Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

eth-dog · Aug 30, 2021

I'm thinking, as a whole:

2 years: Jayden Laverde (game based trigger for another, say, 30?)
1 year: Cian McBride, Dylan Clarke, Ned Cahill, Tom Hird, Tom Cutler

Retire: Cale Hooker, Patrick Ambrose, David Zaharakis
Delist: Lachlan Johnson, Irving Mosquito, Martin Gleeson

The reality at this stage is we can probably only keep one of Cutler or Gleeson. The MC have shown that they prefer Cutler so in all likelihood he's the one to stay unless they make the call to keep both. The decision can probably be made after the trade period however.

Trade/FA:

1. Sign Seb Ross (FA)
2. Pick 48 for Lewis Young and a future 4th round pick

Leaves us with 4 open spots on the list heading into the draft.

Pick 11: Josh Goater (190 cm/79 kg, Inside Midfielder, Calder Cannons)
Pick 54: Judd McVee (178/65, Half Back, East Fremantle)
Pick 84: Nyawi Moore* (183/77, Small Forward, Bendigo Pioneers)
Pick 102: Tex Wanganeen* (175/72, Small Forward, Oakleigh Chargers)

*Father Sons that could be taken as rookies but I'm not sure where we are in terms of senior/rookie lists at this point. Plus the Snelling upgrade which technically no longer requires a pick. As a whole, that leaves us at:

Defence:

Key Defenders: James Stewart (fwd), Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, Zach Reid, Josh Eyre (fwd), Cody Brand, Lewis Young
Medium Defenders: Aaron Francis (fwd), Tom Cutler (mid), Jordan Ridley, Jayden Laverde, Dyson Heppell (mid)
Small Defenders: Nick Hind, Mason Redman, Judd McVee

Midfield:

Inside Midfielders: Andrew McGrath (def), Darcy Parish (fwd), Jye Caldwell (fwd), Dylan Shiel, Matt Guelfi (fwd/def), Josh Goater, Seb Ross
Outside Midfielders: Kyle Langford (fwd), Zachary Merrett, Nik Cox (fwd/def), Brayden Ham (fwd), Sam Durham (def)
Rucks: Sam Draper, Nick Bryan (fwd), Andrew Phillips

Forward:

Key Forwards: Michael Hurley (def), Peter Wright (ruc), Harrison Jones, Kaine Baldwin, Cian McBride (def)
Medium Forwards: Archie Perkins (mid), Jake Stringer (mid), Dylan Clarke (mid), Alec Waterman
Small Forwards: Devon Smith (mid), Ned Cahill (mid), Will Snelling (mid), Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti, Tom Hird, Nyawi Moore, Tex Wanganeen

Lore · Aug 30, 2021

eth-dog said:
Inside Midfielders: Matt Guelfi (fwd/def)

Lore · Aug 30, 2021

According to this Laverde isn't out of contract. I guess they're assuming (or otherwise know) that he has activated the games-based trigger on his existing contract, although the club never announced it.

Coaching shake-up looms as Bombers part with assistant coach

Essendon's forward line coach Dan Jordan is set to depart as the Bombers weigh up their coaching structure for 2022

www.afl.com.au

quotemokc · Aug 30, 2021

Jade said:
I like the quality of our list at the moment, but I think there are four specific positions we need to look at. The question is, how do we address them?

Key Defender

Our key defensive stocks are interesting. Hurley may or may not go on, and Jimmy Stewart has been serviceable if not spectacular in the role. Zach Reid is obviously highly rated long term, but I feel like we're still one short here. A lot depends on how much we like Zerk-Thatcher in the mid term, and if we rate Brand long term. If it's a tick for both, I'd say we're ok and don't need to pursue this barring a best available draft pick. Conversely, if we're not sold on one or both, I might look to the trade table for some options in the 22-24yo range - I'm thinking Griffin Logue (contracted 2022) as an example, but what would really tickle my fancy? Collingwood still has some residual cap issues, and Darcy Moore is a free agent next year. Be very interested in that conversation, particularly because we're likely to be open to trading next years first rounder for the right deal. We'd have to pay through the nose, no doubt about it - but one of the few players I think is worth the expense.

