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Talls

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jathanas said:
Trey is a good egg Mark, but not the KPF we lack in the forward line. He will be an asset regardless.
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as i said, he is not a marking forward. he is not a younger version of jake waterman, for example, as far as i can see it. I dont see him running around and taking marking and kicking a goal a game in 3 years time. I wouldnt put him on a list of developing tall forwards.
 
anshell said:
Great thread Marks.I think the reason why no one’s arguing with you is that you made an irrefutable point about our lack of recruiting of key position players in recent years.It’s really hard to argue with anything you‘ve said here.

I did learn something new in this thread,however.I think it was Royal Sampler,who said that in 2016 we could have had Ratugolea or Stewart in the draft and we went for Mclarty instead.That’s just another black mark in Hine’s recruiting record in my opinion.Ratugolea would have been the ideal player for us,and way better than any of the key forwards we’ve tried out in recent years.
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People been saying it for years. Re lack of quality kpf drafted.
 
Sam Collins is 194cm and about a 100kg. In his first game for Freo a few years back he got 12 possessions and followed it up with 24 possessions the following week. I dont say possessions are everything, but if i was a Freo supporter I would be happy and had he been a Collingwood player, he would be spoken about as the second coming of Jesus.

So he gets injured....well let Wiki tell the story

"Collins was a member of the Box Hill Hawks leadership team from age 19. He was recruited as a mature age player to Fremantle with their third selection, 55th overall, in the 2015 AFL draft.[3] He has made his AFL debut in Round 10 of the 2016 AFL season, against St Kilda at Etihad Stadium, after playing well for Fremantle's reserves team, Peel Thunder, in the West Australian Football League (WAFL).[4]

Collins was delisted by Fremantle at the conclusion of the 2017 season[5] , in the same year in which he won the Dudley Tuckey Medal for Peel Thunder's Best and Fairest player[6] and was named in the WAFL team of the year.[7] He was not drafted by another AFL club in the 2017 AFL draft,[8] and returned to Melbourne to play for Werribee Football Club.[9] He won the Werribee Football Club Best and Fairest in 2018, was named in the VFL team of the year and came equal third in the JJ Liston Medal for the competitions best player.


And he wasn't looked at by the Pies in 2017. Maybe Derek was in Ireland or Nick Guy was out jumping fences or both of them were in deep discussions about what roies each would have. I can only guess.

** ps. I just highlighted the key bits in case Derek is browsing the net and he needs to know the important stuff.

And yes, his season in 2018 brought him to the attention of gold coast and the pies couldnt have drafted him in 2018 - if they cared to. However, he did nothing wrong in his earlier days at Freo and I would have given him a spot ahead of some Irish bloke who had never even played the game.
 
sr36 said:
With the season looking like a write off, I'd like us to give Keane the rest of the year in seniors to see whether he can adjust and Moore the rest of the year up forward to see how he goes.
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I'm not sure on Keane just yet. Looked a long way off the pace in his debut game. Not sure if that was just a consequence of us getting smashed in the clearances or whether he's actually just that far off the pace, but I'm leaning toward the latter.
 

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Hayden Maclean.... Sydney Swans 197cm. Just kicked a goal for the Swans. Supplemental pick.... so he was easily available. Sydney picked him to replace Tippett and get their numbers up in the tall forwards brigade. Remember they have the other Reid, the lizard and the other mccartin.....evidently not enough for them

Too tall?
 
Markfs said:
I thought that I would post a serious thread about something that has been spoken about but I wanted to look at the actual list. First, I will list all the so-called Talls

Brodie Grundy
Darcy Cameron
Ben Reid
Jordan Roughhead
Will Kelly
Darcy Moore
Max Lynch
Mason Cox
Mark Keane
Troy Wilson

There are four guys about 192cm. Ruscoe has been listed as 190cm. He certainly plays like a utility. Dunn is supposed to be a tall but isnt. Jack is neither here nor there.

Lynden Dunn
Jack Madgen
Brody Mihocek
Trey Ruscoe

Now I do admit that we have a large number of guys who are around 190cm. These guys arent short but I dont see any of them standing beside the large forwards in the AFL. In fact, when you look at it, only roughhead moore and keane can take lynch or dixon. To me, that's a bit thin.

So the first question is out of all those players, how many had Derek Hine recruited?
Grundy and Reid and Lynch and Ruscoe, yes. Cameron, Roughhead, Dunn were traded. Kelly and Moore were father sons. Cox, Keane, Wilson and Madgen came from "outside sources". Mihocek was a known quantity as a mature ager.

So out of those 4 players that Derek actually selected, Grundy was a good pick, although he was acknowledged as being a good player but recruiters were shy of ruckmen in the first round. Reid was a good pick but he was known as a talented kid. Lynch has shown he is a good VFL player and then there is Ruscoe.

So the club has tried to get talls from outside sources, rather than try to pick a local kid in the 4th or 5th round, and also from trades. It's a very safe strategy regarding the trades, and a real hit and miss when it comes to recruiting non-football sportsmen.

