Strategy Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

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Zach Package

Kyle Langfourd
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It's a problem that has multiple layers.

The starting point is recruitment. The prime example for me is selecting McGrath to turn him in to Taranto. One is a specialist inside pig with an elite engine the other was primarily a half back/defender who could play in the middle with amazing athleticism. 5 years in, Taranto has already been a prime mover in a midfield that played in a GF - Coniglio and Ward missed significant parts of 2019. Taranto was second only to Kelly among the mids for average disposals that year and he played all 26 games - if that means one thing it means he was at the top of the midfield rotation (as a third year player).

Dodoro is Scott Clayton, forever chasing the flashier player at the expense of the meat and potatoes simplicity that most decent midfields are built on.

Second major problem is "accepting we have a problem". There is virtually no prospect that Dodoro will give up on a combination of Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Caldwell and Shiel and he appears to have almost complete control in this regard. If that's the case, where does the midfield time come from? Adding 3 midfielders to the team means moving on 2 of these players. That leaves us with a core of 5 to which we'd want to add Perkins. Midfields do not really go deeper than that in any meaningful sense - the depth is really a matter for the balance of a healthy list. The rest of the rotations should be a Tippa or a Stringer for a few minutes to try to steal or break the ball out of the middle.

It's scary that we get 2 injuries to midfielders and the remaining genuine midfield prospect on the list is a guy whose kicking is so bad we're playing him as a pressure forward (i.e. Clarke). That gets us to the boring old argument of the complete lack of respect paid to the midfield in recruiting, list management and day to day coaching (which has churned through all the options despite the consistent incompetence of our midfield and without really ever looking at the alternatives).

Seriously, how the fu** did we take Hibberd, a 192cm, 95kg inside midfielder who would probably be 6:25ish over 2km, play him on ball for 2 of his 20 quarters and then delist him to carry on with, and I don't take any pleasure in saying this, a nothing romance story like Lachlan Johnson? Ned Cahill, a slow small forward who at a small 178cm probably looks best suited to a midfield role (it sure as hell doesn't look like it will be half back)?

Our first choice midfield, like I said somewhere else comprises 2 x AAs (the oldest of which is 28), 1 x 100 game 6th year pick 5 and 1 x 80 game 5th year pick 1 and it has been embarrassed for the last 20 games.
Not sure how I missed this but I do agree with the primary sentiment that we haven’t acknowledged that there is a balance issue that needs rectifying.

I’m still disappointed in the Hibberd thing but I don’t see it as related to anything other than the club’s crook view that he wasn’t good enough, that the role is not important enough or a mixture of the two. He could have had Gleeson’s spot on the rookie list without it impacting Johnson (who was picked not only because we wanted him, but so we could immediately place him on the inactive list and take another selection, which I actually thought was very clever) and Cahill who was picked because Fantasia was doing the hokey pokey. Both need to get reps in as small forwards before we can make any kind of judgement.

I’m probably in the minority in not thinking we need to trade out someone established because the mix is so toxic, it’s just missing a bruiser or two.

In the same way that we’ve seemingly gone tall at every available opportunity of late we now need to go really heavy on mids and hopefully nail a couple, not something I think Dodoro is capable of doing.
 
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Yoda_

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Not sure how I missed this but I do agree with the primary sentiment that we haven’t acknowledged that there is a balance issue that needs rectifying.

I’m still disappointed in the Hibberd thing but I don’t see it as related to anything other than the club’s crook view that he wasn’t good enough, he could have had Gleeson’s spot on the rookie list without it impacting Johnson (who was picked not only because we wanted him, but so we could immediately place him on the inactive list and take another selection, which I actually thought was very clever) and Cahill who was picked because Fantasia was doing the hokey pokey. Both need to get reps in as small forwards before we can make any kind of judgement.

I’m probably in the minority in not thinking we need to trade out someone established because the mix is so toxic, it’s just missing a bruiser or two.

