Unsolved Taman Shud Case

BlueE

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Everyone has a deck of cards, but a Lady showing the Queen of Spades apparently is a message to those who know what it means. Maybe the Rubyiat had a similar usage to a group of people that recognised it under certain circumstances as a message, or invitation?

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One off copies, so could be a cyfer pad.

But thinking the copy Jessica gave to Alf Boxall and him saying maybe someone told her he was in Intelligence, was it a message from one Intelligence group to another telling them to keep away from them or something?

Can't help thinking the George Marshall one had something to do with the British?
 

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petedavo

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One off copies, so could be a cyfer pad.

But thinking the copy Jessica gave to Alf Boxall and him saying maybe someone told her he was in Intelligence, was it a message from one Intelligence group to another telling them to keep away from them or something?

Can't help thinking the George Marshall one had something to do with the British?
Probably only one or two people would be able to answer that question. But Robert Hemblys-Scales has departed the earth now, and what he briefed Sillitoe and Hollis that hasn't already come to light, probably never will.

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petedavo

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Some minor background to British machinations in Australia at the time of SM's death.


How Evatt outfoxed MI5 https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/how-herbert-doc-evatt-outwitted-mi5/news-story/579466afe6ac2fb738b1ac7234f157ce

US alliance was off to a shaky start https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/amateur-hour-diplomacy-got-us-alliance-off-to-a-shaky-start/news-story/890d9bd1593e50c639898a001dc5bcde

British lessons in the spying game https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/british-lessons-in-the-spying-game/news-story/0bc46c4f73f6d7e3623b25b672bfebac


Personnel assigned to the Canberra Station 1949»

MI6 officer Robert Hemblys-Scales

Biography (take note of ex wife in regards to music and dance)
Ex Wife's depositions at National Archives mentioned above

MI5 officer Courtenay Young

Prior to posting to Canberra»
CIFE Combined Intelligece Far East
MI5's regional organisation in the Far East during WWII. Established in 1943 at Kandy (Ceylon) by Courtenay Young, who was MI5's only Japanese-speaking officer

After Canberra, Courtenay Young was posted to»

Security Intelligence Far East (SIFE) in 1952
 
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petedavo

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Courtenay Young was Alexander Foote's ghost writer. He seems to of deliberately obscured the truth to hide some identities within it. Courtenay Young seems to have an interesting relationship to Anthony Blunt and the Cambridge 5 and a penchant for blaming communism for all the ills of the world, maybe somewhat rabidly?

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peteb

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Not according the Adelaide Police interviewed by Stuart Littlemore. They had no idea what Tamam Shud meant until told by a journalist.

There is quite a bit of detail at the Inquest about finding an identical copy in an Adelaide bookshop, but not sure how when all three Rubyiats, Boxall's 7th Methuan edition when only 5 editions printed, SM's Whitcome and Tomes edition and George Marshall's may all be only copies.
The problem the police had was in interpreting the words Tamam Shud, not with the availability of the book.
 

peteb

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In addition: Littlemore says in his Boxall interview that Alf met ‘Jestyn’ at the Clifton Gardens ... I am unable to find where he got this information about Jessica being called Jestyn. She never admitted to it and neither did Boxall.
 

peteb

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This collection could be a lead.
Tania Virginia Teppema time in Massachusetts in 1944 seems particularly interesting. Maybe someone should go down to the archives and have a look through this?



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Hembly-Scales was present at the meeting with Roger Hollis, Ben Chifley and Doc Evatt, where the Englishmen were forced to admit that the information they had received about leaks of classified information in Canberra came from decoded Venona cables. Until then the Venona project had been kept secret, despite there being a cable station in Gawler (SA) that assisted them.
 
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peteb

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In addition:

‘Olag Gordievsky, a KGB agent and MI6 mole, laid to rest the conspiracy theory that Roger Hollis, the former chief of MI5, was a Soviet mole.’

The Spy and the Traitor: Ben Macintyre.
 

