Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[ghostdog]

I just keep comparing to 2017... because it's two years on and we've finished in basically the same position.

I've left out players who either didn't or haven't played a game for us.

Departures: Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking, Colyer, Howlett, Bird, Leuenberger, Green, J Merrett

Arrivals: Smith, Stringer, Shiel, Saad, Guelfi, Z Clarke, Ham, Zerk-Thatcher, Jok

So we've certainly added to the list in some areas.

But you look at the list of departures and it would appear experience and leadership are an issue. Look at the names... Watson, Goddard, Kelly, Stanton, Hocking.

Now, I know some of those blokes were cooked on-field and in their last season, but leadership goes a lot further than that. It's not just on match-day but even when it is, it's not just kicks and handballs.. it's the organisation of players and everything else. It's consistent effort. It's calming the troops when the opposition get a run-on and getting them to focus on the basics and stop the momentum. It's doing the right thing every single time at training and cracking those who don't.

I know Lloyd has been very critical of our "leadership" group and he's possibly not far off the mark.

The guys who came in... I think Smith is a leader. Other than that, I'm really not sure. I think Stringer has shown signs but he's also not very vocal it would appear.

Who else is a leader on our list?

I've got no doubt about Heppell and Hooker.

Merrett? Shiel? Hurley? Daniher? Fantasia? I'm not convinced these guys are natural leaders. That's not really a criticism by the way, it's' just who they are I think. Can they have a huge influence on what their teammates do?

I'd look in hindsight and say it was a mistake to retire Goddard when he wanted to go on.

And then... do we need leadership from outside? Look at what Kelly did for us here, and what Hodge has done at the Lions.

Outside the box thinking: do we look to bring in a leader or two?

Yes, we do. Another reason Wines should be in the conversation.

 

[rusman]

Soft cap? Aren't we shedding players to fit Martin in?

Are we? I haven’t heard that’s the case other then by people with as much knowledge as me (nfi). Maybe we are hawks good at list management.

Also depends who we give up and what we get back.

To pass up on talented players as a starting point is never a good strategy. Particularly when you have to pay 95%.

 

[Darealrath]

There should be no cap floor. It doesn’t make sense.

Having no cap floor allows proper list management. I mean how can there be 5% salary difference between Collingwood and goldcoast. It should be 70% haha.

Imagine doing a fantasy draft of hawks at there peak vs Melbourne back in 2013. You’d get very late before a dee was selected.

Agree but the AFLPA would do all they can to block.

FWIW I remember hearing that part of the point of the floor was to stop say a Fitzroy remaining solvent by paying peanuts to players who wanted to keep the club afloat.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yes, we do. Another reason Wines should be in the conversation.

We need tough mids who are leaders from successful cultures. Josh Kennedy, Luke Parker... these types. Somebody like that sounds silly but it’s really exactly what we’re missing. Would much rather see us trying to shake someone like that loose with a big money 3-year deal than chase the likes of Jack Martin.

 

[vass44]

We need tough mids who are leaders from successful cultures. Josh Kennedy, Luke Parker... these types. Somebody like that sounds silly but it’s really exactly what we’re missing. Would much rather see us trying to shake someone like that loose with a big money 3-year deal than chase the likes of Jack Martin.

Agree with this. I don’t think Joe would be totally adverse to going to the Swans either given his dad played there and he has copped his fair share of heckling from Essendon supporters in recent times so a fresh start might be just what he needs. It could work for both clubs - Buddy is not getting any younger and the Swans just might be prepared to give up a Parker or Kennedy type and take a chance on Joe.


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[ghostdog]

We need tough mids who are leaders from successful cultures. Josh Kennedy, Luke Parker... these types. Somebody like that sounds silly but it’s really exactly what we’re missing. Would much rather see us trying to shake someone like that loose with a big money 3-year deal than chase the likes of Jack Martin.

Prefer not Kennedy unless it's in some kind of mentoring capacity; 1 - 2 years on field, 2 years mentoring/assisting would be great. Parker or Wines would be great. Martin is a no from me. I don't think he fills a need and it sounds like he costs too much. Actually, even if Kennedy retires he'd still be great to bring in to mentor the midfield group.

 

[ghostdog]

You know football better than reaching the conclusion that I was saying Ham is as good as Martin or that he even needs to be as good as Martin to perform a "role" that is just as valuable to the side.