In the same way that we’ve seemingly gone tall at every available opportunity of late we now need to go really heavy on mids and hopefully nail a couple, not something I think Dodoro is capable of doing.
What bothers me is one of the coaches favourites needs to not be a starter and replaced by a point of difference for us to improve imho.

Imagine the outrage of McGrath was moved back permanently despite having a seamless transition into the midfield group? Darcy Parish playing limited midfield minutes despite once again showing his wares on the weekend? Imagine spending two firsts (on Dylan Shiel) and him seemingly not being good enough and becoming a role player?

I was one of the first who suggested it and my sentiments are slowly being echoed but I’d cut my losses with Shiel. We get a top 20 pick for him you take it and run.

As for the list make up like you said, it’s as much about the willingness of the coaches to play players in there preferred positions as it is about the people bringing in those said players. No wonder we are and have been a basket case. If you were new to our list management you’d almost think those two (coaches & list management) groups weren’t working together .


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ghostdog

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Not sure how I missed this but I do agree with the primary sentiment that we haven’t acknowledged that there is a balance issue that needs rectifying.

I’m still disappointed in the Hibberd thing but I don’t see it as related to anything other than the club’s crook view that he wasn’t good enough, he could have had Gleeson’s spot on the rookie list without it impacting Johnson (who was picked not only because we wanted him, but so we could immediately place him on the inactive list and take another selection, which I actually thought was very clever) and Cahill who was picked because Fantasia was doing the hokey pokey. Both need to get reps in as small forwards before we can make any kind of judgement.

I’m probably in the minority in not thinking we need to trade out someone established because the mix is so toxic, it’s just missing a bruiser or two.

In the same way that we’ve seemingly gone tall at every available opportunity of late we now need to go really heavy on mids and hopefully nail a couple, not something I think Dodoro is capable of doing.
Our treatment of Hibberd was amateur hour. We're about to take on Kennedy and Parker. Hibberd available could have meant Stringer can stay in the f50.
 

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Zach Package

Kyle Langfourd
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What bothers me is one of the coaches favourites needs to not be a starter and replaced by a point of difference for us to improve imho.

Imagine the outrage of McGrath was moved back permanently despite having a seamless transition into the midfield group? Darcy Parish playing limited midfield minutes despite once again showing his wares on the weekend? Imagine spending two firsts (on Dylan Shiel) and him seemingly not being good enough and becoming a role player?

I was one of the first who suggested it and my sentiments are slowly being echoed but I’d cut my losses with Shiel. We get a top 20 pick for him you take it and run.

As for the list make up like you said, it’s as much about the willingness of the coaches to play players in there preferred positions as it is about the people bringing in those said players. No wonder we are and have been a basket case. If you were new to our list management you’d almost think those two (coaches & list management) groups weren’t working together .


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I mean, given turnover of coaches and plans and players you’d struggle to know what to do if you’re the list management team to be honest.

The fact that we’re even discussing trading Shiel is mind boggling to me, particularly for ‘we can’t squeeze him in’ reasons given basically everyone plays 8 or 9 or 10 midfielders at once these days. Probably an indication that we don’t really have our heads around what it takes to be really competitive.

I’d also imagine Shiel would relish the new rules, the space and having less opposition attention and someone with his skill set is going to prove very important and decidedly not something you’d give away for peanuts in a drunken fit of stupidity.
 

fairbump_playon

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Our treatment of Hibberd was amateur hour. We're about to take on Kennedy and Parker. Hibberd available could have meant Stringer can stay in the f50.
There is no doubt he never got a fair run. But it’s also no certainty he was good enough. He played a role that we need and lack but you have to be a brilliant one touch player to make it your own. Played out of position in a few games he fumbled a lot and looked off the pace.

Don’t torture yourself by being sure he was a solution to the Kennedy problem. Maybe he was - but remember the club saw him on the training track enough to have insight into his ceiling that we maybe don’t.
 

ghostdog

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There is no doubt he never got a fair run. But it’s also no certainty he was good enough. He played a role that we need and lack but you have to be a brilliant one touch player to make it your own. Played out of position in a few games he fumbled a lot and looked off the pace.