So looking at it another way, there are two star players, a good solid utility forward, a couple of youngsters and a motley crew leftover. I'd like to have a look at other teams but I wouldnt think that the Collingwood talls are anything to rave about.

In the end, I find the whole talls strategy strange. Is it because Derek can't spot talented talls when they're 18? Do they think that talls need to be older? Why hasnt the club picked a couple of speculative 196cm talls in the 4th or 5th round? I'm completely lost on this......
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Tohill?
 
maace said:
That's exactly what I do in China!
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Be careful after what happened to those two Australian journos who returned today. They're gunning for us. 7 police at midnight with camera and spotlight will give you something to think about.
 
Markfs said:
So we get to the 2016 draft and take Kayle Kirby at Pick 50. We need indigenous players so on face value it was a good pick...

but the next pick was Elliott Himmelberg. 198cm. His brother Harry was pick 15 in the previous draft.....

Too tall?
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Just about bog last night

Pattern emerges
Both he and Cameron's family watching ,best games Thebe played for A while

Same as Coxy
 

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Markfs said:
Moore up forward is an option. I think they put him back to take the stress off his hamstrings etc. ...well thats my theory. But he's about 40% of the backline at the moment - marking contests with talls, intercepts, giving some run.... I think the backline would collapse without him.

I think they should give the irish boys a heart to heart. What does Keane wanna do if his mate goes home? And if he stops to think, put him on the first flight back. As for his talent, it's hard to judge. I dont think anyone could have done worse in a first game. And after a season in the VFL, I cant believe that a local kid wouldn't have shown about the same promise. It wasn't as if his athleticism shone out.

I would certainly play him ahead of Dunn. I'm still in shock about Dunn ....for the simple fact that we put him back on the list. It is the single most worrying decision that I've seen the club make in the last couple of years, ahead of refusing to move on some of the people on the board.
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Geez that a big call
Rekin there's a few other super cluster f,,K descision s we can nominate
Ben Reid re signing last two contractsb
Broomhead anyone
Drafting of sharenburg cause we've shown our medicos are the best

If it's Buckley insisting on email ball and forward pressure
Is it time
Is it Walsh
Imagine Collins and himmelberg

I wouldn't mind this team
Maynard Collins Howe

Crisp rough head quaynour

Moore pendels daicos

Sidey himmelberg checkers

Elliot Cox de goey

Grundy Adams treleor
Greenwood magden stepho seir

Very frustrating
 
Darkyprotector said:
Geez that a big call
Rekin there's a few other super cluster f,,K descision s we can nominate
Ben Reid re signing last two contractsb
Broomhead anyone
Drafting of sharenburg cause we've shown our medicos are the best
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broomhead was resigned because he was trying his guts out when he broke his leg. If you dump a guy when he breaks his leg, you are basically telling the rest of the group to think twice about committing your body. This isnt the gridiron league. Americans tolerate being treated like a piece of meat. The other aspect is that broomhead is a close mate of grundy. I dont have to say more.
If ben reid wage was adjusted to reflect his inability to play, I wouldnt gripe about him being maintained on the list in the past.
 
Darkyprotector said:
Add Keefe

This could be related to the Billy Morrison experiment
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And corey gault. There is a part of me that thinks that Derek doesnt like picking talls because he isnt that good at it. He doesnt get the immediate pat on the back that he gets when he drafts a smaller player at pick 50 and they play 18 months later. Elliott Himmelberg got drafted 4 years ago. It's a long haul for talls to mature.

Has the club just given up on the ability of Derek to pick good talls, and has decided to use the international rookie and trade methods to cover up Derek's inability to deliver?

It sounds like fantasy but I'm serious about this.
 
Markfs said:
broomhead was resigned because he was trying his guts out when he broke his leg. If you dump a guy when he breaks his leg, you are basically telling the rest of the group to think twice about committing your body. This isnt the gridiron league. Americans tolerate being treated like a piece of meat. The other aspect is that broomhead is a close mate of grundy. I dont have to say more.
If ben reid wage was adjusted to reflect his inability to play, I wouldnt gripe about him being maintained on the list in the past.
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No disagree
We have what 43 players
Reid
Broomhead
Dunn
Greenwood
Cox
Langdon
Murphy
All comming of serious off season stuff
Only guy who's made it on the park was legally blind
Tohill
Lynch
Keene
Wilson
Kelly
All miles off it
So that 12 guys
Then add
Atu
Bianco
Rantall
Ruscoe
So that's 16
Add sharenburg for 17 or seir for 18 who are it seems alway having issues
I haven't mentioned
T brown
C brown
Wills
Cameron
Ect ect ect

So if we're bagging our development
And rightly so

It all comes down to retention of players and making sure that you make the right calls
Not over estimating the list

So unless Cox improves which depends on support (currently not there) or decent entries are sent his way
( Not happening either)
We're gonna have to hope
Tohill
Keene
Kelly
Come good
As we simply won't be able to afford our best clearance player to be stuck at full forward all game

Which may mean a big move
We give up who?

