Strategy Talk about the makeup of our list (and overall list management)

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Keystone agony

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Tall: Wright, Jones, Francis
Small: Walla, Snelling, Smith

Seems the most likely starting forward line in 2022. The midfield + bench will then have 8 midfielders some of whom will also rotate through the forward line, including Stringer, Langford and Shiel.

Waterman, Perkins, Hird as depth plus the young talls.
Oh right yeh now I remember

No Perkins best 22? Fairly big call that

Im sick of D.Smiths undisciplined acts but he finished the season off quite well with 9 goals in 7 games.
I get worried about measuring him on goals because as you say he's so undisciplined, calls for the ball when he shouldn't and has shots at goal when there's better options. As you say if he can kick 27 goals for a year than maybe that's OK.

I think he was good in his last couple of weeks

His best part of his game is his pressure it seems which I'm fine with that, just would prefer a Perkins and Francis over him especially considering where there at in their career as a forward at AFL level. Plenty of potential progression/upside
 
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Ants

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Oh right yeh now I remember

No Perkins best 22? Fairly big call that
….
Why? In his last 5 games he cracked double digit possessions twice (10 & 12), scored 3 goals total and once had more than 1 tackle in the game. He only played due to lack of depth and for experience. He was a liability.

In those same games Smith averaged 16 disposals, 1.4 goals and 3.4 tackles a match. Waterman played the last 4 and easily beats Perkins on goals and tackles.

Now, Perkins has great promise and may step up over the preseason. But until I’ve seen more I’m not putting him in the best 22 on hope and promise
 

Keystone agony

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Why? In his last 5 games he cracked double digit possessions twice (10 & 12), scored 3 goals total and once had more than 1 tackle in the game. He only played due to lack of depth and for experience. He was a liability.

In those same games Smith averaged 16 disposals, 1.4 goals and 3.4 tackles a match. Waterman played the last 4 and easily beats Perkins on goals and tackles.

Now, Perkins has great promise and may step up over the preseason. But until I’ve seen more I’m not putting him in the best 22 on hope and promise
I'm just of the opinion that we have to get as many games into Perkins at all cost asap

I also really like what he does forward at the moment, I think his speed/agility and ability to get across the ground stands out when you have Waterman, Stringer, Francis, Wright, Dev, Snelling, Tippa there (None are great athletes)

I think alot relies on a guy like Perkins on his ability to step up and with us contending, not saying that will occur next year, but we just further delay this.

I'm also not against giving him a 5-6 week stint later in the year as a pure inside mid in the VFL if he hasn't been able to get enough minutes there during the season in the AFL

I also know you can't just pick guys if there getting 5 disposals every week because there a top 10 pick but I see the huge upside and importance to our next step in 2023-24
 

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GUMBLETRON

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Why? In his last 5 games he cracked double digit possessions twice (10 & 12), scored 3 goals total and once had more than 1 tackle in the game. He only played due to lack of depth and for experience. He was a liability.
Not the first time a young player has run out of gas and won't be the last either.
 

Ants

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……

I'm also not against giving him a 5-6 week stint later in the year as a pure inside mid in the VFL if he hasn't been able to get enough minutes there during the season in the AFL
…..
I think he needs to earn his spot, and short of injuries expect him to start the year in the midfield at VFL level.
Not the first time a young player has run out of gas and won't be the last either.
Of course not. But on a season basis both Waterman and Smith were better. I’m not assuming Perkins will be in until he shows it. Same with Cox.
 

Keystone agony

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I think he needs to earn his spot, and short of injuries expect him to start the year in the midfield at VFL level.

Of course not. But on a season basis both Waterman and Smith were better. I’m not assuming Perkins will be in until he shows it. Same with Cox.
You'd expect a 25 year old and 28 year old to have a better season. It's more who's better in 12-18 months time?

I don't want a player gifted games just because their pick 6 but I think we showed we're willing to drop him and he needs to work
 

TheGrizz

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So if I have it correctly (no guarantee) we have
  • 33 senior listed players including Kelly and upgrading Snelling
  • 3 Rookies (Baldwin, Durham, Waterman)
  • 2 Cat B (Hird and McBride)
Considering that list changes are staying the same for next year, that means we can have 36-38 senior players and 4-6 rookies depending on how many senior list spots we use. Our options are:
  • 3 National Draft picks and up to 3 Rookies
  • 4 ND picks and up to 2 Rookies
  • 5 ND picks and 1 additional rookie (unlikely)
I wonder if we try and pair 51 and 56 together to try and move up (say one of WBD picks 43-45) and use a F1/F2 to pick up another pick in the first 30 picks. That's still 3 picks and allows us to still get two rookies.
 