Don’t torture yourself by being sure he was a solution to the Kennedy problem. Maybe he was - but remember the club saw him on the training track enough to have insight into his ceiling that we maybe don’t.
We also didn't see enough of him to know that he definitely wasn't good enough. Surely we do know, though, that in a season where we obviously were not going to be contenders even for a finals spot, that we should have tried him out. Shiel's time out suspended could have been a good opportunity to do that. In 2019 he averaged 24 disposals so he can clearly find the ball. He made the VFL team of the year. We recruited the inside type that we needed and then gave him minimal opportunities, playing him out of position when we finally did play him.
I'm not torturing myself by any stretch. Let's be realistic though; we still have Cutler on the list in a position where we have multiple other players, yet we delisted the type of player we need. Where I stand, that looks like mismanagement.
 

fairbump_playon

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We also didn't see enough of him to know that he definitely wasn't good enough. Surely we do know, though, that in a season where we obviously were not going to be contenders even for a finals spot, that we should have tried him out. Shiel's time out suspended could have been a good opportunity to do that. In 2019 he averaged 24 disposals so he can clearly find the ball. He made the VFL team of the year. We recruited the inside type that we needed and then gave him minimal opportunities, playing him out of position when we finally did play him.
I'm not torturing myself by any stretch. Let's be realistic though; we still have Cutler on the list in a position where we have multiple other players, yet we delisted the type of player we need. Where I stand, that looks like mismanagement.
Fair points Ghostdog, fair points.

I agree with everything you said regarding him being mismanaged and not given a decent chance to show what he has. On the bit that was exposed I didn’t think he would make it. But I concede not much was exposed!
 

Nuggs Bunny

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We also didn't see enough of him to know that he definitely wasn't good enough. Surely we do know, though, that in a season where we obviously were not going to be contenders even for a finals spot, that we should have tried him out. Shiel's time out suspended could have been a good opportunity to do that. In 2019 he averaged 24 disposals so he can clearly find the ball. He made the VFL team of the year. We recruited the inside type that we needed and then gave him minimal opportunities, playing him out of position when we finally did play him.
I'm not torturing myself by any stretch. Let's be realistic though; we still have Cutler on the list in a position where we have multiple other players, yet we delisted the type of player we need. Where I stand, that looks like mismanagement.
I don't know, even though Cutler has been disappointing to say the least, we really didn't have any tall, marking wingers at the time and that acquisition was one of the few where we've actually gone out to get a player to fill a hole on our list. When we took Cutler for chips I thought that was one of Dodo's smarter moves, I swear he was actually decent with the Lions.
 

ant555

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I don't know, even though Cutler has been disappointing to say the least, we really didn't have any tall, marking wingers at the time and that acquisition was one of the few where we've actually gone out to get a player to fill a hole on our list. When we took Cutler for chips I thought that was one of Dodo's smarter moves, I swear he was actually decent with the Lions.
Agree on Cutler, he was a decent player at the Lions. Has been a flop for us but his style of marking winger was a spot on our list we needed to fill. Has not worked out but it did show they looked at filling a need.
 

ant555

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What bothers me is one of the coaches favourites needs to not be a starter and replaced by a point of difference for us to improve imho.

Imagine the outrage of McGrath was moved back permanently despite having a seamless transition into the midfield group? Darcy Parish playing limited midfield minutes despite once again showing his wares on the weekend? Imagine spending two firsts (on Dylan Shiel) and him seemingly not being good enough and becoming a role player?

I was one of the first who suggested it and my sentiments are slowly being echoed but I’d cut my losses with Shiel. We get a top 20 pick for him you take it and run.

As for the list make up like you said, it’s as much about the willingness of the coaches to play players in there preferred positions as it is about the people bringing in those said players. No wonder we are and have been a basket case. If you were new to our list management you’d almost think those two (coaches & list management) groups weren’t working together .


