Unsolved Taman Shud Case - The Somerton Man

[BlueE]

I think I listened to this today

One question arose : Have they had any success from the DNA Geanological companies tested? ie any hits that seem odd

I'm hoping the next episode address that question. From what I understand and I could be wrong, is that hair with DNA that Doctor of forensic science Renee Blackie had permission to extract from the plaster cast, was taken from her by the Adelaide Major Crime squad, and their Forensics Department was analysing it.

Dr Blackie was expecting results in a couple of weeks in June 7th 2018 when this article was printed. As far as we know, it hasn't been genealogically tested.

New hope in Adelaide cold case of the Somerton Man - CityMag

Writer Aimee Knight (on the right in the image above) and doctor of forensic science Renee Blackie were initially drawn to the Somerton Man case for the same reasons most of us are. “It’s like any good mystery,” says Renee. “I always look at mysteries like a puzzle and I feel like with this case […]

citymag.indaily.com.au

 

[GreyCrow]

I'm hoping the next episode address that question. From what I understand and I could be wrong, is that hair with DNA that Doctor of forensic science Renee Blackie had permission to extract from the plaster cast, was taken from her by the Adelaide Major Crime squad, and their Forensics Department was analysing it.

Dr Blackie was expecting results in a couple of weeks in June 7th 2018 when this article was printed. As far as we know, it hasn't been genealogically tested.

New hope in Adelaide cold case of the Somerton Man - CityMag

Writer Aimee Knight (on the right in the image above) and doctor of forensic science Renee Blackie were initially drawn to the Somerton Man case for the same reasons most of us are. “It’s like any good mystery,” says Renee. “I always look at mysteries like a puzzle and I feel like with this case […]

citymag.indaily.com.au

I thought Rachel Abbott-Thompson had her DNA done and distributed?

 

[BlueE]

I thought Rachel Abbott-Thompson had her DNA done and distributed?

Different senario. That was in 2016 and there was a couple of articles on the ancestors they found concentrated in the north east of America and also Scandinavia I think. Relies on the premise that SM is Rachel's grandfather.

They only did a simple test on the hair which showed it had viable DNA without further analysing it, where as Dr Renee Blackie used a new technique to get valid DNA from SM's hair taken from the plaster.

DNA Just Tied A Mystery Death In Australia To Thomas Jefferson

An unidentified man found dead on an Australian beach has baffled investigators for decades. A new DNA analysis links the “Somerton Man” to Thomas Jefferson and Native Americans.

www.buzzfeednews.com

After years of forensic investigation, Somerton Man's identity remains a mystery (Part 2: DNA, isotopes, and autopsy)

(Phys.org)—This is the second part of a two-part story about the forensic investigation of the Somerton Man. Read "Part 1: History and Code" here.

phys.org

 

[peteb]

I thought Rachel Abbott-Thompson had her DNA done and distributed?

GreyCrow .. were you aware the hair samples were seized by SA Major Crime?

 

[Kurve]

Here it is.

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Murder victim of a just solved forty year old cold case was Roxlyn Bowie from NSW which is where I picked this book up from. Probably means nothing but I'll just give it a bit of a bump.

Her body has never been found.

PS. Those odd looking sets of numbers wouldn't be coordinates, would they?

 

[GreyCrow]

Murder victim of a just solved forty year old cold case was Roxlyn Bowie from NSW which is where I picked this book up from. Probably means nothing but I'll just give it a bit of a bump.

Her body has never been found.

PS. Those odd looking sets of numbers wouldn't be coordinates, would they?

Not coordinates. They are lighter and under the signature ie older

First thought was printing run numbers.

 

[GreyCrow]

GreyCrow .. were you aware the hair samples were seized by SA Major Crime?

No I am not aware

 

[peteb]

No I am not aware

My faulty memory tells me exhumation as requested by Prof Abbott’s team was initially rejected by the SA govt. because familial reasons didn’t warrant the exercise. .. or something like that. If indeed that was the case, there must be another reason for seizing the hair samples.

 

[peteb]

Matches ... did Moss miss them, or are we to believe his Deposition ?

 

[BlueE]

My faulty memory tells me exhumation as requested by Prof Abbott’s team was initially rejected by the SA govt. because familial reasons didn’t warrant the exercise. .. or something like that. If indeed that was the case, there must be another reason for seizing the hair samples.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Prof Abbott, nothing that I can tell.

As far as I'm aware this is still an open investigation and when Dr Renee Blaikie found viable DNA from the hair sample she received permission to test with advanced analysis, SA Major Crime Sqd took the sample off her because they wanted to apply criminal chain of custody standards to the sample.

That was 17 months ago, so why haven't the Forensic Analysis department of the SA Major Crime Squad announced any results?