Small Forward

Walla is great, but I feel we need another class small forward. The shame of it is, talent wise we probably had that in Mosquito, but I think odds are long indeed for him returning. The good thing about small forwards, is going to the draft and picking best available is a decent option - they can impact games from a young age. Having said that, I was interested to note reports we're interested in Malcolm Rosas who is uncontracted at Gold Coast next year. The cost would be minimal (if it took any currency at all). Admittedly I don't know a lot about him, but his draft profile makes for good reading. Classic free hit IMO, and I hope we get that deal done.

I'm not a fan of spending up big on small forwards (as they are classically hot and cold players) so thoughts of pursuing Rankine or the like is a hard no.

Wouldn't be surprised to see us have a dip at Keidean Coleman.

Midfielder

Here's the question - is Pidge going to be the guy? If so, our midfield on paper is there IMO, and we only need to replenish through the draft. Draper, Parish, Merrett, Shiel, Caldwell, McGrath, Stringer - it looks the goods. If we ultimately make the call we'd like to see Pidge off half back, then I think we're likely going to the trade / FA pool to see what we can get.

The Shiel trade SHOULD make us a bit gun shy here. The cost for Dunkley for example was absurd and should not be met. My gut feel is we back in what we have, and not get drawn in to another trade for a high end midfielder.

Key Forward

Look. We're all thinking it, we want Ben King. And yes, Gold Coast will want a metric fu** ton of currency here. Can we get it done this year? The only way I see that happening is if we offload a player of significant value to accrue the necessary currency. One option? We could talk to Adelaide about Aaron Francis - there's some value to be had there - would offering up Francis and next years first net us Adelaide's 2022 first rounder and some late change (for points accrual purposes)? If you think about it, not a terrible deal for both parties. We'd then be offering up our first this year plus Adelaide's next year to Gold Coast in exchange for King.

Net result for the three clubs:

Essendon
In: King, Adelaide 2022 3rd round, Adelaide 2022 4th Rd
Out: Francis, Pick 11, 2022 1st Round Pick

Gold Coast
In: Pick 11, Adelaide 2022 1st Round
Out: King

Adelaide
In: Francis, Essendon 2022 1st Round
Out: 2022 1st Round, 2022 3rd Round, 2022 4th Round

Yes, we're paying BIG, but I'd say it's doable.

We aren't a Ben King away from being a contender.

Throwing away 2 years worth of draft picks has a higher chance of imploding on us than it does of winning us a flag.

Towno78 · Aug 30, 2021

Lore said:
According to this Laverde isn't out of contract. I guess they're assuming (or otherwise know) that he has activated the games-based trigger on his existing contract, although the club never announced it.

Coaching shake-up looms as Bombers part with assistant coach

Essendon's forward line coach Dan Jordan is set to depart as the Bombers weigh up their coaching structure for 2022

www.afl.com.au

He played 23 games, it's probably an OK assumption

Towno78 · Aug 30, 2021

TheGrizz said:
So list size limits as i understand it are as follows
Max of 44 (36-38 primary, 4-6 rookies plus 2 Cat B's).

We currently have 6 rookies on our list due to the MSD being Durham, Baldwin, Snelling, Clarke, Gleeson, Waterman and our two Cat Bs in Hird and McBride.

However we will have 33 senior listed players and at least 3 rookies if you assume the following
- Snelling to be upgraded
- Baldwin, Durham and Waterman being retained as rookies
- Including OOC players like Cutler, Cahill and Johnson until such time they are delisted
- we consider Zaharakis, Hooker, Ambrose and Mosquito goneski.

I think if we are looking to add a small forward and another midfielder to our senior list, we will need at least 4 spots (two traded in, two drafted, then Snelling upgraded as already considered to make mandatory 3 draft selections)

Cutler has probably earned another year.
I would consider then that Cahill, Johnson, Clarke and Gleeson contracts will stay in limbo until trade period is done. If we bring in some FA's or trade targets, their spots are likely in the gun.
If its a quiet one, we dont have a great draft hand and they are likely a chance.