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My suggestion to you is go back and look how good Shiel was in 2019. If anything it is McGrath that should move to a wing or flank. He is the "converted" midfielder that would be just as good on a wing or haf forward.
The numbers do not lie. Shield has been top 10 in the comp for center clearances for a few years including last year when he was average. It is the area of the game he is rated elite.
Shield also played forward in patches of the Hawks game. 20 possessions and two goals and everyone is on his case.
We lack midfield depth and you are saying cut the elite center clearance player on our list ?
Play Parish in the middle for sure, which they have in all three games this year. But let's not just move on an elite clearance player. What we actuality need is a big bodied blocker so Parish and Shiel can be protected more. Stringer does it well but a permanent blocker for Shiel , Merret and Parish would be nice.
 

ghostdog

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I don't know, even though Cutler has been disappointing to say the least, we really didn't have any tall, marking wingers at the time and that acquisition was one of the few where we've actually gone out to get a player to fill a hole on our list. When we took Cutler for chips I thought that was one of Dodo's smarter moves, I swear he was actually decent with the Lions.
I never liked it, but we did need talls. That said, Langford could have been used on a wing more.
 

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ghostdog

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My suggestion to you is go back and look how good Shiel was in 2019. If anything it is McGrath that should move to a wing or flank. He is the "converted" midfielder that would be just as good on a wing or haf forward.
The numbers do not lie. Shield has been top 10 in the comp for center clearances for a few years including last year when he was average. It is the area of the game he is rated elite.
Shield also played forward in patches of the Hawks game. 20 possessions and two goals and everyone is on his case.
We lack midfield depth and you are saying cut the elite center clearance player on our list ?
Play Parish in the middle for sure, which they have in all three games this year. But let's not just move on an elite clearance player. What we actuality need is a big bodied blocker so Parish and Shiel can be protected more. Stringer does it well but a permanent blocker for Shiel , Merret and Parish would be nice.
Parish as ball pig who shovels out and Shiel as read the tap and burst from clearance gives us a nice balance for oppo mids to be concerned about. Both have issues with delivery by foot. If only they both kicked like Walla.
 

Towno78

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My suggestion to you is go back and look how good Shiel was in 2019. If anything it is McGrath that should move to a wing or flank. He is the "converted" midfielder that would be just as good on a wing or haf forward.
The numbers do not lie. Shield has been top 10 in the comp for center clearances for a few years including last year when he was average. It is the area of the game he is rated elite.
Shield also played forward in patches of the Hawks game. 20 possessions and two goals and everyone is on his case.
We lack midfield depth and you are saying cut the elite center clearance player on our list ?
Play Parish in the middle for sure, which they have in all three games this year. But let's not just move on an elite clearance player. What we actuality need is a big bodied blocker so Parish and Shiel can be protected more. Stringer does it well but a permanent blocker for Shiel , Merret and Parish would be nice.
Yep, Shiel would look a whole lot better with better support.

I also think Merrett could spend less time in the centre if we find a good enough replacement. Not because he's not good enough in there, but he could be incredibly damaging on a wing or a hbf.
 

ant555

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The other part of the equation in the midfield is Parish through the nature of his game is the worst defender of the group. It is not a lazy aspect but more how he is wired to play. He chases the footy and that leaves one hole defensively. Add that to Merrett being a bit wonky defensively previously as he has had a bit of a ball watching issue and then there are two holes.
One of the reasons Siel dropped his bundle last year was the fact no one was defending or protecting. In 2019 Siel was very good at picking up a player in transition. He is not a great defender but he has the footy brain to know what to do.
It is also why Snelling and Guelfi become important as they do try and cover the midfield holes.
 

Yoda_

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My eyes aren’t nearly as well trained or educated as you ant555 so cheers for the insight.

What fuels my desire to move on Dylan is the collateral he could gain us, potentially a first round pick. Darcy would be a 15 - 30 pick imho.
The other is Shiels lack of versatility. It’s all well and good to suggest Shiel over Darcy but is Shiel that much better than Parish? Last weeks effort to go by then Darcy could be as good by years end providing he gets a continual crack at it.


