List Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

Seb78

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Aug 27, 2008
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Would we be a chance of getting Cooper Stephens with pick 29? Anyone reckon he will last till that pick? 188cm 83kg inside mid. I know he's coming off a fractured lower leg but was highly touted before his injury.
 

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ghostdog

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Q



Clumsy wording but surely the context speaks for itself. Or do I have to assume that we forget every know fact about Martin (e.g. rocking up unfit, being dropped from the side for the last 3 rounds) and common sense generally (e.g. hard working disciplined players can be more important than players with star potential; and another e.g. players who get dropped for games from a side that finished last but are still considered good are unlikely to be disciplined work horses) for every new post?
This is doing my head in.
I agree with you that if Ham works hard he could be anything.
You'd also have to consider though, that there are at least a half a dozen clubs whose culture and demands on professionalism could turn Martin into anything.
Ours is not in that half dozen. That is certain. What both Ham and Martin could be is not certain.
 

BrunoV

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This is doing my head in.
I agree with you that if Ham works hard he could be anything.
You'd also have to consider though, that there are at least a half a dozen clubs whose culture and demands on professionalism could turn Martin into anything.
Ours is not in that half dozen. That is certain. What both Ham and Martin could be is not certain.

Ham runs 15km a game, has clear running power and has shown excellent foot skills, not to mention obvious acumen on the wing at VFL level (which is a rare thing).

Any half competent coaching set up turns that into a solid AFL contributor in a position in which their side is completely deficient.

Martin is a lazy flanker who for his $600k a year might turn it on for a few quarters at the same time at which we are still struggling for two way run in the middle and physicality in the midfield without the cap space to do anything about it.

I was having a discussion with ant555 who is big on role players and i was testing whether a role player would be more valuable generally and particularly in a scenario in which we fill our cap with another good player who doesnt address a "need".

It's interesting because you've said that we wouldn't be likely to turn Martin into the player Scott Clayton thought he would be.
 

Milanista28

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It's time to give Laverde a full pre season with the mids, he was drafted to be a midfielder and injuries haven't allowed that but surely we finally pull the trigger and do it?
 

Yoda_

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With the recruitment of Noah Gown last year as a key forward, Id been a big advocate of drafting in another key forward to develop alongside him. With the guys already on our list, not sure it is entirely feasable for list balance to do so.

Have always thought with Francis and BZT as young key defenders we'd be alright in the back 6 but perhaps another KPD shouldnt be completely out of the question. Ideally a key fwd/ruck under 23 and a KPD also under 23 should be looked at this off season.
 

ghostdog

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Ham runs 15km a game, has clear running power and has shown excellent foot skills, not to mention obvious acumen on the wing at VFL level (which is a rare thing).

Any half competent coaching set up turns that into a solid AFL contributor in a position in which their side is completely deficient.

Martin is a lazy flanker who for his $600k a year might turn it on for a few quarters at the same time at which we are still struggling for two way run in the middle and physicality in the midfield without the cap space to do anything about it.

I was having a discussion with ant555 who is big on role players and i was testing whether a role player would be more valuable generally and particularly in a scenario in which we fill our cap with another good player who doesnt address a "need".

It's interesting because you've said that we wouldn't be likely to turn Martin into the player Scott Clayton thought he would be.
As we are currently, I don't think the evidence is there to confidently say we have the culture to maximise Ham's potential (although the development of Walla, Redman and Parish this year bodes well). I agree, Martin isn't a need and would waste cap space as well.
 

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citizen-erased

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So what does a post-Daniher forward line look like and who should we target?
With what we have

Raz Hooker Stringer
Tippa McKernan ???

Zerk/Ridley into the backline for Hooker, who would eventually be succeeded by Stewart or Gown or another draftee/trade in

?? would be any of Langford, Snelling, Ham or a resting mid.

I like Brander. Kid is a gun and a Vic kid to boot.
Ben Miller is another who is mobile and a lovely kick. And behind some guns at Richmond.
And there's Todd Marshall & Billy Frampton @ Port.
 