Also there must be 0% chance of getting a conviction after 72 years so not sure why the SA major crime squad is involved. I think what everyone wants in to find out the Identity of SM which is not a crime is it?

With current up to date DNA analysis techniques used in conjunction with genealogical specialists to identify at least 16 individuals over the last year the Somerton Man's identity should have been solved by now, or maybe it has and is still being suppressed.

 

[peteb]

I'm not sure what this has to do with Prof Abbott, nothing that I can tell.

As far as I'm aware this is still an open investigation and when Dr Renee Blaikie found viable DNA from the hair sample she received permission to test with advanced analysis, SA Major Crime Sqd took the sample off her because they wanted to apply criminal chain of custody standards to the sample.

That was 17 months ago, so why haven't the Forensic Analysis department of the SA Major Crime Squad announced any results?

With current up to date DNA analysis techniques used in conjunction with genealogical specialists to identify at least 16 individuals over the last year the Somerton Man's identity should have been solved by now, or maybe it has and is still being suppressed.

In layman’s terms, how would his DNA provide us with an identity.

 

[BlueE]

Matches ... did Moss miss them, or are we to believe his Deposition ?

Whose disposition? Not Moss's

Cigarette ... did Moss mistakenly say the unknown man had a partially smoked cigarette, more had been smoked that not that had dropped from his mouth onto the right collar of his coat held in position by his cheek, or do we believe Cleland when he added to the witness Mr Lyon's statement that there was a cigarette that had never been lit above the unknown man's ear?

There are many small details that look like Cleland who had communist dealings and clients and Det Sgt Leane who went to work for the newly formed ASIO soon after the Inquest may have had their own separate ulterior motives to promote a certain narrative.

In my opinion those are just minor discrepancies compared with the photographers sworn statement that finished mid sentence and may not have even been signed by him. It's the only page in the depositions that has Cleland signing in the middle or just to the left of the page and someone signing for the photographer on the right. Every other page of every affidavit had Cleland signing on the fight of the page. This would not be accepted in any sworn affidavit that I'm aware.

The photographer did say he took photos of the piece of paper and the writings found on the deceased. So why did the story come out months later of Cleland finding the Tamam Shud paper in the fob pocket which was on every men's pair of trousers at the time and would certainly have been found at the time of examining the unknown man?

The other major discrepancy I'm surprised if you're into going over details you don't mention, is Det Brown spending two pages in his affidavit describing how he found the Collins published version of the Rubaiyat in the local Adelaide bookstore that matched the exact paper, colour and font of the Tamam Shud. Then a Whitcome and Tomes version was said to be found after the Inquest that was said to be the Rubaiyat even thought the paper or the font didn't match.

There is much covering up done at the time and circular arguments been going on for years that can be solved immediately with up to date DNA analysis currently available. I'm excited that we can soon know the identity of the unknown man and if secrets needed to be kept at the time can't see a reason why this wold still matter now.

 

[BlueE]

In layman’s terms, how would his DNA provide us with an identity.

Read the article on Cold Cases I posted some days ago and had in my other reply to you and watch the short you tube video that explain clearly the processes that were used.

Edit: the you tube video is far better for discussing the analysis of the DNA and how they found the identities. Play at 1.5 speed to make it go quicker.

They discuss the Canadian case who they say is the first to be successfully prosecuted using DNA with genealogical experts and also the Golden State killer who was identified in the same manner, but has yet to go to trial.

 

[peteb]

Read the article on Cold Cases I posted some days ago and had in my other reply to you and watch the short you tube video that explain clearly the processes that were used.

Edit: the you tube video is far better for discussing the analysis of the DNA and how they found the identities. Play at 1.5 speed to make it go quicker.

They discuss the Canadian case who they say is the first to be successfully prosecuted using DNA with genealogical experts and also the Golden State killer who was identified in the same manner, but has yet to go to trial.

I’d much prefer your understanding of it ...

 

[peteb]

Whose disposition? Not Moss's

Cigarette ... did Moss mistakenly say the unknown man had a partially smoked cigarette, more had been smoked that not that had dropped from his mouth onto the right collar of his coat held in position by his cheek, or do we believe Cleland when he added to the witness Mr Lyon's statement that there was a cigarette that had never been lit above the unknown man's ear?

There are many small details that look like Cleland who had communist dealings and clients and Det Sgt Leane who went to work for the newly formed ASIO soon after the Inquest may have had their own separate ulterior motives to promote a certain narrative.

In my opinion those are just minor discrepancies compared with the photographers sworn statement that finished mid sentence and may not have even been signed by him. It's the only page in the depositions that has Cleland signing in the middle or just to the left of the page and someone signing for the photographer on the right. Every other page of every affidavit had Cleland signing on the fight of the page. This would not be accepted in any sworn affidavit that I'm aware.