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eth-dog

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So if I have it correctly (no guarantee) we have
  • 33 senior listed players including Kelly and upgrading Snelling
  • 4 Rookies (Baldwin, Durham, Waterman and McBride)
  • 1 Cat B (Hird)
Considering that list changes are staying the same for next year, that means we can have 36-38 senior players and 4-6 rookies depending on how many senior list spots we use. Our options are:
  • 2 National Draft picks (+ Snelling upgrade) and up to 3 Rookie picks (SSP counts as Rookie pick)
  • 3 ND picks and up to 2 Rookies
  • 4 ND picks and up to 1 Rookie
  • 5 ND picks and no additional rookies (unlikely)
I wonder if we try and pair 51 and 56 together to try and move up (say one of WBD picks 43-45) and use a F1/F2 to pick up another pick in the first 30 picks. That's still 3 picks and allows us to still get two rookies.
McBride is seemingly Cat B. But otherwise, yes.
 

Keystone agony

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Snelling guaranteed of being upgraded? I doubt he is unless it can happen post afl draft

But yes we have 5 open list spots for the draft (Not that we will use them all)
 

Ants

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Snelling guaranteed of being upgraded? I doubt he is unless it can happen post afl draft

But yes we have 5 open list spots for the draft (Not that we will use them all)
I think that you can promote after the draft, but that is why it would be valuable to hold him on the rookie list till next year. Then you can keep a slot open for him which can be used as points to match bids, then promote him after the draft.
He has to be upgraded.
I understand this has changed. The AFL changed the rules this year so players impacted by Covid in 2020 on the rookie list can spend an extra year there.
 

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Ants

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You'd expect a 25 year old and 28 year old to have a better season. It's more who's better in 12-18 months time?

I don't want a player gifted games just because their pick 6 but I think we showed we're willing to drop him and he needs to work
That’s fine, but you seem to be agreeing with me that they’re performing better right now. Given my original post said one of the ways to improve the side was for a player outside the best 22, including Perkins, to push Smith out of the side, I don’t think we’re a million miles apart here.
 

Keystone agony

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That’s fine, but you seem to be agreeing with me that they’re performing better right now. Given my original post said one of the ways to improve the side was for a player outside the best 22, including Perkins, to push Smith out of the side, I don’t think we’re a million miles apart here.
They probably marginally had better seasons last year but I expect Perkins after another PS and considering he barely played the year beforehand to be past them relatively early in the year and maybe even in PS

Plus as I said I'd pick him regardless over the 2 because I like his speed, agility, upside and ability to cover the ground in our front half he's cat like. I'm not saying the same for any of Snelling, Dev, Stringer, 2MP, Francis, Waterman so he offers us a different look. I think we have to be careful about how slow we are in front of the pill, it's a balance we need to find and I think Archie helps with that

I don't think the difference in output right now is enough to warrant picking the 2 over him
 

Ants

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They probably marginally had better seasons last year but I expect Perkins after another PS and considering he barely played the year beforehand to be past them relatively early in the year and maybe even in PS

Plus as I said I'd pick him regardless over the 2 because I like his speed, agility, upside and ability to cover the ground in our front half he's cat like. I'm not saying the same for any of Snelling, Dev, Stringer, 2MP, Francis, Waterman so he offers us a different look. I think we have to be careful about how slow we are in front of the pill, it's a balance we need to find and I think Archie helps with that

I don't think the difference in output right now is enough to warrant picking the 2 over him
The two ahead of him in my best 22 we’re Smith and Snelling. Perkins isn’t particularly quicker or more capable of covering the ground than either of them. He has other strengths (marking, disposal) but right now isn’t best 22.

You’ve pretty much admitting you’re picking him on potential and to get experience. Which is equivalent of saying he’s not best 22 right now based on his own merits.

Which is why I said him pushing Smith out was a source of internal improvement
 

Keystone agony

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The two ahead of him in my best 22 we’re Smith and Snelling. Perkins isn’t particularly quicker or more capable of covering the ground than either of them. He has other strengths (marking, disposal) but right now isn’t best 22.

You’ve pretty much admitting you’re picking him on potential and to get experience. Which is equivalent of saying he’s not best 22 right now based on his own merits.