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petedavo

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Nothing much to go with Dutch Intelligence Services that could point to a link to SM other than Robert Hemblys-Scales father-in-law being a Dutch Diplomat.



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Mycroft

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I'm hopeful that the science will resolve SM's identity soon. I brought forward the Reynolds 1918 seaman's I.D. (in mid-2010) for examination by Adelaide University comparative expert Maciej Henneberg. I can tell you that my father (Max McIntyre) certainly believed the I.D. belonged to the deceased man found on Somerton beach in 1948, hence my seeking out confirmation via the University. That was 9 years ago. Police were informed at the time, and my father was eventually interviewed. Then early last year I was contacted by Renee Blackie from Flinder's University Forensics DNA Laboratory. Ms. Blackie had been doing her own investigations into SM, and she'd done some follow up on the I.D. card's origins. Going back to 2010 when the I.D. was first examined, we didn't know whether the person named on the I.D. card was the same man as shown in the photo, and it's the photo that gave the positive comparative match to SM. So in early 2018 Ms. Blackie and her colleague visited me a few times and they shared their findings. The forensic interest in SM, was whether a DNA sample that old, likely somewhat degraded, could be taken from SM's plaster cast and still give good results via their new DNA testing techniques. First, permission was sought from Adelaide Major Crime to access SM's bust. Samples were successfully gathered by Ms. Blackie in May 2018. She'd hoped to have a result within a few weeks, however Major Crime chose instead, that SM's samples would go to the Forensic Science S.A. facility, sighting 'chain of evidence' rules. That was 15 months ago, and no-one's heard anything since.
 

petedavo

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I'm hopeful that the science will resolve SM's identity soon. I brought forward the Reynolds 1918 seaman's I.D. (in mid-2010) for examination by Adelaide University comparative expert Maciej Henneberg. I can tell you that my father (Max McIntyre) certainly believed the I.D. belonged to the deceased man found on Somerton beach in 1948, hence my seeking out confirmation via the University. That was 9 years ago. Police were informed at the time, and my father was eventually interviewed. Then early last year I was contacted by Renee Blackie from Flinder's University Forensics DNA Laboratory. Ms. Blackie had been doing her own investigations into SM, and she'd done some follow up on the I.D. card's origins. Going back to 2010 when the I.D. was first examined, we didn't know whether the person named on the I.D. card was the same man as shown in the photo, and it's the photo that gave the positive comparative match to SM. So in early 2018 Ms. Blackie and her colleague visited me a few times and they shared their findings. The forensic interest in SM, was whether a DNA sample that old, likely somewhat degraded, could be taken from SM's plaster cast and still give good results via their new DNA testing techniques. First, permission was sought from Adelaide Major Crime to access SM's bust. Samples were successfully gathered by Ms. Blackie in May 2018. She'd hoped to have a result within a few weeks, however Major Crime chose instead, that SM's samples would go to the Forensic Science S.A. facility, sighting 'chain of evidence' rules. That was 15 months ago, and no-one's heard anything since.
Thanks. Do you have any further information about Reynolds?

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BlueE

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Bryant & May made matches under the famous RedHeads trademark.

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From what could find out they were marketed under Bryant and May until 1947, then the redhead brand from the same company.

Can anyone tell whether they were Bryant and May or what was written on the matches box?