Give the boy a pre-season and with his work rate and natural endurance he will run circles around Martin, period.

He's not going to play the occasions game breaking performance but he's good for 20 possessions a game burning up and down the wing which is what we need (much more than the occasional game breaking performance, rest of the time flaky, lazy bulls**t).

So, Ham is not as good and doesn't need to be as good, but with one pre-season he will not only be better, he will be, like, 10 times better. Yet, in spite of that, he'll only be good for about 20 possessions a game.
I reckon you should also nail your colours to the mast, Bruno!

 

[Sockeye]

Martin is going to Carlton.

 

[eth-dog]

There should be no cap floor. It doesn’t make sense.

Having no cap floor allows proper list management. I mean how can there be 5% salary difference between Collingwood and goldcoast. It should be 70% haha.

Imagine doing a fantasy draft of hawks at there peak vs Melbourne back in 2013. You’d get very late before a dee was selected.

A cap floor means club can't deliberately under pay players so they can go even harder at the likes of Kelly, Martin etc. It's a good idea but as it stands it's way too high

 

[owen87]

I do think there needs to be a minimum, but 95% isn't it. GC having to pay 95% of West Coast / Collingwood / GWS is absurd and leads to Jack Martin wanting $600k p.a. after playing half the season in the NEAFL.

Wines would suit our list well, but can't see Port letting him go unless Fantasia is involved in a trade (and might not even then; Boak & Rockliff are close to the end). SPP is likely gettable would also come with a premium that probably doesn't befit his contribution. Probably depends on what SA talent is on offer in the draft as to whether or not they'll accept draft picks or want a player.

Our leadership group was weird, seemed to be us trying to manufacture leaders instead of actually selecting players based on who IS a leader.

Hooker, Heppell, Hurley, Smith, McGrath, Merrett (though I believe he's lowered his colours of late as a leader) and perhaps Saad, Shiel and Redman are the ones who come across as a "follow me" type of player. Don't think we have any leader types in the forwardline.

Without blowing up the leadership group I think Heppell (C) supported by a Merrett (VC) and one of Hooker or Hurley (VC) with Smith / Shiel / McGrath as nominated 'leaders' as recognition for their training standards and attitude on-field. A blend of age / experience / drafted / traded.

For me, the leadership group needs to reflect two things; the players others will listen to and follow on the field, and the players who represent the standard (at training and on game day) that everyone should be following. I truly think Goddard was highly underrated for the way the 2016 team came together and played under his leadership, if the current crop came to each game with the attitude that group did we'd be a far better team.

 

[Milanista28]

Totally agree. Midfield with Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel and Smith is just too small. Individually they are all very good players but as a collective, too small, not strong enough at the contest, easily out marked. We need to go hard for one or both of the Crouch brothers so Merrett and McGrath can play on the wings and Smith as a pressure forward. There is upside to both Parish and Shiel as mids in 2020.

Let's pretend we tried to land both Crouch brothers, what would be needed to satisfy the Crows assuming both asked to leave and both selected us.

I'd be desperate to keep Francis out of the deal.

A combo of Fantasia, 2x 2019 2nd rounders, 2020 1st and someone else we don't want to lose, Gleeson and Ridley?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I do think there needs to be a minimum, but 95% isn't it. GC having to pay 95% of West Coast / Collingwood / GWS is absurd and leads to Jack Martin wanting $600k p.a. after playing half the season in the NEAFL.

Wines would suit our list well, but can't see Port letting him go unless Fantasia is involved in a trade (and might not even then; Boak & Rockliff are close to the end). SPP is likely gettable would also come with a premium that probably doesn't befit his contribution. Probably depends on what SA talent is on offer in the draft as to whether or not they'll accept draft picks or want a player.

Our leadership group was weird, seemed to be us trying to manufacture leaders instead of actually selecting players based on who IS a leader.

Hooker, Heppell, Hurley, Smith, McGrath, Merrett (though I believe he's lowered his colours of late as a leader) and perhaps Saad, Shiel and Redman are the ones who come across as a "follow me" type of player. Don't think we have any leader types in the forwardline.

Without blowing up the leadership group I think Heppell (C) supported by a Merrett (VC) and one of Hooker or Hurley (VC) with Smith / Shiel / McGrath as nominated 'leaders' as recognition for their training standards and attitude on-field. A blend of age / experience / drafted / traded.