The photographer did say he took photos of the piece of paper and the writings found on the deceased. So why did the story come out months later of Cleland finding the Tamam Shud paper in the fob pocket which was on every men's pair of trousers at the time and would certainly have been found at the time of examining the unknown man?

The other major discrepancy I'm surprised if you're into going over details you don't mention, is Det Brown spending two pages in his affidavit describing how he found the Collins published version of the Rubaiyat in the local Adelaide bookstore that matched the exact paper, colour and font of the Tamam Shud. Then a Whitcome and Tomes version was said to be found after the Inquest that was said to be the Rubaiyat even thought the paper or the font didn't match.

There is much covering up done at the time and circular arguments been going on for years that can be solved immediately with up to date DNA analysis currently available. I'm excited that we can soon know the identity of the unknown man and if secrets needed to be kept at the time can't see a reason why this wold still matter now.

Yes, PC Moss’ Deposition - his sworn statement submitted to the inquest. Are you familiar with it?

 

[BlueE]

Yes, PC Moss’ Deposition - his sworn statement submitted to the inquest. Are you familiar with it?

I just quoted from it about the cigarette.

And many other more serious discrepancies from the sworn affidavits.

 

[BlueE]

I’d much prefer your understanding of it ...

Now you're playing games I'm not going to be part of. If you understand but you're just testing me ...

By the way you have no permission to copy my comments to another blog somewhere to discuss publically and then get annoyed if you ask for permission afterwards.

It's not only annoying it probably against big footy rules.

 

[Redacted]

10 Nov 1953 - Somerton Body Mystery - The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA) Reader suggests that Somerton Man might be an American trapeze artist with Wirth's Circus. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article48923706

25 Nov 1948 - Circus Star Weds - The Age (Melbourne, Vic.) American trapeze artist with Wirth's Circus, the great Millette. Appears to be very much alive. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205679309
25 Nov 1948 - SHOW ROMANCES - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) And it confirms that Wirth's Circus was in Melbourne in November 1948. Here is a picture of the great Millette. Not very clear one though. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22704514
27 Nov 1948 - STAR TRAPEZE ARTIST WEDS MISS EDNA FRANKS - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic.) Gets wed and performs in the circus that night. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162543764

27 Aug 1948 - Advertising - The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA) Job advert for Wirth's Circus does confirm that the circus was in Adelaide for part of 1948, as per the letter to the editor writer's recollection. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article43780562

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[Redacted]

1948. Wirth's Circus advertisers a trapeze act as The four flying Wayne's from America.
08 May 1948 - Wirth's Circus - Barrier Miner (Broken Hill, NSW) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article48511416

1950. Only 1 Wayne is left.
21 Sep 1950 - BACK STAGE - Chronicle (Adelaide, SA) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93782546

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[Redacted]

1948. Wirth's Circus advertisers a trapeze act as The four flying Wayne's from America.
08 May 1948 - Wirth's Circus - Barrier Miner (Broken Hill, NSW) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article48511416

1950. Only 1 Wayne is left.
21 Sep 1950 - BACK STAGE - Chronicle (Adelaide, SA) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93782546

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Apparently, 1 of the 4 Wayne's was actually named Red (nicknamed after his firey red hair, real na name, Eldred Sleeter). He returned to Australia to marry Gladys Wirth.
What's a foulard tie?
17 Aug 1949 - HE MARRIED THE BOSS - The Courier-Mail (Brisbane, Qld.) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49669323

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[Redacted]

Eldred Sleeter was previously in another trapeze act with his then wife during the 1930's with Wirth's Circus
28 Mar 1939 - The Flying Devards - Daily News (Sydney, NSW) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article236285833

He returned to the USA and joined the Navy during the war, gained a university degree, and returned to Austrralia in 1947. Appears to of returned on his own this time.
25 Mar 1947 - TRAPEZE ARTIST WHO HAS UNIVERSITY DEGREE - The Daily News (Perth, WA) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article78207356

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[Redacted]

I wonder if Eldred had a brother or other relative in the trapeze business?

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[Redacted]

I wonder if Eldred had a brother or other relative in the trapeze business?

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Had lots of friends who were

The Bloomington-Normal Circus Legacy: The Golden Age of Aerialists

Starting in the 1870s, the barns, icehouses, gymnasiums and empty theaters of central Illinois provided the practice sites for aerial performers whose names still command reverence in the annals of American circus history. Meet Fred Miltimore and the Green Brothers, runaways from the Fourth Ward...

books.google.com.au

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[peteb]

I just quoted from it about the cigarette.

And many other more serious discrepancies from the sworn affidavits.

No, you quoted from his disposition, whatever that is.

 

[Redacted]

Wayne Larey didn't mention any trapeze artists going missing in Australia in this article written over a year after the body was found on Somerton Beach.

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