We started with 37 senior list players.
You have taken 4 out, and added 1. That makes 34.

Lore · Aug 30, 2021

Towno78 said:
He played 23 games, it's probably an OK assumption

Well yeah, but that doesn't mean he actually used the clause triggered the contract extension. It would be worth his while to renegotiate his contract for a couple more years rather than take one year at whatever pay and conditions he currently has.

Stopher · Aug 31, 2021

In general terms, none of Hurley, Hooker or Zaka will be part of the list by the end of 2022. That's going to create a decent amount of cap space. Use a bit of it to tie up all the group of exceptional youngsters to better deals.

Retirements already confirmed will mean minimal delistings required. I think there are a handful of players that really suffered from lack of VFL footy. Give them another year.

Take a first-round pick, go a late punt and use the rest for 2022 currency (both for trades and the Davey twins). Keep our powder dry this off-season for said trade. I'd like another year into this group to solidify the direction of the club under Rutten.

ant555 · Aug 31, 2021

Just on the midfield. The comment on Sundays game was the Dogs where too big and strong in contested footy which they where to a degree but our main midfielders in Parish , Merrett and to a degree Shiel matched them for winning the footy and clearances within that group. Where we got beaten up was more the younger blokes in Durham , Perkins etc which is to be expected. Have said it a few times but my feel is we need a workhorse midfielder that can do a bit of blocking and win the ball when it is his turn but have to be an absolute inside bull as far as clearance goes. If we give Parish and Shiel enough protection they along with Stringer and Merritt they will win enough clearance footy.

faible · Aug 31, 2021

ant555 said:
Just on the midfield. The comment on Sundays game was the Dogs where too big and strong in contested footy which they where to a degree but our main midfielders in Parish , Merrett and to a degree Shiel matched them for winning the footy and clearances within that group. Where we got beaten up was more the younger blokes in Durham , Perkins etc which is to be expected. Have said it a few times but my feel is we need a workhorse midfielder that can do a bit of blocking and win the ball when it is his turn but have to be an absolute inside bull as far as clearance goes. If we give Parish and Shiel enough protection they along with Stringer and Merritt they will win enough clearance footy.

David Myers likes this

Old Campaigner · Aug 31, 2021

4th highest scoring side this year so something worked. I’m looking forward to seeing how it goes with another year into Jones and a more developed (and less injured) midfield feeding them the footy.

eDPS · Aug 31, 2021

ant555 said:
Just on the midfield. The comment on Sundays game was the Dogs where too big and strong in contested footy which they where to a degree but our main midfielders in Parish , Merrett and to a degree Shiel matched them for winning the footy and clearances within that group. Where we got beaten up was more the younger blokes in Durham , Perkins etc which is to be expected. Have said it a few times but my feel is we need a workhorse midfielder that can do a bit of blocking and win the ball when it is his turn but have to be an absolute inside bull as far as clearance goes. If we give Parish and Shiel enough protection they along with Stringer and Merritt they will win enough clearance footy.

Caldwell should be that when he is fit and firing

Mootsy · Aug 31, 2021

Would love to see players like Francis plucking marks again!!
Also, players leading for the ball more.

Just a boost of self confidence in general in the forward area.

Mootsy · Aug 31, 2021

Maybe we should we recruit a farmer, work-horse if you will..

faible · Aug 31, 2021

Mootsy said:
Maybe we should we recruit a farmer, work-horse if you will..

Bec Judd is a little older than we'd like, but if it wins us a Grand Final, why not?

citizen-erased · Aug 31, 2021

Keen to see what plans are with Bryan & Baldwin with talks of Chol being a target.

One thing i'd like to see is more aggression on goal from the midfield. Feel we spend too much time looking for inside 50 targets, or a chaos ball in, vs stretching defences by having forwards leading and mids taking shots from 40-50. I feel much of that is the limitation of kicking distance from our mids.

faible · Aug 31, 2021

citizen-erased said:
Keen to see what plans are with Bryan & Baldwin with talks of Chol being a target.

One thing i'd like to see is more aggression on goal from the midfield. Feel we spend too much time looking for inside 50 targets, or a chaos ball in, vs stretching defences by having forwards leading and mids taking shots from 40-50. I feel much of that is the limitation of kicking distance from our mids.