For me, the leadership group needs to reflect two things; the players others will listen to and follow on the field, and the players who represent the standard (at training and on game day) that everyone should be following. I truly think Goddard was highly underrated for the way the 2016 team came together and played under his leadership, if the current crop came to each game with the attitude that group did we'd be a far better team.

Goddard was shockingly underrated as a leader because of the way the media loved to focus on his angry head. The nerve of him to speak aggressively sometimes.

He’s an absolute student of the game and you won’t hear a bad word about him from St Kilda or Essendon players.

To think he wanted to play on this year and nobody even bothered despite the likes Gold Coast now scrambling for a Hodge type.

We certainly let him go too early, he would’ve been a major asset around the club this year.

 

[BrunoV]

Q

So, Ham is not as good and doesn't need to be as good, but with one pre-season he will not only be better, he will be, like, 10 times better. Yet, in spite of that, he'll only be good for about 20 possessions a game.
I reckon you should also nail your colours to the mast, Bruno!

Clumsy wording but surely the context speaks for itself. Or do I have to assume that we forget every know fact about Martin (e.g. rocking up unfit, being dropped from the side for the last 3 rounds) and common sense generally (e.g. hard working disciplined players can be more important than players with star potential; and another e.g. players who get dropped for games from a side that finished last but are still considered good are unlikely to be disciplined work horses) for every new post?

 

[calyam]

I'd argue that the club needs to change its onfield leadership.

We need to move away from guys who have been forged in the Essendon culture. Heppell and Hooker and Hurley have never known on-field success. Are they really in a position to push the team forward? Do they have any idea what it takes to lead a successful footy team?

I'd be looking to a leadership team of Shiel (C), with Smith (VC) and Merrett (VC) providing support. A broader leadership group can incorporate guys like Heppell and Hurley. Shiel and Smith come from a successful football culture having played under an excellent captain in Callan Ward. Shiel's preparation is impeccable and provides a baseline for every other player. Merrett is still young enough that he need not be hampered long-term by Essendon's culture of accepted mediocrity.

 

[vast]

I'd argue that the club needs to change its onfield leadership.

We need to move away from guys who have been forged in the Essendon culture. Heppell and Hooker and Hurley have never known on-field success. Are they really in a position to push the team forward? Do they have any idea what it takes to lead a successful footy team?

I'd be looking to a leadership team of Shiel (C), with Smith (VC) and Merrett (VC) providing support. A broader leadership group can incorporate guys like Heppell and Hurley. Shiel and Smith come from a successful football culture having played under an excellent captain in Callan Ward. Shiel's preparation is impeccable and provides a baseline for every other player. Merrett is still young enough that he need not be hampered long-term by Essendon's culture of accepted mediocrity.

Heppell is a far better leader than Merrett. Nothing Merrett has done of late shows any leadership quality.

 

[calyam]

Heppell is a far better leader than Merrett. Nothing Merrett has done of late shows any leadership quality.

Next season is Heppell's ninth and he has yet to win a game that matters. He knows nothing but how to lose gracefully.

I'm sure he is a good bloke and he might even be a reasonable leader. But he isn't captain of a footy club material.

Merrett I simply included because he is still young enough that the stink may not have stuck yet. There is still hope for him.

 

[Mr Bultitude]

Goddard was shockingly underrated as a leader because of the way the media loved to focus on his angry head. The nerve of him to speak aggressively sometimes.

He’s an absolute student of the game and you won’t hear a bad word about him from St Kilda or Essendon players.

To think he wanted to play on this year and nobody even bothered despite the likes Gold Coast now scrambling for a Hodge type.

We certainly let him go too early, he would’ve been a major asset around the club this year.

It pains me that we didn't hold onto him. Clubman and leader through and through. The way he arked up over the flog who threw his drink at Merrett, he can't help but back up his boy, and it's a shame he could only do it through social media. Imagine if he was on the ground last week ..

 

[vast]

Next season is Heppell's ninth and he has yet to win a game that matters. He knows nothing but how to lose gracefully.

I'm sure he is a good bloke and he might even be a reasonable leader. But he isn't captain of a footy club material.

Merrett I simply included because he is still young enough that the stink may not have stuck yet. There is still hope for him.

What specifically do u see in Merrett that says leader?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It pains me that we didn't hold onto him. Clubman and leader through and through. The way he arked up over the flog who threw his drink at Merrett, he can't help but back up his boy, and it's a shame he could only do it through social media. Imagine if he was on the ground last week ..