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TheWeapon

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Long term would be looking at Reid and Eyre replacing Hurley and Hooker as FB and FF. Next draft will be key for our midfield - both adding in and retaining esp Merrett and Parish
 

ant555

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My eyes aren’t nearly as well trained or educated as you ant555 so cheers for the insight.

What fuels my desire to move on Dylan is the collateral he could gain us, potentially a first round pick. Darcy would be a 15 - 30 pick imho.
The other is Shiels lack of versatility. It’s all well and good to suggest Shiel over Darcy but is Shiel that much better than Parish? Last weeks effort to go by then Darcy could be as good by years end providing he gets a continual crack at it.


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Not sure he has first round value now ,well not until he gets back and starts playing and he will be 29.
He is a better player than a lot think he is but with this injury you could say he will be a bust for the price we paid unless he can hold some decent form pass 32 .
We paid overs but as we know now they over rated the list and the Joe factor really hurt us along with a few other injuries.
It is a bit of a shame. If we did not have Joe and Stewart blow up then we would have been a decent side. Not premiership but a real finals contender.
 

Big Slam

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...with this injury you could say he will be a bust for the price we paid...
“Will be”?

He already is.

For the draft collateral and salary cap % we invested in him he needs to be a significant difference maker.

Shiel, for as lovely as he is, is not a difference maker. If he were we wouldn’t have been a pedestrian midfield for the past few years and had the substandard record that we’ve had.

I’m just glad they didn’t make the same mistake with Dunkley - which they very nearly did.

That would have set the youth movement back 5 years and kept us on the hamster wheel for longer.
 

ant555

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“Will be”?

He already is.

For the draft collateral and salary cap % we invested in him he needs to be a significant difference maker.

Shiel, for as lovely as he is, is not a difference maker. If he were we wouldn’t have been a pedestrian midfield for the past few years and had the substandard record that we’ve had.

I’m just glad they didn’t make the same mistake with Dunkley - which they very nearly did.

That would have set the youth movement back 5 years and kept us on the hamster wheel for longer.
To be fair if we had a half decent forward line in 2019 there would have been a difference. Not enough to say Grand Final but we would have won a few more games and avoided a Perth final.
No he is not an A grade star but he did improve the midfield.
 

Big Slam

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To be fair if we had a half decent forward line in 2019 there would have been a difference. Not enough to say Grand Final but we would have won a few more games and avoided a Perth final.
No he is not an A grade star but he did improve the midfield.
What we have up to get him requires getting an A grade star in return.

As you’ve pointed out, he’s not an A grade star.

He’s a good (albeit limited) footballer, but when looking at the ROI he’s already a bust.
 

ant555

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What we have up to get him requires getting an A grade star in return.

As you’ve pointed out, he’s not an A grade star.

He’s a good (albeit limited) footballer, but when looking at the ROI he’s already a bust.
What we gave up has not produced an A grade yet either and we actually have Caldwell. Sure it was two first round picks in the 10 to 15 range but haven’t lost out on a superstar by doing it .
 

citizen-erased

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What we gave up has not produced an A grade yet either and we actually have Caldwell. Sure it was two first round picks in the 10 to 15 range but haven’t lost out on a superstar by doing it .
Shiel deal is an interesting one

We gave up 2018 1st (Caldwell...so in effect that became 2021 2nd + most of Fantasia) & 2019 1st (Bergman*) w/ Moz coming in for the 2nd we got back
*I don't think for a second we take Bergman, and if we take Dodoro at his word, he rated Jones top 10, so to get him at 14 would have been a bargain in his eyes.

So we have Caldwell, Jones & Shiel minus Fantasia, Pick 29, Fraser Rosman (Roos got this pick for Jones, who traded it to the Dees, who took Rosman) and our 2nd this year.

Hindsight, maybe you don't do the deal.
Invest in the draft, bank Fantasia the year earlier and hope for a late 1st and keep our 2nd last year & this year (Jack Carroll and another mid to add to the depth).

It's nowhere near the disaster the Daniher debacle turned out to be.
 

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