For someone who's a fantastic field kick, Merrett doesn't seem nearly as confident or accurate when in range of goals.

citizen-erased · Aug 31, 2021

owen87 said:
For someone who's a fantastic field kick, Merrett doesn't seem nearly as confident or accurate when in range of goals.

he's capable too. In years gone past he's kicked them from 50.
Needs to back himself.

Lore · Aug 31, 2021

If you have 44 players on the list, without naming them as individuals or worrying about seniors vs rookies, how many should be key forwards/defenders? How many general forwards/defenders? How many rucks? How many to run through the midfield? How many for those flexible wing/pressure/sub/bench roles?

The simple answer I guess is 2x22- so 12 forwards [4 talls], 12 defenders [4 talls], 10 mids, 2 rucks, and 8 more players of some combination to represent the bench..?

TDay · Aug 31, 2021

bacon buster said:
i wouldn't be overpaying him by any means. if we can pick him up dirt cheap (which would mean he'd want to come - not sure if there is a Rutten conenction or not)

Talia is a much better player than Frawley ever was, in fairness, and Mckernan isn't even in that conversation tbf

I'm not wedded to it, i just think it's worth exploring, under the right conditions.

If he was happy to train his ass off, act as an off field mentor, sign a cheap one year contract with no promise of any games and be ready at all times to come in as injury cover or to rest the kids, then yeah sure.
But he'll probably get a better deal elsewhere even as depth

eth-dog · Aug 31, 2021

Lore said:
If you have 44 players on the list, without naming them as individuals or worrying about seniors vs rookies, how many should be key forwards/defenders? How many general forwards/defenders? How many rucks? How many to run through the midfield? How many for those flexible wing/pressure/sub/bench roles?

I think 14 or 15 primary defenders, probably 5 tall, 5 medium and 4 or 5 smalls
3 rucks minimum, maybe 4. A couple will need to be able to play forward.
Probably a dozen "pure" forwards, with a forward/ruck in there as well
Midfielders fill the rest, a 5:3 balance of inside and outside for me

Jade · Aug 31, 2021

Lore said:
If you have 44 players on the list, without naming them as individuals or worrying about seniors vs rookies, how many should be key forwards/defenders? How many general forwards/defenders? How many rucks? How many to run through the midfield? How many for those flexible wing/pressure/sub/bench roles?

The simple answer I guess is 2x22- so 12 forwards [4 talls], 12 defenders [4 talls], 10 mids, 2 rucks, and 8 more players of some combination to represent the bench..?

Yes, but I think you need to break it down further. 12 forwards for example, is that 4 smalls, 4 mid sized, 4 talls?

And then where does multi-positional players count? Is Stringer a forward or a mid a an example?

Lore · Aug 31, 2021

Jade said:
And then where does multi-positional players count? Is Stringer a forward or a mid a an example?

If he plays 50/50 then he counts 50/50. I did put talls in there but mine was more of an example than something I’d spent ages constructing. Just took a basic 6/6/6 and doubled it

Old Campaigner · Aug 31, 2021

Lore said:
If you have 44 players on the list, without naming them as individuals or worrying about seniors vs rookies, how many should be key forwards/defenders? How many general forwards/defenders? How many rucks? How many to run through the midfield? How many for those flexible wing/pressure/sub/bench roles?

The simple answer I guess is 2x22- so 12 forwards [4 talls], 12 defenders [4 talls], 10 mids, 2 rucks, and 8 more players of some combination to represent the bench..?

i don’t think it’s as simple as that. One midfielder can cover an injury to any of the 5 midfielders in the best 22 but if you only have 2 tall forwards in reserve you don’t have many options for injury cover. Not to mention player development needs on top of that.

Lore · Aug 31, 2021

Old Campaigner said:
i don’t think it’s as simple as that. One midfielder can cover an injury to any of the 5 midfielders in the best 22 but if you only have 2 tall forwards in reserve you don’t have many options for injury cover. Not to mention player development needs on top of that.

I did say it was the simple answer. What’s your more erudite version?

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