any money that would go to Jack Martin should go resigning Francis this year, and McGrath, Heppell and Saad next year
Should just put a moratorium on big trades until the coaching situation post 2020 becomes clear and we have an indication of what sort of game the club is going to play. Until then, don't buy groceries no campaigner will cook with.
 

rusman

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Sep 12, 2007
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There should be no cap floor. It doesn’t make sense.

Having no cap floor allows proper list management. I mean how can there be 5% salary difference between Collingwood and goldcoast. It should be 70% haha.

Imagine doing a fantasy draft of hawks at there peak vs Melbourne back in 2013. You’d get very late before a dee was selected.
 

citizen-erased

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Nuclear trade period

Daniher + 2020 2nd rd to Swans for Parker & Papley
Raz to Port for Wines
Hurley to GWS for Tomlinson & Hill
Zaka to Dees for 2nd rounder
Dons and GWS 2nd rounders to GCS for Martin
Ryder/Goldstein/Sauce as FA

Redman Zerk Francis
McKenna Tomlinson Saad
Merrett Wines Smith
Martin McKernan Tippa
Papley Hooker Stringer
FA Ruck Parker Shiel
Heppell McGrath Parish Hill
E: TBC Ridley Langford Clarke

Bold - new
italic - additions for 2020 from the list

this seems like a lot to fix the imbalance in our 22.
 

BrunoV

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Ham is as good as Martin ?

Also read the last line Bruno. I did say I doubt he comes to us because of his asking price.

You know football better than reaching the conclusion that I was saying Ham is as good as Martin or that he even needs to be as good as Martin to perform a "role" that is just as valuable to the side.

Give the boy a pre-season and with his work rate and natural endurance he will run circles around Martin, period.

He's not going to play the occasions game breaking performance but he's good for 20 possessions a game burning up and down the wing which is what we need (much more than the occasional game breaking performance, rest of the time flaky, lazy bulls**t).
 

BrunoV

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You know there’s a soft cap right? 95%

I’d say Ant555 is right that as a general rule you don’t turn away good players.

Comparing ham to Martin next year is just crazy talk so let’s not get into that.

Soft cap? Aren't we shedding players to fit Martin in?
 

ghostdog

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Oct 18, 2008
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I just keep comparing to 2017... because it's two years on and we've finished in basically the same position.

I've left out players who either didn't or haven't played a game for us.

Departures: Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking, Colyer, Howlett, Bird, Leuenberger, Green, J Merrett

Arrivals: Smith, Stringer, Shiel, Saad, Guelfi, Z Clarke, Ham, Zerk-Thatcher, Jok

So we've certainly added to the list in some areas.

But you look at the list of departures and it would appear experience and leadership are an issue. Look at the names... Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking.

Now, I know some of those blokes were cooked on-field and in their last season, but leadership goes a lot further than that. It's not just on match-day but even when it is, it's not just kicks and handballs.. it's the organisation of players and everything else. It's consistent effort. It's calming the troops when the opposition get a run-on and getting them to focus on the basics and stop the momentum. It's doing the right thing every single time at training and cracking those who don't.

I know Lloyd has been very critical of our "leadership" group and he's possibly not far off the mark.

The guys who came in... I think Smith is a leader. Other than that, I'm really not sure. I think Stringer has shown signs but he's also not very vocal it would appear.

Who else is a leader on our list?

I've got no doubt about Heppell and Hooker.

Merrett? Shiel? Hurley? Daniher? Fantasia? I'm not convinced these guys are natural leaders. That's not really a criticism by the way, it's' just who they are I think. Can they have a huge influence on what their teammates do?

I'd look in hindsight and say it was a mistake to retire Goddard when he wanted to go on.

And then... do we need leadership from outside? Look at what Kelly did for us here, and what Hodge has done at the Lions.

Outside the box thinking: do we look to bring in a leader or two?
Yes, we do. Another reason Wines should be in the conversation.
 

rusman

Club Legend
Sep 12, 2007
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Soft cap? Aren't we shedding players to fit Martin in?
Are we? I haven’t heard that’s the case other then by people with as much knowledge as me (nfi). Maybe we are hawks good at list management.

Also depends who we give up and what we get back.

To pass up on talented players as a starting point is never a good strategy. Particularly when you have to pay 95%.
 

Darealrath

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There should be no cap floor. It doesn’t make sense.

Having no cap floor allows proper list management. I mean how can there be 5% salary difference between Collingwood and goldcoast. It should be 70% haha.

Imagine doing a fantasy draft of hawks at there peak vs Melbourne back in 2013. You’d get very late before a dee was selected.
Agree but the AFLPA would do all they can to block.

FWIW I remember hearing that part of the point of the floor was to stop say a Fitzroy remaining solvent by paying peanuts to players who wanted to keep the club afloat.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Yes, we do. Another reason Wines should be in the conversation.
We need tough mids who are leaders from successful cultures. Josh Kennedy, Luke Parker... these types. Somebody like that sounds silly but it’s really exactly what we’re missing. Would much rather see us trying to shake someone like that loose with a big money 3-year deal than chase the likes of Jack Martin.
 

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