Which is why I said him pushing Smith out was a source of internal improvement
Yeh look I think he moves alot better than Dev Smith

I suppose I have an eye to the future in my best side and I think that's important but I'm expecting him to be past both Waters and Dev Smith early next year

And even if he's 1% behind them I'm still picking him over those guys with the upside being clear and the speed/agility he offers in front of the footy which is unique to our front 6
 

Mikevk123

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Our List for 2022 so far

Key Defenders
1. James Stewart
2. Jayden Laverde
3. Zach Reid
4. Brandon Zerk-Thatcher
5. Michael Hurley
6. Cody Brand

Defenders
1. Jordan Ridley
2. Mason Redman
3. Dyson Heppell
4. Nick Hind
5. Jake Kelly
6. Tom Cutler
7. Alistair Lord


Midfielders
1. Zach Merrett
2. Darcy Parish
3. Dylan Shiel
4. Andrew McGrath
5. Jye Caldwell
6. Kyle Langford
7. Sam Durham
8. Nik Cox
9. Ben Hobbs
10. Matt Guelfi
11. Brayden Ham
12. Patrick Voss
13. Garrett Mcdonaugh

Forwards
1. Jake Stringer
2. Anthony McDonald-Tipungwutti
3. Will Snelling
4. Devon Smith
5. Archie Perkins
6. Alec Waterman
7. Tom Hird

Key Forwards
1. Peter Wright
2. Harry Jones
3. Aaron Francis
4. Kaine Baldwin
5. Cian McBridge
6. Josh Eyre
 

eth-dog

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Doing this again (I told you guys I'd wait until after the draft period was over! Ha!)

Defenders:

Key Defenders: James Stewart (fwd), Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, Zach Reid, Josh Eyre (fwd), Cody Brand
Medium Defenders: Aaron Francis, Jake Kelly, Tom Cutler (mid), Jordan Ridley, Jayden Laverde, Dyson Heppell
Small Defenders: Nick Hind, Mason Redman, Alastair Lord (fwd)

Midfielders:

Inside Midfielders: Andrew McGrath (def), Darcy Parish (fwd), Jye Caldwell (fwd), Ben Hobbs, Dylan Shiel, Patrick Voss (def)
Outside Midfielders: Kyle Langford (fwd), Zach Merrett, Nik Cox (fwd/def), Brayden Ham (fwd), Matt Guelfi (def), Sam Durham (def), Garrett McDonagh (def)
Rucks: Sam Draper, Nick Bryan (fwd), Andrew Phillips

Forwards:

Key Forwards: Michael Hurley (def), Peter Wright (ruc), Harrison Jones, Kaine Baldwin, Cian McBride (def)
Medium Forwards: Archie Perkins (mid), Jake Stringer (mid), Alec Waterman (mid)
Small Forwards: Devon Smith (mid), Will Snelling (mid), Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti, Tom Hird (def)

I'm hoping the SSP spots are used on an inside midfielder and a small forward personally. Someone like Luke Nankervis who's a forward flanker wouldn't be too bad either.
 

BrunoV

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All you can really ask for is a set of players who fill the needs on the list and who have the attributes that we can develop into the sorts of players that really make a difference in an AFL match.

With that in mind you can't really fault the picks that were taken.

Hobbs is the style of mid we don't pick, that no frills inside work horse with the engine to go all day. Not every player of the future midfield needs to be able to do it all. What we should have learned by now is that having the pieces to fit together is more important than the ability of the individuals. He's also an extremely highly regarded player who is credited with the sort of intangibles that are a key ingredient in good teams. I wouldn't get caught up in arguing with the caricature of Dodoro when it comes to Hobbs 'being rated in the top 7'. Plenty of draft watchers had Hobbs in this range. It's not a big claim that needs to be rationalised.

Lord is another that fills a clear area of need. We lost Saad and McKenna and only replaced one of them. Admittedly, there has been a reshuffle which has addressed this loss in the best 22 but there is no depth of running defenders. Lord has all of the raw attributes to be the player we need.

I had an initial scepticism when it came to McDonagh because my fingers were crossed that Long would fall to us (Long clearly being another style of player who was a clear need). Physical, big engine, big kick and someone who can provide us with the depth the list doesn't have, particularly in terms of physicality around the ball. That all works.

Voss is the one who ties it all together. A big, aggressive brute of a kid who seems to have too many tricks for a player who wasn't looked at as more than a rookie. I don't think we should be fooled into thinking he can do it in 2022 or even 2023 but as a project he's essentially everything we would ask for when it comes to adding that big body and physical presence around the ball.

If you look at the next generation of midfielders, which would start with Caldwell it's shaping up quite nicely with a much better balance of options than we've had. You're looking at:

1. Caldwell, 183cm & 82kgs is a dynamic inside/out clearance player;
2. Perkins, 188cm & 87kgs, is another potentially dynamic inside/out clearance player with top level endurance;
3. Hobbs, 183cm & 79kgs, is the inside workhorse who seems to work hard both ways;
4. Voss, 194cm & 88kgs (I've rounded this number because there are conflicting reports), is a guy who it looks to me we will develop inside and I'd suggest that should be as more of a defensive player - at least initially - something like Yeo because before he became a complete star.

I would really like to add Rantall as an SSP because you can't overestimate the benefit of that running power between the arcs.

Thrown in Durham and Cox on the wings and there is a really nice blend of midfield and wing options for the future. When the balance works by default it becomes very easy to manage from that point.
 
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