BrunoV

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As we are currently, I don't think the evidence is there to confidently say we have the culture to maximise Ham's potential (although the development of Walla, Redman and Parish this year bodes well). I agree, Martin isn't a need and would waste cap space as well.
I dont know that the culture will be a problems for Ham.

Work rate, professionalism to be the aerobic animal he is with the skill he has, having been overlooked for a draft, means that he's probably a self driven kid and late bloomer.

It's the flake who is going to need the culture. It's hard to see the culture changing much when the only reason we would be signing him is because of this perception he is a gun.
 

Seb78

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Will Francis ever be capable of taking the second tall? I'm unsure
I've wondered this as well. At 192cm he's not exactly a monster but it will depend on the opponent he's on I guess. Ambrose seems to play that stopping role to a tee. Reckon between BZT and Francis we have a solid base to work around. Hopefully by then we have a midfield capable of defending and we won't have to rely on the back 6 so much anyways.
 

ghostdog

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I dont know that the culture will be a problems for Ham.

Work rate, professionalism to be the aerobic animal he is with the skill he has, having been overlooked for a draft, means that he's probably a self driven kid and late bloomer.

It's the flake who is going to need the culture. It's hard to see the culture changing much when the only reason we would be signing him is because of this perception he is a gun.
I hope you're right because I really liked what I saw of Ham v. Pies. To run as hard as he did and suddenly appear in the goalsquare all alone was fantastic.

On flaky players needing culture, not sure Carlton would be a sound choice for JM. Luke Beveridge would have turned him into a machine.
 

BrunoV

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I hope you're right because I really liked what I saw of Ham v. Pies. To run as hard as he did and suddenly appear in the goalsquare all alone was fantastic.

On flaky players needing culture, not sure Carlton would be a sound choice for JM. Luke Beveridge would have turned him into a machine.

Carlton can take the good with the bad because they're adding the cream to a list that looks particularly well balanced (bear in mind I have a very high opinion of Jack Silvagni as an inside mid).
 

Yoda_

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I dont know that the culture will be a problems for Ham.

Work rate, professionalism to be the aerobic animal he is with the skill he has, having been overlooked for a draft, means that he's probably a self driven kid and late bloomer.

It's the flake who is going to need the culture. It's hard to see the culture changing much when the only reason we would be signing him is because of this perception he is a gun.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Jack Martin and he would be a good addition to our group. Yeah, he may not give the return on the outlay (which is why I don’t want to sign him) but he would remove a guy like Laverde, Begley, Snelling even Ham as a forward.

Getting Martin improves our bottom line. For the outlay, that’s a different story


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ghostdog

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Carlton can take the good with the bad because they're adding the cream to a list that looks particularly well balanced (bear in mind I have a very high opinion of Jack Silvagni as an inside mid).
You say that as though you'd be happy to trade Silvagni in. Weird situation for Sos and Blues fans if it ever eventuated.
 

ghostdog

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I’ve been thinking a lot about Jack Martin and he would be a good addition to our group. Yeah, he may not give the return on the outlay (which is why I don’t want to sign him) but he would remove a guy like Laverde, Begley, Snelling even Ham as a forward.

Getting Martin improves our bottom line. For the outlay, that’s a different story


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I reckon he would be great if;
a) we didn't have other priorities
b) he wasn't overpriced

I'll still be filthy if he goes to Carlton and plays better though.
 

Yoda_

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I reckon he would be great if;
a) we didn't have other priorities
b) he wasn't overpriced

I'll still be filthy if he goes to Carlton and plays better though.
Im probably underselling point a) a lot here too. We’ve got more pressing needs.

If we could grab a CEY or Constable cheaply then adding Jack would be ok


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citizen-erased

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Yeah I'd still be prioritising a key forward and ruckman. After that he'd be okay.
i think all 3 are equal needs

1) a ruck to get us service and compete around the ground
2) an extractor/accumulator to feed the likes of Shiel, Merrett, etc
3) a forward in the event Joey leaves

Goldstein/Ryder/Jacobs
SPP/Drew/Venables
Brander/Marshall/Fogarty
 

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