So who's gonna get us a gun kpf
We won't have space for a superstar
 
Markfs said:
And corey gault. There is a part of me that thinks that Derek doesnt like picking talls because he isnt that good at it. He doesnt get the immediate pat on the back that he gets when he drafts a smaller player at pick 50 and they play 18 months later. Elliott Himmelberg got drafted 4 years ago. It's a long haul for talls to mature.

Has the club just given up on the ability of Derek to pick good talls, and has decided to use the international rookie and trade methods to cover up Derek's inability to deliver?

It sounds like fantasy but I'm serious about this.
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I agree we have imo fallen for the cross code athletes
We did well with pendels so it works lol

Which gives us no football awareness

Poor depth
 

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magpies42 said:
Was that the guy we picked up from Tassie that kicked a bag of 10 in a local scratch match...and did nothing else for his career?
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Yeah as a 15 year old or some crap.

Here is his draft write up by Colin Wisbey:

----------------------------------------------------------------
Billy Morrison (Tassie Mariners)

192/97 bottom age right foot KPP.

6'4" mobile tank along the lines of Johnathon Brown who can play at either end.

'03 is a year short on talls (damn puns!) and even shorter on good ones and almost devoid of inside good ones, the best of whom are slim. Nothing testifies more to that than the fact that I have at No. 8 (although he will probably go about 10 or more picks later than that) a guy who has been out injured all year, whose U18 form last year was very promising in glimpses but inconsistent (he tended to be in and out of a game in bursts) and soso statistically. And I have only seen him live twice.

Yes he is a risk, and a largely unproven one (unless you count one very good U16 game in '01). That said, I was very impressed by the snippet he showed last year and marked him at the time as a potential top talent, despite the stats. That's about all I have to go on but with so many clubs crying out for a serious inside mobile KPP who is physically strong and a genuine footballer, I kept going over and over the other options and kept coming back to Morrison each time. In another year I might rate him, because of the little he has actually proven, as a 2nd rounder. This year, though, if his type is what you want you are going to have to pay an unfairly expensive price. Will be ready in year 2, maybe year 1, depending on how quickly he gains touch after such a long lay-off. Probably go a bit later than I rate him.

*STYLE LIKE: Jonathon Brown (though not quite as physical).

*TRADEMARK:
- Big grab on a lead at CHF.

*SUMMARY ASSESSMENT, RECOMMENDATION:

There is a golden rule that you don't take unnecessary risks with a first round draft pick. As I mentioned, though, circumstances this year are unusual in that most of the U18 KPPs and rucks are outside types. At the very least, most lack physical presence.
I rate Morrison, despite no '03 form to gauge, a first round pick. At the risk of sounding unprofessional, I concede up front that I have taken what amounts to limited snippets (compared to the welter of games and tapes I study for other players) from the little I have seen of Morrison in the past and taken a fair bit of liberty in extrapolating in order to assess his value.

In the end, here is what influenced me to rate him above all the other U18 tall KPP types (Clarke is not strictly KPP):-

1. Build like Jonathon Brown and, unlike almost all his '03 draft rivals, has physical presence and intensity.

2. One-grab pack mark and from any position.

3. Has a big leap and is very agile for size. Moves well - is balanced, very mobile & has good enough pace.

4. Demands the ball and gives a real point of focus at half forward.

5. He has a footy brain and can think quickly.

5. Versatility. Should be capable of playing any key position. I suspect his best will be CHF but also has attributes that suit CHB (and he played there a little bit in '02). Played a bit on HFF last year and, despite his bulk, could potentially do so in a pinch even at AFL level, providing his opponent wasn't particularly quick. He could also be the 3rd tall defender, and may start in that role at AFL level.

6. Is a big boy (by any criteria) who, although he may need chiselling, is not a project physique-wise.

7. Has a good ethic - chases, blocks etc and is quite good below the knees.

8. Nice kicking style and gets good depth. Is no Matthew Lloyd but can kick a goal set kick or on the run and/or from a tight angle and/or from 50+ metres.

For a very big-bodied guy who has been off the scene for a year, it is credit to him that he presented in surprisingly good nick at the Draft camp. Performed extremely well in the demanding events (Beep, 3Km) and Agility, beating over 70% of the near 170 attendees in each. 20m time of 3.09 was good for him at this stage (beating 37%) although 5m time was ordinary and leap only fair. My reading of his results is sympathic to the time it takes to recover full fitness after such a long lay-off and, in that, light, I am extremely encouraged.

*OTHER STUFF:
- AIS
- N/A for any games '03 - injured his shouder pre Ireland, requiring shoulder reconstruction.

by Colin Wisbey.
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loki04 said:
Yeah as a 15 year old or some crap.

Here is his draft write up by Colin Wisbey:
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It was a crap year for drafting, full stop. I think if you pick out one of Derek's picks and hang shit on it, then its a little unfair. To me, the main problem is that he isnt drafting 195cm + players at all. It seems to be a club strategy.
 
Geez, just 24 months ago, I was pretty confident of DeGoey, Elliot, Cox, Mihocek, WHE & Stevo kicking us a winning score most weeks and putting us close to a flag over the next season or two! More like despair on just how we are going to kick goals at all these days.
 

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