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BlueE

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I'm hopeful that the science will resolve SM's identity soon. I brought forward the Reynolds 1918 seaman's I.D. (in mid-2010) for examination by Adelaide University comparative expert Maciej Henneberg. I can tell you that my father (Max McIntyre) certainly believed the I.D. belonged to the deceased man found on Somerton beach in 1948, hence my seeking out confirmation via the University. That was 9 years ago. Police were informed at the time, and my father was eventually interviewed. Then early last year I was contacted by Renee Blackie from Flinder's University Forensics DNA Laboratory. Ms. Blackie had been doing her own investigations into SM, and she'd done some follow up on the I.D. card's origins. Going back to 2010 when the I.D. was first examined, we didn't know whether the person named on the I.D. card was the same man as shown in the photo, and it's the photo that gave the positive comparative match to SM. So in early 2018 Ms. Blackie and her colleague visited me a few times and they shared their findings. The forensic interest in SM, was whether a DNA sample that old, likely somewhat degraded, could be taken from SM's plaster cast and still give good results via their new DNA testing techniques. First, permission was sought from Adelaide Major Crime to access SM's bust. Samples were successfully gathered by Ms. Blackie in May 2018. She'd hoped to have a result within a few weeks, however Major Crime chose instead, that SM's samples would go to the Forensic Science S.A. facility, sighting 'chain of evidence' rules. That was 15 months ago, and no-one's heard anything since.
Did you find this ID at your fathers house?

Do you think it's possible you father faked an ID for Reynolds?

If the photo for Somerton Man is not really him with the bust and written description of him being very different, but the ID matches the photo as you're saying, could this indicate the ID was part of an attempt to mislead the public from the true identity of SM?

Could your father have been involved in making a fake ID to help police mislead in this way?
 

BlueE

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In addition: Littlemore says in his Boxall interview that Alf met ‘Jestyn’ at the Clifton Gardens ... I am unable to find where he got this information about Jessica being called Jestyn. She never admitted to it and neither did Boxall.
I think it was Boxall that said Jestyn gave him the book in the interview with Littlemore. I'll have to go back and watch Pt 3 again.

However the way he said the name "Jestyn" very slowing and pointedly made me think at first listen that he sounds like he's re-planned saying the name.

I thought it was strange immediately and wondered if he deliberately said that to throw some shade back at her as he was pissed at being "dragged into this" or more likely he could have said that to hide that it was a Major Jestyn that inscribed the book?

Knowing that her name was suppressed at the time, he may be saying it was Jestyn gave him the book, meaning Jessica?
 

petedavo

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In addition: Littlemore says in his Boxall interview that Alf met ‘Jestyn’ at the Clifton Gardens ... I am unable to find where he got this information about Jessica being called Jestyn. She never admitted to it and neither did Boxall.
"Jestyn" seems to be more masculine than Jessica. Sort of like a stage name for a girl who plays male roles.

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petedavo

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This collection could be a lead.
Tania Virginia Teppema time in Massachusetts in 1944 seems particularly interesting. Maybe someone should go down to the archives and have a look through this?



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Hemblys-Scales and Teppema marriage never produced children

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petedavo

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I agree but there is major evidence tampering if you think like me that the photograph was of a different person! I hadn't realised that Det-Sgt Leane got a promotion to ASIO (mentioned in the doco) so maybe a reward for keeping the pesky pubic off the scent?

Alf Boxall was very unhappy to have been mentioned by Jessica and having to explain how she gave him a copy of the Rubaiyat. Asked about verse 70 which was copied on the inside cover which was about redemption. Then angry when Littlemore started to ask him about being in Army Intelligence :oops:

SL. "Mr Boxall, you had been working in an Intelligence unit before you met her. Did you talk about that at all?"

AB. “No.”

SL."Was it not done to speak about those things?”

AB. "Well it was not done to speak about any army affairs."

SL. "So she couldn’t have known about your involvement with Army Intelligence?"

Long pause……

AB. "Not unless someone else told her!"

SL. "Because you see what I’m getting at. There is a theory isn’t there about this whole affair that the man on the beach was a spy … of some kind?"

AB. "Umm …It’s a … Cough …Quite a melodramatic thesis isn’t it?"
Leane gets a job where Hollis and Hemblys-Scales were the recruiters

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petedavo

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Courtenay Young was Alexander Foote's ghost writer. He seems to of deliberately obscured the truth to hide some identities within it. Courtenay Young seems to have an interesting relationship to Anthony Blunt and the Cambridge 5 and a penchant for blaming communism for all the ills of the world, maybe somewhat rabidly?