I know there’s contracts and that but there’s something basically wrong when Myers stays on and is part of the leadership group and Goddard is sent packing...

 

[owen87]

What specifically do u see in Merrett that says leader?

I think Merrett stood up as a young leader of the club in 2016, and often fills the game-day Captain role when Heppell isn't playing which suggests at least an element of respect internally.

I'd like to see him given more responsibility with the expectation that he also sets an appropriate standard. He seems to seagull around a little at times avoiding contact, which is something I think we need to get back out of his game. He didn't have that so obviously a few years ago.

 

[owen87]

I know there’s contracts and that but there’s something basically wrong when Myers stays on and is part of the leadership group and Goddard is sent packing...

From memory wasn't BJ not overly keen on playing VFL? Bit of a combination of the club needing to move people on and Goddard wanting (and believing he'd find) more opportunity.

I think he was half a season early in finishing, could probably have eked out a bit longer at a GC where they're screaming for mature leaders. I also think we should have retained him as Captain in 2017 instead of immediately going to Heppell, but hindsight and all.

 

[vast]

I think Merrett stood up as a young leader of the club in 2016, and often fills the game-day Captain role when Heppell isn't playing which suggests at least an element of respect internally.

I'd like to see him given more responsibility with the expectation that he also sets an appropriate standard. He seems to seagull around a little at times avoiding contact, which is something I think we need to get back out of his game. He didn't have that so obviously a few years ago.

He has regressed as a player since then. Tackling, contested work and kicking has all gone down in that time. At least Heppell was trying to lift the team in the 2nd half despite the injury. Merrett did f all.

 

[calyam]

What specifically do u see in Merrett that says leader?

He has shown leadership qualities over a number of years. That has been evident since his second season.

That doesn't change because he pulled NicNat's hair.

What I like about Merrett in particular is his consistency. Very rarely plays a poor game and tends to drop off less during losses than his teammates. It speaks to his character and the pride he places on effort and preparation.

Anyway, I'd certainly be happier with a Shiel (C) and Smith / Merrett (VC) leadership group than the current mob of career underachievers.

 

[vast]

He has shown leadership qualities over a number of years. That has been evident since his second season.

That doesn't change because he pulled NicNat's hair.

What I like about Merrett in particular is his consistency. Very rarely plays a poor game and tends to drop off less during losses than his teammates. It speaks to his character and the pride he places on effort and preparation.

Anyway, I'd certainly be happier with a Shiel (C) and Smith / Merrett (VC) leadership group than the current mob of career underachievers.

Whats the hair pull got to do with anything?
I never even mentioned that.

He is not the type that can lift the team when they need it. All he does these days is skirt around the packs looking for cheap kicks and teams dont even bother tagging him anymore because he just isnt damaging as he used to be.

 

[ant555]

The worrying thing is all these players people want to trade are worth SFA. The players worth anything we aren’t willing to trade away.

We literally are stuck in no mans land right now. We have an abundance of under utilised kids (Ridley, Draper, BZT) and a bunch of list cloggers who have offered up 90% of SFA (Baguley, Long, Myers, Dea).

Genuinely bamboozled why we continually offer up deals for players we know aren’t good enough and going deep in the rookie draft well and take on speculative kids.

We have no identity, we are a one trick pony launching from the back half and to top it off our injury list is one of the worst to crucial players in the AFL.

We literally have no one from last nights team that most people would be willing to trade out if it meant we re enter the draft early.
Imagine trading Parish for a top 10 - 15 pick. Would people do it?
What about trading Merrett for two firsts? Fantasia isn’t getting us a first rounder. His recent body of work just isn’t there.
These two are probably the only ones worth looking at that are of value.


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I am not sure we need to be trading despite the gaps in the list.
I know I said I would look at Dainher or Fantaisia trades but only if we can get a decent deal. Fantaisia has value, more than you think. As far as Merrett goes sure you may get two firsts but he is not the player you want to be trading.
We have done bloody well at the trade table in the last two years. I think it is time to make some small moves.
We have started building an identity. Sure it is not always on show but it has come out in periods of games and even for a while last Thursday. There is work to do that is for sure and it may well be a few of the current list will be retired before it happens but the steps are in place. I know we have remained the same for 3 years but this was the first season of team defence under Rutten. The club has identified where it needs to go, they have got the assistants / next series of coaches they want now they have to keep working the list .