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Didn't I read somewhere that some of these spooks recruited from Cambridge by MI5 batted for both sides? And I'm not talking about espionage here. But then again such sexual relationship choices were illegal in those days, and could snuff a spooks career because it'd give a foreign adversity a lever for blackmailing a spook to become a mole.

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petedavo

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Just read up on this for the first time: equal parts fascinating and bizarre.

I'm surprised no one in this thread has mentioned two huge pieces of information on the case's Wikipedia page. Firstly, both the Somerton Man and Jestyn's son (who died in 2009) share very rare ear and dental traits.



That's pretty conclusive if you ask me. So Jestyn knew him, no doubt in the world, and her kid was his. Did she know this? You'd have to think so, because of her profound eagerness to find a husband not long after Boxall/leaving Sydney/possible related murder. She rushes off to Melbourne from Sydney already pregnant to marry, and even changes her name to adopt her husband's name before they get married in Adelaide.

Although I don't think Boxall has anything to to with this at all: my reaction is that Jestyn had an intense fascination with this book and probably had a copy on her wherever she was and routinely gave them out to people she met/blokes she did. Boxall's only connection with this is that he just happen to be given a different copy of the same book that the Taman Shud tear-out came from. She gave Boxall a copy, a fairly recent edition, published in Australia.

The Taman Shud tear-out copy the Somerton Man (I believe) had in his possession (before tossing it in some guy's car, complete with phone number and code after an unsatisfactory meeting/confrontation with Jestyn) was a very old and rare edition, probably a gift he had brought for Jestyn after he'd finally tracked her down in Adelaide. Where/when was the first meeting of the Somerton Man and Jestyn? With her obsession with the book, she surely told him all about it. How long did it take for him to find her address and unlisted phone number? The mind boggles.

I'm not buying the whole spy angle. But the fact his clothes were expensive and foreign, with all the labels removes except for the 'Keane' logos on the clothes in the suitcase certainly implies he was of at least mild importance or status wherever he came from.

And then there's this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taman_Shud_Case

I assume you Adelaide guys know all about it. How reliable is this testimony considered? Possibly a fake name used to get into the army? (Seeing as the age is 18, he may have lied his way into the army re age as well as name?)

So here's how I see it:
Jestyn has crazy obsession with The Rubaiyat and everybody she ever meets knows this
Meets Somerton Man in Sydney in late 1946 (in similar circumstances to Boxall) and gets pregnant to him
Jestyn moves to Melbourne soon after, seeking husband, has baby in 1947
She deliberately cuts contact with Somerton Man
Two years later, Somerton Man tracks her down to her Adelaide address and unlisted phone number (who gave these to him? Government connections with this information? This would fit into the spy theory)
He arrives in Adelaide on 30 Nov 1948 with a very rare edition of The Rubaiyat as a gift for her, leaves most of his stuff in the clockroom at the train station
He goes straight to her address and she rejects him
He tears "Taman Shud" out of the book (knowing exactly what it means) and dumps the book in an unlocked car
Sews the "Taman Shud" tear-out into his pants for some insane reason
Goes down to the beach only 400m from her door and commits suicide under the cover of darkness

Don't ask me to explain the code or his (or Jestyn's - did she poison him during their meeting earlier in the day?) access to an unidentifiable poison, just mystifying. Exhume the body already you lousy SA government!
Interesting theory, but fathering a child doesn't happen always due to a romantic affair. Lesbians get sperm donors for instance when they want a child.
The Rubaiyat could be a message to people that knows what the message is, like being LGBT for instance.
The autopsy is interesting. I haven't read it yet, but what's missing is more interesting. No wedding ring, nor evidence of one.
SM seems to be described as having a liver problem. I wonder if he was dying and knew it.
It makes me wonder if he just wanted to pass on something to this Jessica and the child before he couldn't do it anymore because of this medical issue.
Did he euthanize himself after his mission was done? The message hidden in the coat could suggest so.
If Jessica recognised him why not say so?


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